How to use a turbine

[brettpobastad 0]

Fellow skydiving professionals:

I need some help convincing a DZO to change a couple of procedures. As a former DZO myself (I used to own the very same drop zone) I know that it’s damn near impossible. But with help from industry professionals such as yourself, we can convince him that it was his idea all along.

Here’s the deal:

Ours is a small, old school, drop zone in the Northwest. Our jump aircraft have always been single engine, piston powered Cessnas with the occasional Twin Beech or DC-3 for a season or two. Our turbine experiences have basically been limited to leasing aircraft for boogies once a year. We made the big, permanent turbine leap late last fall when we acquired a Cessna 207 with the SOLOY turbine conversion. For the unfamiliar, it is a single engine, high wing turbine that looks like an elongated 206. Cargo door and traditional jump door. Plenty of steps and handles. It will carry the pilot and seven jumpers to 13,000 feet AGL in 18 1/2 minutes. I timed it myself. I should also note two other things: The two pilots (one is the DZO himself) are highly experienced jump pilots and as safe and competent as any I have ever been around but this is their first real experience with turbines. Also, our DZ is 400 feet or so above sea level.

We now have a turbine. They go higher, faster and carry more passengers or cargo. Skydivers like that! And because that’s what they are designed to do, the aircraft work more efficiently and are more cost effective when flown to their capabilities.

The specifics:

Jumpers pay $21 to 12k agl. (The plane isn’t allowed to go higher and often times we get out at 11,5 or less) We have three different altitudes for tandems. Jumpers are being rushed to the airplanes.

Here’s what I think:

There should be one set jump altitude and that altitude should be 13,000 above the ground. Our prices should fall in line with the rates at other area turbine drop zones. We should have one altitude (13k) for tandems. We should strive to make it easy and convenient for the customer (more packing, staging and loading area, an efficient PA system, etc.) as opposed to simply telling them to hurry up.

I have very specific reasons for everything listed here and I have the experiences and examples to back them up. But I want others with similar experience to weigh in first. And please feel free to disagree and correct. I don’t know everything, just most everything.

Brett

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[AggieDave 6]

I'm going to take a guess on the tandems and altitudes then ask a couple of questions.

Introductory tandems (aka "fun" tandems) are getting out first and a lower altitude, right? That way its easier to beat the plane down and be on a back to back? Although we don't do that at my DZ, other DZs do practice this and it works for them. There are certain considerations to be accounted for, but I will tell you getting out last at 13.5k with a tandem and trying to get down to make the next load isn't the easiest thing to do. I'm sure you know this quite well.

As for the jump ticket price and the altitudes, have you had a chance to sit down with the current DZO and look at the actual numbers being run? The logged time, the fuel burn for a full load and so forth? There may be a very practical reason the current DZO is doing what he is doing. Please correct me if I'm wrong, especially since I'm not a pilot, but one would think that a converted 207, although it is now a turbine and has some added benifits, it won't fly like the normal turbines used in the industry. 208s, Twotters and such that we are used to as turbine skydiving workhorse set the standard of thought for skydivers and the 207 may not perform as such.

You have a lot more experience at this sort of thing then I do, having been a former DZO not to mention your time and sport and experience, so you may have already thought of these things and came to a different conclusion. If that is the case, then why not work up some numbers in terms of the money spent vs. money earned to lower lift tickets and raise altitudes then present it to the current DZO?

No matter what, as you know, at the end of the day a non-club DZ can't stay open long if its spending more then its making.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhreeZone 15]

I've only jumped at 1 DZ that had different altitudes for tandems and I did not like it from a fun jumper perspective since the tandems would get out at 10k and then the Otter went on up to 13k for fun jumps.

Basically I disliked the idea of exiting on top of tandems less then 3-4 minutes after they jumped and were still under canopy. To me that seemed like an accident waiting to happen. The other issue was if tandems paid the extra to go to 13k then you had to make room on both sides of the plane (front and back) to let the tandems get hooked up.

Manifest had to make sure the tandems were loading in the right order to make sure a 10k tandem did not load first or go to 13k.

Overall... more hassle for the effort.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[brettpobastad 0]

So what would you rather have? Tandems below you or next to you in the airplane?

