Is skydiving too safe

[skybytch 259]

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What I mean is are we portraying skydiving as being safe?

To the general public, yes, I think skydiving is being marketed as "safe." I also think that marketing the sport this way is wrong.

There's a fine line in dealing with first jumpers though. It's important that they be comfortable enough with the gear and what they need to do to safely make a first jump, otherwise many wouldn't make the jump (or may make the jump but not perform well due to fear issues). But it's also important that they realize that no matter what they do they can still be injured or die - one of my favorite lines to use in an FJC was "there's no such thing as a perfect rig, a perfect instructor, a perfect airplane, a perfect pilot or a perfect student."

It's worse with tandems - an AFF or S/L first jumper has likely made a decision that they want to do it themselves, they just need a bit of encouragement to see that they can. Many tandem first jumpers are 100% relying on the instructor to save them, and many tandem instructors and dz's are telling them that's okay.

Ask someone with less than 100 jumps if they think skydiving is safe. If they say yes, ask them how they did their first jump. I'd bet the majority would say tandem.

[GreenLight 5]

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For me it has never been about the danger. I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it was safe. I wouldn't go on any jump I deemed to be unsafe.

You had better stop skydiving then because they are ALL unsafe... Sure, a bag of potatoes can do this now without injury but that's only because it has no choices to make.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[NickDG 23]

Yes, the word "eXtreme" is Madison Avenue marketing term used to sell stuff to gullible teenagers.

The first two sports I remember being called "extreme" were Land Luge and BASE jumping. Land Luge because it was an extreme form of Olympic sled sport, and BASE because it was an extreme form of skydiving. Nowadays the term is applied to any sport where the marketers find a buck to be made.

In 1987 the first "outside the sport" vendor showed up at the Bridge Day trade show. It was "No Fear" a company none of us ever heard of before. We thought their shirts were ridiculous and told them they'd probably sell more if instead they said "Big Fear."

I went to their table staffed by "hip looking edgy kids" and asked if they'd be jumping tomorrow. Surrounded by a sea of "No Fear" shirts they all proclaimed to be chickens. I asked Andy, the BD organizer, why he allowed them in and he just shrugged but I suspect money had changed hands. Eventually we got rid of the "No Fear" company, and just for good measure, got rid of Andy too . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Orange1 0]

2c worth from a newbie, who's not in this sport because I like danger, but because I love the feelings of jumping off a plane, falling through the sky, and flying my canopy.

About the "safe" issue - I think it's relative. Skydiving as a sport is probably much safer than the average whuffo thinks it is, and it is probably safer than many other extreme sports - partly because the DZ can control who partakes in it, and how. But this does not make the sport "safe" in absolute terms.

Having said that, I've known people who've died in "normal" sports - rugby and cycling.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[goose491 0]

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edit: I am very drunk now and may regret posting this

Maybe not regret. But I certainly hope you reconsider your stance a little. This is not a risky sport. I repeat, this is not a risky sport. The chances of something going wrong on your next dive are slim. But there is danger, when something does go wrong, your chances of solving the problem are also slimmer than any whuffo would enjoy. That's the rush of a malfuncition for ya, you have a very narrow margin of error.

But if the high you seek is of the "Oh my God I'm gonna die!!!... Whew, I didn't die, that was a close one" nature... then I suggest you take up Russian Roulet and leave skydiving to those of us who get high from the realisation of human flight.

Just my $0.02CND

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Dougiefresh 0]

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on occasion on a jump I have found it to be boring

This I don't understand. As a fellow 100-jump wonder, I have NEVER had a jump where I didn't learn something or do something new. If you're bored, try 4-way. Never a dull moment. I can understand if all you're doing is solo sits it can get repetitive, but boring?

And if you want more risk, you're just ignorant of how dangerous this sport is. Have you had a mal? Lemme tell you, baglocks are not boring. You're still taking "the risk" every time you step foot on the dz.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[Reginald 0]

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Now that I am involved I see that it is all about safety I find that it is "so safe" that on occasion on a jump I have found it to be booring.
the equipment we use is so reliable that the risk now is miniumal compared to the jumpers who poineered the sport.

After you’ve seen a few fatalities up close and personal and have a community set of crutches due to all the broken legs and know the name of the local orthopedic surgeon then tell me how safe this sport is.

