TM Poll: Students help on landings

[Schaf 0]

Question: do you let your students help you on the landing?

On a normal canopy ride (no danger of landing off the dropzone, "normal" wind conditions, no problems to expect, ...) I tell my students to steer the canopy. First of all it saves my strength, but it also keeps the student occupied. Still I always have my hands in the toggles. But at about 600 feet I tell them to let the toggles go and I do the landing on my own. As for having to flare alone, I'd rather refuse a student too heavy for my limits than to let him help me on the landing.

[PhreeZone 15]

I'm a fairly scrawny kid that can't even bench half my weight. I have the student help me on all parts of the canopy flight and landing. It took some time to get used to saying "Not yet, not yet. not yet... FLARE!" but I can usually practice enough up high that the landings are not a problem. I can and have a few landings with no assistance, but I perfered the option with the student helping.

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[boxingrrl 0]

I'm such a newbie that I still have more tandems with experienced jumpers as passengers. Damn those front seat drivers-- they all wanted to do it themselves.

My real student(s) though, have helped. But the first one did exactly what the TI/E said could be a problem: He kept trying to flare on the not-yets. Picked up a little trick from one of the other posts about this. From now on I'll hang on to the risers until I'm ready for them to flare.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

It depends. If they are doing a good job of following commands under canopy (I always let them steer at altitude), then I will allow them to assist with landing. If they are sketchy and not following my instructions, then I will land un-assisted. That's the beauty of decent tandem mains; I never really need help to land them.

[tombuch 0]

I like students to help. First it conserves my energy, but more than that, tandem is a teaching tool and a student should learn to land. I consider every tandem jump a teaching/learning jump.

My objective has always been to open a bit high and get the student involved right away. I like to do at least three dual practice landings, then let them steer a bit without my help. I am always back in the toggles by pattern time, or if there are other parachutes nearby. Some students need extra coaching, but most can handle helping with the real landing. Some, obviously, are brain dead and I'll ask them to let go for the real landing...those are very rare.

Some students will freeze up, or stiff arm a landing even if their practice landing were fine. A good instructor will be solid on the toggles and should be able to both anticipate the problem and save those landings, although they won't always be pretty.

If we think of every tandem as a learning opportunity then it makes sense to let the student help. A whole bunch of first timers arrive believing skydiving is something way beyond their ability to master, and believing it's tough to fly a parachute. Getting the student involved throughout the jump helps them recognize they too can master the sport, and that improves self confidence and then drives return bookings.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
S&TA
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[skyjunior 0]

I let and encourage the student to fly the chute, but at about 1500 feet I take over. Letting the student fly involves them in a cool experience. I used to let the student help me land, but on a couple of occassions there was a little miscommunication and/or confusion on landing and since then I have just felt more comfortable doing it myself. If the student is going through the tandem progression program then I will encourage them to help me land.

PLEASE REMEMB

[AggieDave 6]

If its a fun tandem, I'm doing the landing.

If its a CatA or a CatB dive, they're helping. Even then, they don't seem to help much, they're just learning the motion (even after 3-5 practice flares after opening).

For instance, I did 8 tandems today and I landed each one, I was still good to go, but then again, I lift weights all the damn time and have added specific lifts to help with being a TM and specifically with flaring. I think it makes a HUGE difference.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[slotperfect 7]

For "training tandems' using the USPA Tandem Progression, all of my students help fly the canopy.

For e-ticket ride type tandems, I have a weight range rule of thumb. Anyone 180 lbs or heavier, I have them help me. I have a way of locking my thumbs around the rear risers with both sets of toggles in my hands that prevents a premature flare. I can flare for heavier people without there help, but after a full weekend of nothing but tandems I get tendonitis in my shoulders. I am intrigued by Dave's tandem-specific workout.

For reference, I most often jump a Sigma 370 tandem canopy.

Also, most TMs I know do not let their students help them land.

Arrive Safely

John

[iowa 0]

I always used to have them help land. Early last year a passenger dropped the toggles as I turned on final. After we landed the light bulb came on "that was a lot easier to land without fighting his adreniline".