Remember, tandems keep the dropzone going but experienced jumpers keep the turbine going.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[brettpobastad 0]

Aggie D

Thanks for the quick reply. I agree with your thoughts on everything. But consider…

Tandem rigs, instructors, packers, manifest scheduling and marketing are all things to consider for a successful tandem operation. The time you might think is being saved by doing back to back to back tandems and putting them out at a lower altitude is more than doubly negated by too few rigs or by having three different types of rigs, or when inexperienced instructors move too slow, and a million other little things. And that’s not the real issue anyway. I’m talking about using the aircraft in such a way that it is an efficient, effective tool to entice experienced jumpers to come to the drop zone and make as many jumps as possible. Tandems and other students are what keep a DZ in buisiness but it is the experienced jumper that keeps the turbines in the air over the long run.

I have had many discussions with the DZO. Him and I are close like brothers (a story for another time) but we have not crunched numbers. Don’t really need to. I do know this: If that turbine was even close to losing money, we wouldn’t be having this discussion because it would have been long gone. In a 182, the difference in the time and fuel it takes to go to 12k as opposed to 10k make doing so uneconomical. The difference between going to 13k versus 12k in a turbine in terms of time lost and fuel burnt is minimal. Particularly when compared to the negative experiences it gives the experienced jumper, who pass that along to other experienced jumpers, who make up DZ staff and who recruit tandems and who take out the trash and buy equipment, etc., etc. And your not using the equipment in the way that it was designed (or at least why we use them for skydiving) It’s like if your girlfriend gets a boob job but won’t take off her bra. The might as well have stayed small.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[PhreeZone 15]

Next to me. Any day of the week next to me. I don't mind sitting on the floor or what ever... I just do not like falling on top of canopies like that.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Beerlight 0]

Quote

Particularly when compared to the negative experiences it gives the experienced jumper, who pass that along to other experienced jumpers, who make up DZ staff and who recruit tandems and who take out the trash and buy equipment, etc., etc. And your not using the equipment in the way that it was designed (or at least why we use them for skydiving) It’s like if your girlfriend gets a boob job but won’t take off her bra. The might as well have stayed small.

You asked and answered your own question.

I too agree with one set altitude for all. Easier on your pilot. Plus, he/she wouldn't have to worry about traffic conflicts for multiple jump runs, jumper conflicts etc..etc..

Have you ever timed it for multiple passes? Probably longer than 18.5 minutes I'd bet.......

I'd also bet that if you add up the additional time required to set-up for multiple passes, whoever ran the expense books would be screaming at you.

Now tear that bra off, and use the turbine like it was meant to be used!!!!............Just my 2 cents.

[sid 1]

Hey Brett! You know the difference between a skydiver and a turbine engine? When you shut the turbine engine off, the whining stops!!!!!!

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[brettpobastad 0]

Oh, make no mistake about it. I know what the answers are. The problem is my buddy the DZO is tired of hearing it from me. I wanted some back up.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[Jumpervint 0]

The plane holds seven, but that's a squeeze. Three tandems, or two with video, on one load. Experienced jumpers the next load. Or two up-jumper loads and then a tandem load. If there aren't enough tandems, free-fly guys or low time students/novices doing a solo. Everyone goes to the same altitude and pays the same price. Tandems out last.

And you have to refuel after 3 loads anyway, so there's an extra 10 minutes to organize.

I've seen that plane do 24-25 loads straight to 12 grand without a shut-down, flying mixes of tandems with and without video, free-flyers, wingsuit jumpers and bellyflyers.

I've sent notice of this thread to the previous owner of the plane. Maybe he'll respond.

Vint

. . . . .
"Make it hard again." Doc Ed

“A person needs a little madness, or else they never dare cut the rope and be free” Nikos Kazantzakis

[Amazon 7]

I need 13 to 13.5k to do speed jumps for training.. if that helps at all And I have a few people who want to do tandems from here at work. Just kind of waiting for better weather to organize them into a day at the dropzone. I think I have them sold on the looking into the volcano thing

• Quote

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Jumpers pay $21 to 12k agl. (The plane isn’t allowed to go higher and often times we get out at 11,5 or less)
Brett

Hey Brett, is this an ATC problem with center? If so, let me know and I will straighten that out. I know there is some traffic in that area but they are not so busy that they can't work around it. Remember, you're a VFR operation, not IFR.

[sundevil777 93]

Very good for DZO to have friend in ATC...