I used to think it was relative safe…and it is much safer than the average Whuffo thinks it is (of course they think it’s like 50-50 if the “chute” opens) but I’ve come to the conclusion IT IS NOT A SAFE SPORT! People die and get maimed on a regular basis even at the best and safest DZ’s in the country.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[kevinwhelan 0]

I must again apoligize for my first post being so badly worded. I thought that putting things like so safe in inverted commas would convey my meaning. also complacent would have been a better word than boring
I know that it is a dangerous sport but what I meant to imply was that the risks are being downplayed by constantly pointing out how safe modern equipment it

lesson learnt never post drunk

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[billvon 2,434]

>What I mean is are we portraying skydiving as being safe?

Yes, and I think we do too much of that. I used to get grief from our DZO because I'd start every class with "skydiving is a dangerous sport; you can be injured, you can even be killed. So you have to listen carefully to minimize the chances of that happening." He didn't like all the doom-n-gloom in that statement. Other instructors would say "You'll be fine! Don't worry about it."

I think much of this sentiment is due to:
-an overreaction from some oldtimers who want to make sure that people understand it's a lot safer than it was (which it is)

-a reaction from newer jumpers; they desire that their sport be seen as safe, and that their decision to participate in it is a wise one.

You can see the latter people at DZ's all the time doing things like comparing skydiving to driving. "Hey, I could get killed driving home!" Well, yeah, and you could get leprosy too, but that doesn't make skydiving any safer.

>Is this attitude causing jumpers to look for additional risk?

I don't think it causes them to look for additional risk. I think it causes them to underestimate the risks in what they were doing. One of the few people I grounded at Brown Field was a level-3 jumper who simply would not take anything seriously. When I got on him for screwing up emergency procedures for the 19th time, he actually said "Oh, come on. What's the worst that can happen?" He (and his friend) were simply unable to comprehend the risks they were taking.

Is this common in skydiving? I don't think so. But it's becoming more common. With AAD's, AFF, RSL's, dytters, reliable gear etc it's easy to think that someone or something will always save you from your mistakes. But as history has shown, we continue to find new ways to make mistakes.

[Reginald 0]

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I must again apoligize for my first post being so badly worded.
lesson learnt never post drunk

No worries.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[YahooLV 0]

It's only safe when no one dies.

Tell all the people that have died that this is a safe sport.

http://www.curtisglennphotography.com

[kimemerson 7]

We haven't always had reliable AAD's, audible altimeters, RSL's, the Skyhook, square canopies, GPS, coaches, canopy control/flight schools, instructional videoes. And they are still optional. No need to own any of the ones you have a choice about. (GPS isn't really your choice). And as these things came along, people who came into the sport afterward assumed they had been around all along and were somehow indespensible. I've known jumpers to scratch because the battery on the audible was dead. I know a jumper who didn't pull because the audible didn't sound and so the Cypres did the work for him. I don't mean just brain locking, I mean getting on the plane thinking the audible was the signal to pull and thinking that's what to wait for - no pulling without that beep, beep, beep. So the availability of the advanced equipment sort of creates the skydiver who cannot conceive of jumping with anything less. For some reason there seems to be a drive to save the weakest from themselves, to make as much of the sport idiot proof as possible. I could forsee a future in which the sport splits in much the same way it is now related to but different from BASE jumping. When Association skydivers are Cypress'd up to their eyeballs and safe to a fault. When renegades are outlawed by USPA beause thet won't wear anything more than maybe an one Altimaster, three handles and two eyes.

[kevinwhelan 0]

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I don't think it causes them to look for additional risk. I think it causes them to underestimate the risks in what they were doing.

I don't know about this, in the back of all our minds is not the saying"skydiving is a high risk activity" a factor. If we are then convinced that it is safe, due to repetitive survived jumps, or constant "much safer than it used to be" statements do some not then look for the risk they perceived when they began to jump.

I have seen a lot of posts with "I wouldn't do the jump if it was not safe"
in other words if there is no added risk it is called safe

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[kevinwhelan 0]

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For some reason there seems to be a drive to save the weakest from themselves, to make as much of the sport idiot proof as possible.

your post could be taken a number of waysis it a bad thing to keep the idiot alive?
dose it dilute the sport?
my opinion
keep the Idiot alive but educate him/her

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[lawrocket 3]

You know, comparing the risk of skydiving to driving is like taking up smoking because second-hand smoke is more dangerous than direct smoke.

Whether you like it or not, skydiving increases our risk of violent death or extreme trauma. You don't mitigate the risk of injury in this sport by comparing its risk to another activity.

In the Army, we conducted risk assessments for EVERYTHING! I found the matrix to be pretty handy. Attached is an example of a risk matrix.

