Otter question for pilots

[funks 1]

Perhaps this question pertains to most skydiving aircraft also (minus cessnas)...I was at the very front of the plane on all loads yesterday, right outside the cockpit...I have noticed this before but not as much as i did yesterday, the dash in the Otter is very high, so high in fact there was no way the pilot could see out the front window during 90% of the climb to altitude...I also noticed there was no attempt made to try and see out the front window. There was an occasional glance out the side window but that was about it. Well me not being a pilot and not understanding flight patterns I was a little freaked out by this, we were basically flying "blind" it seemed.

Do otters have any type of warning system if another aircraft is approaching or is to close? I dont know how the hell any type of collision can be avoided if you cant see what is out in front of you or coming your way???

[Derekbox 0]

The type of system you refer to is called a TCAS. Traffic collision and avoidance system. It can be added to an aircraft post production. I can pretty much tell you for a fact few if any skydiving aircraft will have this. They are very expensive systems.

As for visibility. A good pilot will constantly be scanning for other aircraft. The "dash" being high, well look at every airplane, does create blind spots - just like in your car, but by maintaining situational awareness you minimize the change of collision. It is a nature of the beast. If this scares you I suggest maybe frisbee golf or maybe crossstiching.

By the way, your pilot can see out the window 100% of the time. Sometimes there is nothing to see (ever fly through a cloud). Where do you get this 90% of the time? Maybe your pilot was flying with his eyes closed. *Thats sarcasism*

Anyways, if you would like a TCAS in your Otter, give me a call, itll cost about $75-100k, Im sure the DZ will gladly put the plane down for the 3-4weeks itll take as long as you float the bill. Itll also need 2 new transponder systems, 2 new antennas and a fair deal of sheet metal work, that might be extra - Ill be happy to install it for you.

Derek

Derek

[Praetorian 1]

I've been 2nd seat on a quite a few loads at SDC (full load a jumper takes copilot seat) First the visability is not as bad as you think, second you are looking where you are going, to intersect you have to cross flight path and nose up you are looking up ... but you are going up. To some small extent you do have a blind spot but for another plane to hit you its pilot would have to not see you either

SORRY I'm NOT A PILOT so you can Ignor my reply if you wish

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[funks 1]

Quote

By the way, your pilot can see out the window 100% of the time. Sometimes there is nothing to see (ever fly through a cloud). Where do you get this 90% of the time? Maybe your pilot was flying with his eyes closed. *Thats sarcasism*

I get the 90% from watching him 95% of the flight up. I have a very hard time believing an otter pilot can see out the front windown 100% of the flight. Are you a pilot? Any otter pilots care to confirm the 100% statement for me...thanks

[tombuch 0]

It isn't as bad as it looks from the cabin. The pilot sits up pretty high and has good forward and left side visibility, but can't see much of what is below the plane to the front, nor is there great visibility to the right or behind. There are generally not any radar type displays in the aircraft, but Air Traffic Control is often calling traffic. A good pilot will keep his head and eyes moving and develop a good overall picture of what is around him. If you happen to see traffic on the climb and think it is a factor, mention it to the pilot.

When it comes time to spot, it really helps if everybody looks for traffic, and that is especially true of those sitting on the right side.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Rigster 0]

Wow--Derek, why don't you just find this guy and shoot him for asking a question. Everyone at my DZ has been aprrehensive about one thing or the other at some point and have been able to work through it without bailing from the sport. I bet you had a shit load of questions at some point too. Anyway, DeLand is a great place, so you're excused.

[BIGUN 1,053]

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Do otters have any type of warning system if another aircraft is approaching or is to close?

The pilot is in constant communication with Air Traffic Control via radio. They can tell the pilot another aircraft's altitude, relative position and direction.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[scdrnr 0]

Otters do have fairly high instrument panels, King Airs are worse. Both provide okay forward visibility, the real culprit is the climb attitude of the airplane. Pretty much all jump aircraft in a steep climb restrict your forward visibility. However, as you climb it is less important to clear the airspace directly in front of you as it is to clear the airspace above you. True, it won't work if there is another steeply climbing aircraft on a reciprocal heading, but nothing is perfect. Generally speaking jump aircraft will be in contact with ATC at some point after departure and will recieve radar traffic advisories, but thats not perfect either.

Middair collisions are quite rare, and they are by far most likely to happen while manuevering in the pattern, where a jump plane spends little of its time (approach to landing is the highest risk time).

I wouldn't worry to much about it.

[funks 1]

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The "dash" being high, well look at every airplane, does create blind spots - just like in your car

Not sure what kind of car you drive but my dash sure as hell doesnt create any blind spots.


If this scares you I suggest maybe frisbee golf or maybe crossstiching.***


Thats a pretty desperate comment, been waiting to use that one or something oh mighty god?

[Derekbox 0]

To clarify, you can LOOK out the windshield 100% of the time, its there and its clear. If your pilot is not looking outside well that sounds like a "your pilot" problem not an "otter" problem. I would give benefit of doubt to the pilot though. Im sure you just dont see him/her maintaining awareness - Im sure they are though.

