sabr190 0 #1 January 21, 2005 Hello peeps! Winsor got me thinking after I read something he posted in the incident forum. I have a simple set of rules for myself about landing out. If I can't be within a minimum distance of 1000' from the landing area at an minimum altitude of 1000' I am landing out period. I can usually make this decision the second I have a good canopy over my head and I survey my location in reference to the landing area. Knowing my canopy and how far I can push it on rear risers helps also. How do you decide when to land out and when to stretch for the landing area?? "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #2 January 21, 2005 I have landed off quite a few times in my short time and this is a tough question.... Too many varibles I once made my decision @ 3K, 2K and 1K. The spot winds and even heavy traffic that I was not comfortable with. I make my decision anywhere from freefall on down when I know I can make it somewhere safe???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #3 January 21, 2005 I was jumping at a DZ a while back and the spots sucked so bad all day I planned on landing out before i got on the plane.Alot to think about here.Are you at a familar DZ,do you have few choices.I would my altitude varies alot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ccowden 0 #4 January 21, 2005 You can't really put a definite altitude on making that decision. It will vary from situation to situation, depending factors like winds, outs, traffic, etc.... Basically, a good rule of thumb is: If you are not positive you can make it back, look for an alternate landing area. Also something you should have an idea about before you even get in the plane. Check out the map, ask others who jump there. You never want to get caught trying to figure this stuff out when you are getting behind the 8 ball. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sabr190 0 #5 January 21, 2005 You and firstime make a good point, there are lots of outside influences that can change when where and how. Maybe I should ponder this a little longer and re-word the original post "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fab 0 #6 January 21, 2005 "How do you decide when to land out and when to stretch for the landing area" As soon as I decide that landing out is a safer and better option then taking the risc to try and land at the DZ. At what altitude I decide to land out depends on where I decide is the best 'out' and how long it will take me to set up a safe pattern to land there. I have made two outs in 106 jumps..both because I wasn't sure I woul have cleared the runway above 2000ft (not allowed to be under 2000ft over runway). At 2500 ft decided to land out at these two jumps. Min decision altitude is above 1500 ft _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #7 January 21, 2005 QuoteHello peeps! Winsor got me thinking after I read something he posted in the incident forum. I have a simple set of rules for myself about landing out. If I can't be within a minimum distance of 1000' from the landing area at an minimum altitude of 1000' I am landing out period. I can usually make this decision the second I have a good canopy over my head and I survey my location in reference to the landing area. Knowing my canopy and how far I can push it on rear risers helps also. How do you decide when to land out and when to stretch for the landing area?? I don't look at it a landing out. When I open I check for traffic, do a canopy control check and look around for a place to land. I look for a safe place I can be over at between 800 and 1000 ft. If this happens to be the DZ great. I never think of the DZ as my "first" choice, just on of the safe choices available. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #8 January 21, 2005 All good stuff being said here about landing out. If you jump enough you'll ultimately need to make an off DZ landing sooner or later (sometimes even by choice when doing self inflicted back-country parachute activites like BASE and/or Ground Launching). But how about a twist to the original spirit of this thread? Not only do people need to have alternate landing areas on their jumps selected, but think about the type of canopy you may be flying in the environments and the harzards you may encounter where you jump (having an off DZ landing in a place like Sebastian FL is a lot trickier than an off DZ landing in the western US states). You could be on a fast hp canopy or even be under a reserve in a confined area where you've only got one chance to hit that one and only good landing spot. So not knowing how to fly the canopies you could be on in that off DZ environment could spell disaster. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #9 January 21, 2005 If you think you can make it back, land out. I only go for it when I know I can make it back. The second you have any doubt, you need to find an alternate spot you know you can make it to, and head for it. I jump at Crosskeys. The landing area is huge. But so are the woods that suround it. There is a definite "no mans land". That area of the sky where you can be over the trees, with plenty of altitude, and not be able to make it out. If you are jumping somewhere with lots of wide open fields, no pressure, you can wait a while to make a decision, but at places in the north east, you need to be assessing the situation immediately after opening. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakflyer9999 1 #10 January 21, 2005 My dad was a pilot from the time I can remember and taught me just one thing about flying. I think that it applys to skydiving as well as to aircraft. Always know where you would land at every moment. Any time during a flight he could tell you exactly where he would land if something happened. He basically flew the entire trip from one potential landing area to the next. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ahegeman 0 #11 January 21, 2005 QuoteI was jumping at a DZ a while back and the spots sucked so bad all day I planned on landing out before i got on the plane.Alot to think about here.Are you at a familar DZ,do you have few choices.I would my altitude varies alot. Why'd you jump if the spots were so bad? Couldn't you smack the pilot around a little? I'm not trying to be a prick, just curious.--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cayce 0 #12 January 21, 2005 I had a situation last week where I believe I should have landed out instead of trying to get back into the DZ. After I pulled I realized I was very far out and turned to get back without anything other than a control check. I got back to the starting point of the first leg of the landing pattern around 600ft (400ft lower than is optimum). At that point I had intended to just do a downwind landing as it was a light wind day and I didn't feel I had enough alti to set up in the normal landing pattern. Then two canopies started their final leg and were coming in at me, I didn't want to go head on or mess with their landing pattern so I attempted a flat turn to set up a very short first leg on my pattern. I turned and kept out of their way, got back into the wind, but lost alti and speed/lift because of the 180 flat turn. I ended up loosing vertical much faster than I anticipated and had a hard landing on the runway of all places. Granted, it was the unused far end of the runway, but it was a hard landing none the less. I got some road rash on the knees and a bit of a bone bruise on my heal. I had boots on so no ankle or knee issues, and I did an okay plf, though not really great. Anyway, the gist of my post is that first, knowing that I was the last out on the drop run, I should have pulled just a little higher so I had more time to make it back. Because I knew it was going to be difficult given the long spot. Second, I should have done a better job of scoping out my out landing, and should have anticipated that the other canopies would have been a traffic hazard which would complicate my fall back plan of a down wind landing against traffic at the LZ. Had I thought that far ahead I would have set up on a known out landing spot that I passed over at 1000ft. And finally I under estimated the effects of a flat turn on speed and lift. I had done them high up and felt I understood the principals. Yet I didn't know how it might affect my landing on a low wind day with an increased vertical decent. (If I misconstrued any of the lessons I invite re-direct so I can better learn from the situation) So, not to highjack the thread, I would definitely say in retrospect that an out landing would have been a better choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #13 January 21, 2005 I stick to this rule: at 1000ft tops, preferably by 2000ft, I know which exact field I'm going to land in. In or out. I've only broken this rule a couple times because I couldn't figure out which field another girl I landed out with would choose (turned out she was doing windchecks because she had no clue which direction the airport was, nevermind where the wind came from), and one or 2 times I just crabbed in the direction of the airfield to see how far I would get, us having a lot of fields to choose from. The "don't cross the runway below 2000ft rule" is one that causes a lot of the off-DZ landings here, but then you know it fairly early and there is plenty of room for landing out. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #14 January 21, 2005 For me it depends completely on where I'm jumping and what I'm flying over/going to be flying over. I can't think of one DZ I've jumped at which is not surrounded by good outs. In the UK at least it's a simple fact that nearly every DZ is in the countryside... so there's always fields everywhere. In the case of a DZ surrounded by nothing but open fields I have no problem with flying as far towards the DZ as I can before initiating a normal, into wind landing patern... but simply in an adjoining field. On the one or two occations where I've found obsticals on the ground between me and the DZ, I've flown round them or only over them where I'm sure I can easily make it to the other side of them. Answer is... know thine DZ. If you know there's nothing but green fields between you and the DZ... whats there to stop you shortening your walk? If you know there are or may be anything in between you and the DZ such as power lines or woods etc - make alternative plans with altitude to spare. Thus for me there is no "decision altitude" set in stone... it will always depend on where I am in realation to the DZ what's in between me and the DZ, what outs there are and what the wind's doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #15 January 21, 2005 depends what altitude you get out of the clouds... in that case my lowest decision altitude was 900ft, flying my highest wingloading with my most nervous canopy for the 1st time. the stiletto 135 loaded at 1.45 didn't have forward drive and I was above a forest... Hopefully with fields on the sides... tiptoed the landing by pulling only a couple of cm on my brakes...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #16 January 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteI was jumping at a DZ a while back and the spots sucked so bad all day I planned on landing out before i got on the plane.Alot to think about here.Are you at a familar DZ,do you have few choices.I would my altitude varies alot. Why'd you jump if the spots were so bad? Couldn't you smack the pilot around a little? I'm not trying to be a prick, just curious. Why would you smack the pilot around, you are the one that got out of the airplane. I bet he made it back. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #17 January 21, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteI was jumping at a DZ a while back and the spots sucked so bad all day I planned on landing out before i got on the plane.Alot to think about here.Are you at a familar DZ,do you have few choices.I would my altitude varies alot. Why'd you jump if the spots were so bad? Couldn't you smack the pilot around a little? I'm not trying to be a prick, just curious. Why would you smack the pilot around, you are the one that got out of the airplane. I bet he made it back. Sparky LOL "We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #18 January 21, 2005 I always do the following: Plan A: Can make it back to the DZ? If not I go to Plan B: I look for a good safe out headed back to the DZ. If there are none I go to Plan C: where is a good safe landing area regardless of direction? I jump in Dallas and there are no shortage of good outs around the DZ so I rarely get to plan C, but jumping at other DZ around the country it is an important part of my thought process in the air."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #19 January 21, 2005 QuoteHello peeps! Winsor got me thinking after I read something he posted in the incident forum. I have a simple set of rules for myself about landing out. If I can't be within a minimum distance of 1000' from the landing area at an minimum altitude of 1000' I am landing out period. I can usually make this decision the second I have a good canopy over my head and I survey my location in reference to the landing area. Knowing my canopy and how far I can push it on rear risers helps also. How do you decide when to land out and when to stretch for the landing area?? Is the wind 0 or 25? Is it at your face or your back? Is it as strong down below as it is up top? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnyshrek 0 #20 January 21, 2005 yes i was on those loads..lol Like before too many variables. But at 1500-2000 if i'm getting no push then its time to make a decision. i've seen 2 people in the past month try and make it back and land in the trees. Have great video..lolhttp://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #21 January 21, 2005 QuoteAlways know where you would land at every moment. Any time during a flight he could tell you exactly where he would land if something happened. He basically flew the entire trip from one potential landing area to the next Yep. This answers every question about this subject. Regardless of altitude, wind direction or distance, be aware of your immediate surroundings, as they may turn into your premanent surroundings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #22 January 21, 2005 QuoteHow do you decide when to land out and when to stretch for the landing area?? As soon as I open I look for a place to land. If that is the DZ great, if not I look for the best place and I pick the one closest to the DZ. I also try not to fly above anything I don't want to land on. So if it looks like I *might* make it, I land out."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #23 January 21, 2005 QuoteAlways know where you would land at every moment. Any time during a flight he could tell you exactly where he would land if something happened. He basically flew the entire trip from one potential landing area to the next. Bingo! Have a plan and an out then entire flight back. Constantly reevaluate: "Hmmm. I think I can make it back, but if I don't, that big field below me looks good." "Well clearly I have ample altitude plus some to clear that field. There's another one up there that would suit me fine, if I don't make the landing area." All the while you are assessing your penetration into the wind and hazards that may not have been visible a few hundred feet ago. I like to fly with Plan A, B and C in mind. Sometimes that is not a choice, so I'll hover and circle an "out" like a hawk. That's ONLY if there are no good options anywhere else and you see your one opportunity and don't want to loose it. Like being over an urban area and finding a football field. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #24 January 23, 2005 QuoteBasically, a good rule of thumb is: If you are not positive you can make it back, look for an alternate landing area. Also something you should have an idea about before you even get in the plane. Check out the map, ask others who jump there. You never want to get caught trying to figure this stuff out when you are getting behind the 8 ball. The DZs that I have jumped at in my 144 jumps have been very good about familiarizing me with the airport and surrounding area (respect to Sebastian and Skydive Palm Beach!). That said, I have never had to land out, but I've had a pair of close calls, one closer than the other. Both occurred at Pahokee, FL. On one, I was spotted pretty far Northeast, especially given the paradox of I was a newbie and needed a short spot, relative to experienced jumpers under fast canopies, but would always get a longish spot because being a belly-flier opening at 5,000, I was last out all the time! (Yes, I know I could have asked for a go-around...but I didn't want to confront what would have occurred if I began asking for a go-around for just me on load after load...) I was northeast of Pahokee, and although I was aware of the potential need to spot a good LZ off the airport as it was looking grim for making it back to land in, I still fixated on landing in... and when I came over the road and the fence at the edge of the airport, my feet were quite nearly between the crowns of two palm trees that stood along the edge of the fence. I scared the crap out of myself on that approach, let me tell you. But the important thing is that I didn't get hurt learning a big lesson about landing out if you gotta. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sabr190 0 #25 January 25, 2005 Replying to everyone, not just PJ. Lots of good advice to be had here, pretty much what I was after. I just wish I could have made it more specific, but we all know the variables are just too many. Again, thanks for all the great replys "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