Now, if you look at an activity like skydiving, let's get into the risks by specifying it. For example, you're a jumper with 99 jumps. Let's say you are doing a solo hop and pop. Let's say you are on a PD Nav240 with exit weight of 220. Winds at 10 mph.

Let's limit this risk to "under functional canopy." Now, the likelihood of of your receiving an injury in this activity is probably "unlikely." However, the potential injury you can receive is catastrophic or major. Risk is therefore Medium or Low on a Low-Medium-High scale. The consequences from an individual mistake under that canopy are not too bad.

Let's change a variable to say winds are at 15 mph with gusts to 22. Hmmm. Now the likelihood of injury is Occasional with Extreme results. You are now in a high risk category.

As you move up in level and do more things, the risk factors add up. Doing a four-way? You have more risks. Higher wingloading? More chances for adverse events.

Still, skydiving has a great emphasis on safety. Think of it like motor vehicle racing. Much is done to abate risks in that sport, and there is a huge focus on safety technology. Why? Because the danger of operating motor vehicles at speeds in excess of 200 mph is pretty fucking apparent. The risks of this sport (as Windsor says, "hurling yourself bodily at a planet from two miles up") is also pretty fucking apparent.

It's not so apparent in SCUBA. Hey, if I run out of air, I'll surface. The more knowledge you get of SCUBA, the more dangerous you realize it is. Skiing? Not until I started skydiving did the thought actually cross my mind on top of a hill that I could easily die before I got to the end of the run.

Christ, I wear a helmet and knee pads while rollerblading now! Why? Because I understand the risks better. "You look like a dork wearing that helmet, dude." The danger of rollerblading isn't so apparent as the danger of holding on to the outside of an airplane at 12.5 k.

In terms of skydiving being safe? The more safe you think the sport is, the greater chance you have of being a crater looking for grid coordinates.

This sport scares me. I haven't jumped in almost 2 years because I cannot yet justify the risk with regards to my family. Two years ago I could. Nwo I've got a wife and a son. The risk of the sport hasn't changed at all for me in the last two years. Only my realization of it.

The safest part of my day is over. I'm gonna drive home now...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kevinwhelan 0]

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This is not a risky sport. I repeat, this is not a risky sport.

you see what I mean this statement is just wrong it is a risky sport
every time you jump you might just die

oh yea I am drunk again

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[billvon 2,434]

>in the back of all our minds is not the saying"skydiving is a high risk
>activity" a factor. If we are then convinced that it is safe, due to
>repetitive survived jumps, or constant "much safer than it used to
> be" statements do some not then look for the risk they perceived
> when they began to jump.

Well, in a lot of ways I _am_ safer now than I was when I had 100 jumps. Even though I jump a smaller canopy and do more advanced stuff. I'm more likely to be able to land safely under all conditions with my wingsuit canopy (a Pilot 150) than I was with my old PD-190; indeed, the only serious injuries I got in skydiving were under the PD-190. So to some degree, surviving X number of jumps usually _does_ make you safer, at least when it comes to the odds of dying in the future.

In addition, when I had 100 jumps, there were some things that I simply did not have the skill to do. If I had tried to do 100-ways, I would have killed myself or someone else. After a few thousand jumps (I'm a slow learner) I got to the point where I could do them with enough margin of safety that I felt comfortable - and more to the point, that other people felt comfortable asking me to do them. That doesn't mean that I take more risk now that I have more jumps, it means that I have gotten enough experience that I can do them without too much additional risk - which is my standard.

>I have seen a lot of posts with "I wouldn't do the jump if it was
>not safe" in other words if there is no added risk it is called safe.

I think that's shorthand for "I wouldn't do the jump if it was not safe enough." No jump is perfectly safe, and I think most (80%? 90%?) of skydivers realize that. It's the 10-20% who really _do_ think it's completely safe that are the problem.

[Don.Key 0]

I am a complete newbie, with AFF infront of me. I was assured by skydiving school with that typical "You are safer here then in the car" and actually believed it. Until I came here and read, read, read, all them threads in safety, incidents and general forums, for several days now. Also watched the malfunction videos from skydivingmovies.

For me, this sounds like a moderately dangerous sport and I will continue jumping past 20 jumps only if I will decide for myself that fun I am receiving is worth the risk.

I gave up motorbiking, skiing, diving and some other activities because for me, the risk vs fun ratio was just not right. On another hand freediving and recently kitesurfing are some of my pasions where risk vs fun is justified.