After talking to other TIs that land without help I began doing all (except cat A, B and those that really want to) unaided. It is so much easier to nail the landing without saying, easy, easy, not yet, etc. and sometimes having to hold back pressure on those wound up young guys. Most of the girls and small guys wouldn't make much difference but unless they mind, I don't need thier help.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

[riggerrob 558]

Most of the time I ask students to help me steer and land.
Having the students' hands on toggles during turns reduces surprises - like their breakfast re-appearing.
I also like to practice the landing flare with students at about 3,000'. "Hands up, feet in front, hands up, wait, wait, ready, ready, pull, pull,pull!"
For some silly reason, student's instinctively lock their elbows and flare with their hands WAY out in front, a weak position at best.
When students try to flare with the toggles way out in front we both run out of steam half way through the flare, so I coach them about keeping their hands close to their chests while flaring.
If a student does not have enough arm muscle to help flare, then I tell them to garb their knees to correctly position their legs for landing. This also allows me to pull the toggles down the SIDE of my rib cage - my strongest angle.
Most students who lack arm muscle also have insufficient stomach muscles to lift their legs, a second reason to have them grab their knees.
And every once in a while you get a student who's ears quit - usually a psychological problem - so they are better off not touching the toggles PERIOD!

[DALAILAMA 0]

It really depends on the instructors strength and what kind of canopy you are jumping in certain conditions.
If I were jumping a 421 or an old 384 maybe, but if I were jumping an Icarus or a Sigma main, I do it all myself.
If I can't flare a tandem canopy by myself due to exhaustion then I don't do tandems. It really is that simple!
I had a 240lb. University of Auburn football player as my passenger one time who really did well and the practice landings were great.
(He did nothing for me to doubt his understanding of what I was saying)
I was jumping a brand new EZ384, approximately 100 ft. off the ground I told him hands all the way up,
and 30-40 ft I said now pick up your feet, and with the speed and strength of a roid rage he burried the toggles sending us back up another 10ft. and with that said and done the canopy stalled.
We were high enough that I had time to tell him "Alright we flared too high so pick up your feet, we are going to hit kind of hard and you are going to land on my lap.
After the trip to the house with birds singing around my head I changed the way I view students helping.

"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form"

[JohnMitchell 14]

Even though or DZ now has all Icaruses and I could do it by myself, I almost always have the student help me flare. I think every TM has had the gorilla student flare too hard, too high, thunking you in. It's the main problem with having the passenger help. A while back, I started using a 2-stage flare with my passengers. You teach them "ready, set, half brakes......flare." On "half brakes", they bring both toggles to the top of their head, and on "flare", they come all the way down.It gives you a higher level of control, and saves your arms for those long days. Makes for some nice, floaty landings, too. It also teaches the student what "half brakes" means on the first jump. Rarely do I have a student that isn't calm enough to help out. Just a little Valium on the plane goes a long way.

[linestretch 0]

I do it all myself. I may let them fly up high, if the spot, altitude, and their attitude is good. But as for landing, it's all me. I'm not big at all, and have never had a problem with flaring even the fatties. I've taken 2 guys that were 270+, and I did all the landing. I guess it's a control thing.

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[slotperfect 7]

Quote

and with the speed and strength of a roid rage he burried the toggles sending us back up another 10ft. and with that said and done the canopy stalled.

Assuming the student's hands are in the toggles:

When preparing to land I physically push the toggles all the way to the keepers for full flight, then wrap my thumbs around the rear risers to lock them in place. I have had very strong students pull down on the toggles prematurely using this fail safe, and I have been able to hold the toggles in position while saying "not yet, not yet" in their ear. Some of them listened, some of them didn't, but the flare happened when I wanted it to regardless.

I learned this from a very small TM with short arms and very little leverage as a result. It is one of the most useful tips I have received.

Arrive Safely

John

[John4455 0]

"That's the beauty of decent tandem mains; I never really need help to land them."

Which ones do you like? Set 400's are the only ones I jumped

How do ya like it Johnny?

[Tonto 1]

I always have the student help. Many of them convert to AFF and mentioned that they felt increased confidence knowing that they had "landed" a canopy prior to their 1st AFF,

I don't think it's a strength issue. I can do it alone, my volumes are low with only 2 or 3 a day max, although in the past I've managed 12 in a day. I feel letting them flare is of more benefit to the student further down the road.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[mfrese 0]

I have never let a student help me land. Heard too many horror stories about big guys doing great up top and them locking up at the last second.

I make every effort to let them control the canopy from opening down to about 1000 feet, depending on their attitude and ability, as it really does seem to help prevent nausea if they're "in control", and also helps me save my strength on a busy day.

It really does help to weight train if you're doing tandems IMHO, and the "TM workout" AggieDave posted is a pretty good one to follow if you're interested in training. It'll certainly help during what I hope will be a busy summer.

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[efs4ever 3]

Meat missles help me at the bottom end after practice. Light weights get a free ride.

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