[Derekbox 0]

The blind spot in your car isnt over the dash. But like most cars around the passenger door area on the left and right. The point is that car dashes dont cause blind spots rather that cars have blind spots.

[pilotdave 0]

There most definitely is a blind spot in front of a plane in a climb. The angle the nose is pointed up is not the same as the angle the plane is climbing. Even if it was, traffic climbing in the opposite direction at the same altitude would not be visible. Angle of attack makes the blind spot bigger.

When I fly, I won't simply point the nose up and climb at best rate of climb airspeed all the way up. Course I rarely have had the need or desire to go much over 3000 feet. But many pilots that have long climbs drop the nose a little, pick up some airspeed, and do a "cruise climb." I'll just drop the nose every so often and take a look ahead, or s-turn a little to use the side windows to see my path ahead.

ATC can help, but they are allowed to ignore VFR aircraft if they're busy. Avoiding traffic is all about looking where you're going. Take a look to the left, see if it's clear, then turn left. Keep flying toward big chunks of empty sky.

Dave

[Brains 2]

Hey funks,
I used to ride right seat all the time when my buddy was flying for us. Next time, put on a headset and listen to all the info that the pilot is getting and sending. You will quickly learn that they ARE paying attention. I would also bet that while climbing he was in a steady left turn. He is looking out the left windo and up where he is going. That is what i observed anyway.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[JohnMitchell 14]

The pilot can't see the ground over the nose, but he can see where he is going, which is up, during the climb. The pilot is much closer to the windshield, so he has a much better view (duh). By moving his head around, he can see quite a bit. But every plane has it's blind spots. The Otter is no exception.

Depending on where you are flying, ATC will call all the traffic that shows up on radar. With that said, be advised that not all airplanes always show up on radar. Smart pilots keep up a good traffic scan. Some pilots don't. I've flown with both.

There are systems now that give traffic alerts for much less money than a complete TCAS system, but not quite as comprehensive. I wouldn't mind one on our aircraft.

[diverdriver 5]

TCAD should be something most DZs with large turbines should consider. It's an extra level of safety.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Foursprouts 0]

The plane I fly is like a small otter with retractable gear and asume it has similar visibility out the front. Once you have been doing it a while you realize that although ATC provide a great service even though they are not required to do if you are VFR it is not something that should be relyed upon as they quite often don't tell you about aircraft that come very close. This may be because they are doing other things or the other aircraft does not have a transponder and they dont get a strong primary signal. The cruise climb idea although nice would probably get most jump pilots fired if they did it on every lift. Too many turns also degrades climb performance. If you move your head around you can see all the area from horizontally in front of you to quite a way below you either side of the nose all the way to vertically above you if you stick your head against the windshield and look up. The worst would be an aircraft comming slightly behind from the right and above on an intersecting course as that is where the pilot cannot see. It is one place that the jumpers can see as they sit by side windows. If you ever spot an aircraft and think it is comming close let the pilot know. The best way to tell if it is converging is it will not move in the window it will only get bigger. Never think that it is not worth telling the pilot about if it concerns you. An occasional turn is also a good idea to periodically check the area beneath and infront of the nose. If the pilot is just moving his eyes to look out the window he is not seeing as much sky as he should be. You should also assume that no other aircraft will see you.


Included a pic of a jump plane that I still find hard to beleive no one uses in the US.http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=025878&WxsIERv=TNS%20A22O%20Abznq&WdsYXMg=Gur%20Sylvat%20Qhgpuzna&QtODMg=Ebggreqnz%20%28-%20Mrfgvraubira%29%20%28EGZ%20%2F%20RUEQ%29&ERDLTkt=Argureynaqf&ktODMp=Ncevy%2030%2C%201998&BP=0&WNEb25u=Rqjva%20Qbaqref&xsIERvdWdsY=A5190L&MgTUQtODMgKE=%28pa%20A22O-26%29.&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=425&NEb25uZWxs=1999-02-26%2000%3A00%3A00&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=&static=yes&width=602&height=424&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg%20%3D%20%27TNS%20A22O%20Abznq%27%29%20%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=27&prev_id=131295&next_id=NEXTID

[PhreeZone 15]

If I remember right that plane is not certified for sale in the US currently. I know thats the issue with some of the Anotov planes and the LET-410. Also I think it might be over the weight limit and require a full 2 person crew. I think the CASA 212-200 is the only jump plane in the US that requires a full crew currently.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Foursprouts 0]

The one I fly in the UK is on a US N registration operated under part 91 with one pilot. The owner bought it from a dealer in AZ (I think) before it was a jump plane it was operated by the US coastguard as a search and rescue aircraft in the florida keys. There are only 40ish left flying in the world most of them in Asia as military trainers for crews on their way to C130s. There are a few in the US, most of them up for sale as they aren't much good for anything apart from jumping out of. I beleive the center bought the one here for about 1/5th the price of an old caravan. It is an amazing plane. 8500lbs and our longest runway is grass and about 1800ft long, uses about 2/3rds of that to get in the air.

[bob.dino 0]

You're correct. The LET 410 does require a two-person crew. At least in Oz.

As for the Nomad, I believe it was quite a popular jumpship in Australia at one time. More details on the aircraft.