So, for me skydiving is every bit "Extreme" now, I will prepare very well for the AFF (Get 30-60 mins in wind tunnel) and latest after hard deck of 20 jumps I will sit down and make a "yay or nay" decision for myself.

[tbrown 26]

For me, this sounds like a moderately dangerous sport and I will continue jumping past 20 jumps only if I will decide for myself that fun I am receiving is worth the risk.

[Antidote 0]

I sometimes wonder if there is such a thing as a "shedding of innocence" in skydiving.

What I'm talking about is the process of starting in the sport where eevery experience is extreme or perceived as such. Then moving on a bit - now it's just cool and fun and party. Sure there are the risks but hey that's kinda cool too in a "living on the edge" newbie way.

The that innocence is taken away by some experience - a near miss, broken bones in some mishap, friend that gets hurt or friend that gets killed.

So as you say it's always a continuous evaluation of risk vs. reward. However once the innocence is "lost", I don't think you can go back to looking at the sport in the same somewhat naieve and idealistic way.

Maybe I'm way off base here. Just personal experience.

[kimemerson 7]

The emphasis should have been on the word "drive" in that line, to imply that that's where the focus might be, as opposed to safety being solely a matter of our own behavior and sense of responsibility. There are whole industries devoted to keeping the idiot alive, to save the idiot from not only himself, but from the likelihood of ever learning how to do the job himself without external aid. Because we know we can survive skydive after skydive without all the babysitting devices, it makes one wonder what's left to the thrill when you can put a dollar amount on the extent of responsilbity you'll take for yourself.

The fact that there are so many 'saves' nowadays that not that long ago would have been deaths is not really a dilution but it sure as hell is a change. And considering the sports beginnings and the people who pioneered it, there is arguement enough for the current generation being viewed as pussies in comparrison. We are at the point where fewer whuffos think we're all idiots, and more of them have a sometimes accurate enough image of the sport just because we're getting into their newspapers and TVs and movies a lot more. We're more accesible and acceptible which in itself is a sign of being safer all around. That change right there is what is seen as the place where the differences between "them" and "us" is being blurred. And for those of us who might have gotten into the sport in part because we definitely already felt out of the mainstream and we wanted to keep it that way, this is overcrowding and it it's homogenity and it's going from silly & amusing to dominant & controlling in a generation or two.

I agree, essentially, with what you say. I don't think it's a good idea to let people get hurt. Educating people sometimes must include teaching survival and it's opposite, as realities of the sport, rather than allow people to think and act as though it's all tiddly-winks. You don't see as many 'BSBD' scribblings anymore. Skull & crossbones don't show up as much. These were reminders that it ain't tiddly-winks. It appears some people think that's where it's headed though. And while tiddly-winks isn't a bad thing, it isn't skydiving either and it shouldn't be called skydiving. (Did I just date myself with the tiddly-winks thing?)

[jmidgley 0]

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In 1987 the first "outside the sport" vendor showed up at the Bridge Day trade show. It was "No Fear" a company none of us ever heard of before. We thought their shirts were ridiculous and told them they'd probably sell more if instead they said "Big Fear."

It was some time later that they showed up in hang-gliding, mostly to hoots of derision. I always thought a brand called 'Know Fear' would be more plausible, but I'm too lazy to capitalise on it. Feel free.

John

[gordy 0]

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Is skydiving too safe

No.

[Unparagoned 0]

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>
You can see the latter people at DZ's all the time doing things like comparing skydiving to driving. "Hey, I could get killed driving home!" Well, yeah, and you could get leprosy too, but that doesn't make skydiving any safer.

I think the key issue is what you consider as safe, and what is an acceptable risk. You could be killed in a car accident does that make driving a car not safe? Most people would say driving is quite safe. They are saying even though there are risks, that these risks are not that great, using this view skydiving is "safe" to them. The limit between something being safe and not is completely arbitrary and varies from person to person.

[justaflygirl 0]

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Personally I enjoy the freedom of skydiving. From the time you leave the plane to getting your feet on the ground you are free and in control of your life. There is nothing else that matters during that time.

This is why I too jump. Over the years skydiving has become much safer thanks to technology, education and a lot of other important factors. Skydiving will always be an extreme sport, every time you make the decision to jump, you are taking your life in your hands, afterall...you can do everything right and still die. I am personally thankful that it has gotten much safer over the years, this hopefully means for me that I will be around much longer to enjoy it.