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[skyrex 0]

I owned the Turbine 207 for 5 years.
We flew to 12K AGL because we were taking off from a 2400 foot MSL airport. The 12K put us up to 14,500 MSL, technically above where pilots need to wear O2. Above 15MSL the passengers have to have it available.
In hot weather, the density altitude at 14 is clear up to 17K and the plane has lost over half of its 420 sea level horse power and climbs weakly when loaded heavily w/ jumpers and fuel.
From a low level airport it could more easily climb to 12 or 13K.
But - for the jumpers the extra altitude is just a few seconds more freefall, but, much more time and expense to the operator.
There's a huge difference between a super otter w/ two 750 hp engines (flat rated to 500)and the 420 in the 207.
Just because its a turbine doesn't mean it has to fly to 13K for you. That was the early expectation from some jumpers here too. Now we've traded to a Caravan and again some think it MUST go to 13K as its a "Caravan". There's still the O2 issue, even if often overlooked and there certainly are more expenses to the operator.
The turbine is quieter, faster and gets more people aloft in the same time, so take those benefits and sit down, buckle up and shut up.
If you want the extra altitude why don't you offer to pay for it. Your drop zone is not an Eloy or Paris w/ a huge volume to make up some of the difference.
Your lucky you have a local that would buy the better aircraft, but, the number of upjumpers at a small DZ don't keep it running or cover the extra expense.
Celebrate the wonderful plane you get to ride in, offer to cover extra altitude or buy a plane ticket to Eloy every weekend to get 13K.

[EricTheRed 0]

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It’s like if your girlfriend gets a boob job but won’t take off her bra.

I hear you there!

Thanks for the smile this morning

Red

illegible usually

[riggerrob 558]

[brettpobastad 0]

RR

Hey, right on again, man.

I do want to clarify something: Our jumpers are doing a pretty damn good job of ramping up to the turbine. Way better than I expected. For the most part, they are showing up to the DZ earlier, they get their gear packed sooner, they meet the plane. A lot of our regulars are even getting second rigs.

What I mean by rushing them is when the weather has been shitty all day long and all of a sudden there's a hole and and everyone's all asses and elbows getting going. Next thing you know is we're at the airplane almost literally being pushed through the door (keep in mind, everone on the load is there. Nobody is running to the plane or gearing up) Next thing you know we're at the end of the runway and the door is still open and half the jumpers don't have their seatbelts on yet.

"Hey! Check 'ol Tommy's chest strap over there, will ya"

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[brettpobastad 0]

Rex

Thanks for the input. Coming from the former owner of the plane carries a lot of weight. And a jumper as well. Do you get to jump much these days? Have you been to Kapowsin or Molalla?

Let's go over your reply, point by point. And correct me if I’m wrong...

Our airport is 375 feet above the ocean and we are on the other side of the mountains. Much cooler, denser air.

A skydive from 12K lasts, what 60 seconds or so? What would going to 13k add? 5 or 8 seconds? Shit, why quibble over 8 seconds. They only have to stay on the bull for 8 seconds, right! As a skydiver, you should know that 5 or 8 seconds is a lot. But that's not even the point, is it Rex. What we're talking about is giving the jumpers what they want, versus how much it will cost the drop zone. It's a trade off and a gamble but just using simple numbers doesn't do anything for the big picture. And I'm not convinced that your numbers are right, or even if you have them.

I know the difference between an Otter and a Turbine 207. Don't them Otters have two motors? And I one time seen twenty-four of them sky-jumpers git in one once.

This Turbine 207 is quieter, more comfortable and gets more jumpers higher and faster. Instead of wondering if they might, just maybe, get a four way going to 10 grand if they wait around long enough, they are arguing over whether or not they got 4 or 5 points on that seven way. It's a wonderful airplane and we are lucky and fortunate to have it available. I want to keep it around. We need to use it as best we can for the jumpers, present and hopefully future, as well as the owners.

We are lucky to have a local get us this wonderful aircraft. As a matter of fact, I know these people very well. One of 'em used to work for me when I owned this drop zone. We're brothers and he loves skydiving as much as I do (well, maybe not that much) or he wouldn't have taken the steps to get it. Business wise, he was doing more than just fine with two 182's. He has taken a real gamble with this turbine and now that we have it, we cannot go back. This is his legacy at our drop zone.

We are trying to entice more jumpers to Toledo and we want them to stay longer, make more jumps and spend more money. And of course, have more fun. Isn't that the point?

We celebrate the Turbine 207 every weekend. Even when it's raining. As a matter of fact, I feel a bonfire coming on this weekend. I'll be there. Come on down and I'll buy you a beer, Rex.

We do pay for the extra altitude (that we sometimes don't get). Our jump rates are as high or higher than anyone else’s in the region.

I usually just drive to Central California or the coast. There are plenty of great DZ's there. It's the big leagues, you know.

You spelled Perris wrong. But it is wonderful in the fall.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[brettpobastad 0]

Hey Red!

Check out Jarrett's post in the General Skydiving section.

That's you, bro!

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[brettpobastad 0]

Rex

As a followup to the issues that we have been discussing on this thread, I have been timing a few loads in the turbine, here and there.

TIMED LOAD ONE: 18-1/2 minutes to 12,500 with a full load (seven jumpers plus pilot). One pass.

TIMED LOAD TWO: 18 minutes to 12,000 with a full load. One pass. Warmer day.

TIMED LOAD THREE: 17 minutes to 11,500. Six jumpers. One pass. DZO flying.

I timed these loads from 'wheels up' to the call for the door. Do they seem to support my position?

Brett

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[Foursprouts 0]

Where I currently work we put tandems out at 10K if there are no paying fun jumpers on the lift and at 12K if there are. Tandems get out last as it is not such a big deal if they get a long spot and they also open higher. Almost all of them are first timers and don't know if they went from 7 or 30K. It works well and saves time as even though you would be lighter if tandems got out at 10 it would add on all the time saved in a faster climb by running in twice. With most turbines it is only the time in the air that goes towards 100 hour inspections so it is not that expensive to have them waiting on the ground for a few minuites, the 207 may not be like that as it is a converted piston .

[riggerrob 558]

Consider hot-cold cycles on turbine engines.
My boss says that it is cheaper for him to idle his King Air on the ground for 5 minutes than it is to shut down, then re-start ... fuel being cheaper than steel.
Also remember that cautious pilots like to wait up to 20 minutes for turbine engines to cool before attempting a re-light. The mandatory inspection after a hot-start is prohibitively expensive.
If a pilot is not being cautious with your many hundred thousand dollar turbine engine, fire him!

[Foursprouts 0]

I know that pt-6 engines require you wait before starting them if you just shut them down but I doub't a 207 has a pt-6 in the front. The engines I use at the moment require the tot to be below 150 before atempting a start but you are permited to spin them on the starter until the tot drops below 150 and then put the fuel in. Obviously not straight away as you would get turbines rubbing and stuff like that but after 10-15 mins it is ok. We try to keep them running as a start does more damage to the engine than a whole days flying and some engine components are limited to number of cycles.

[diverdriver 5]

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I know that pt-6 engines require you wait before starting them if you just shut them down but I doub't a 207 has a pt-6 in the front. The engines I use at the moment require the tot to be below 150 before atempting a start but you are permited to spin them on the starter until the tot drops below 150 and then put the fuel in. Obviously not straight away as you would get turbines rubbing and stuff like that but after 10-15 mins it is ok. We try to keep them running as a start does more damage to the engine than a whole days flying and some engine components are limited to number of cycles.

I asked some mechanics about that 15 minute thing and I was pretty much told it's a myth on PT-6s. As long as you spin it good before putting the fuel to it you're alright. I watched mechanics start, stop, start a PT-6 a few times in a row checking stuff. I asked about the 15 minute cool down and that's when I got my answer.

Now, you certainly don't want to make a habit of shutting down and then restarting 5 minutes later. Comparitively Jet-A is cheap.

If we are talking Garret engines then you need to be concerned about the turbine shaft. Because it is much longer on a Garret than a Pratt it can actually bow after shutting down. That's why you always see Garret pilots hand spinning the props a few times before walking away. That's to induce a bit more cool air after shutdown. After 15 minutes, the shaft bow should be gone and starting is ok.

Don't take my word as Gospel. If you are the owner operator YOU need to make a call to your respective engine manufacturer's place of business and ask these questions. Make sure you get it straight from the horses mouth.

Back some years when I was researching a turbine 206 for a DZ I asked about start cycles. The response was that since the Allyson engine was originally designed for helicopter use it could withstand 2 cycles (starts per hour) and be fine. I was floored as I was expecting to hear something about 1 cycle per two hours of operating. This made this plane very attractive in my book for a small Cessna operation looking to go turbine but not wanting to outrun the packing ability of the regular crowd and go to higher altitude for nearly the same money. That was back in 1996 when I looked into it.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[brettpobastad 0]

DD, RR and FS

That's a lotta technical info! If I read and understand it all correctly, and i think I do, then it all supports my position on using our Cessna 207 Turbine correctly. And what I mean by 'correctly' is a compromise between using it efficiently and keeping ALL jumpers happy and coming back for more. Thank you for your input.

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"