False sense of security?

[scrublink 0]

After reading some comments in the Safety and Training and the Incident forum I started wondering about the following.

Due to the advances of the last decade or so, do we as instructors, instill a false sense of secuity in new skydivers? I have run into several who think it is near suicidal to (pick one) open below 4K, jump without an AAD, jump without a RSL, or even jump without a hard helmet. I know I am guilty of this when I reassure tandem students. I tend to point out all the bells and whistles.
When I started I didn't had an AAD or an RSL. All I had was a well used rig a pair of goggles and an altimeter. Had my first reserve ride around jump numbe 42. A total. Got packed and jumped the next day. I have seen people have reserve rides and its like they finally realize that this is seious shit. You could buy the farm (or at least rent a sizeable portion). These are the same people that quit after they lose their first friend to the sport.
I now have an AAD but not an RSL. The rig is newer and for RW I wear a helmet to keep offending feet at bay during exit. I am not against these devices, just wondering if that they and our new training methods make people feal an unrealistic level of safety. A no bounce guarentee if you will.
Any thoughts?

[AlexCrowley 0]

Ok, I think I'm in that catagory with a whopping 17 jumps.

First, I'm a father in my mid thirties, so YMMV, I know where I am in my life and what I consider to be my priorities.

I dont think 'false sense' fits. Sure I was concerned about my 3500' HnP, and yes I wouldnt ump without an AAD - because my wife wouldnt let me near the plane ;)

I have wanted to skydive since I could ever remember. I know that things have evolved and become statistically less injurious. But I know that skydiving is dangerous. I know that statistically there is a very high probability of a hospitalizing injury (broken bone or greater). I also am at peace with the truth that there is a significant risk that I may die, either through my own error, someone elses or freak chance.

On my recurrency jump 5 weeks ago I was so scared doing my exit count that my AFF coach (who trained me last year and is now a friend) was laughing about it afterwards with my wife. The second I stepped out into the air it disappeared and I remembered why I did this.

I am not suicidal, a death freak, fatalistic, pessimistic. I simply accept the fact that when it is my time, it will be my time. Until that moment arrives I will take every available precaution, piece of technology, education and self discipline to put that day off for as long as I can.

Any time you pit yourself against nature, you always risk nature finding a way to mess with you - no matter how many things you put in place to reduce that risk.

Denial is a very very powerful thing. I think it's as easy for low number guys like me to have the totems of AAD and RSL as a mental crutch as the 300 - 600+ jump skygods believe in their immortality by divine right. (based on warnings I had drilled into me by my first jumpmasters w/3k, 8k and 14k jumps respectively)

My biggest fear is to jump without a beginners mindset, without expecting something to go wrong, without being prepared and educated on one of those things that can go wrong.

But I dont think this is a problem with AFF coaching, or the focus placed on the new safety techologies available. I see exactly the same sense of immortality displayed by some of the 18 - 26 year old professional wrestlers I train alongside and do shows with, who do high risk flips and insanely dangerous falls - Massachusetts alone has had two fatalities at wrestling shows in the last 12 months due to high risk moves. Both head injuries. It never makes mainstream press because no one really cares about prowrestling - which is the only reason it stays unregulated.

Like skydivers, wrestlers are aware of the risks and the kids minimize them and remain in denial. Injuries are guaranteed, there's a lot of guys who are retiring at 35 and looking forward to the rest of their lives in constant pain from the physical grind (I know a little about that after only a few years). The kids active in the sport dont even think about it. They see their mentors hobbling around, their friends on crutches, in hospital emergency rooms late friday and saturday nights getting treated for whatever break, gash or tear and still think it could never happen to them and even when it does, if it doesnt cause their retirement they'll ignore doctors orders and get back in the ring the next week - even after major surgeries against medical orders (I have seen this happen repeatedly - eg, knee surgery recovery time = 3 months, these kids are fighting thru the pain and returning to the ring after 2 or 3 weeks, insanity).

I think this is why Dzs have bounce bingo, wrestlers have their own less structured system, the vast majority are never going to see through their denial - the ones that are on the edge make our lists, but I dont think they are the only ones guilty of making that severe a misjudgement.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Ron 7]

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Due to the advances of the last decade or so, do we as instructors, instill a false sense of secuity in new skydivers?

No, I think the instill it into themselves.

They tell themselves that they will be fine since they have AAD's, RSL's, and will pull high.

AFF does not help. I mean many AFF students are scared to death of freefall below 4 grand. So what happens when they find themselves at 3 grand?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Orange1 0]

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Due to the advances of the last decade or so, do we as instructors, instill a false sense of secuity in new skydivers?

No, I think the instill it into themselves.

There's a bit in Brian Germain's book - I don't think he says it explicitly but implies that novices will believe the sport to be safer than it really is because it's just about the only way they can actually get themselves to jump out a plane. The more experience you get, the more you can "allow" yourself to recognise the dangers. For myself, in my very limited experience, this is true.

If not for this website, I would probably still be believing skydiving is safer than it is, though. So awareness of the risks is an important part of being safe.

Having said all that, AADs etc do help make the sport safer (not safe), and that can't be a bad thing. As a static line baby I have no problem with hop'n'pops, and (much to the dismay of some people here) I have jumped without an AAD. But I will have one in my own rig (which is just waiting for me to be able to downsize into it) because, in the words of one of my instructors, anything that may help save your life is worth getting.

There's a fine line to be trod between making sure students understand the dangers, and frightening them away from the sport. It's not an easy one. Having said that, in my very limited experience, I believe that the dangers are downplayed somewhat, but not only due to the existence of the various safety items. Someone once posted here something along the lines of "when you jump out a plane, you're effectively dead until you do something to save your life". THAT is something I think students need to understand.

Just my very newbie 2c worth.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[juliebird 0]

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I know that statistically there is a very high probability of a hospitalizing injury (broken bone or greater). I also am at peace with the truth that there is a significant risk that I may die, either through my own error, someone elses or freak chance.

I hope I'm not being too optimistic, but I guess I'll also point out that there is a very high probability that you will not have a hospitalizing injury, and an even greater probability that you will not die. The glass... it's half full.

[jasonRose 0]

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I know that statistically there is a very high probability of a hospitalizing injury (broken bone or greater). I also am at peace with the truth that there is a significant risk that I may die, either through my own error, someone elses or freak chance.

I hope I'm not being too optimistic, but I guess I'll also point out that there is a very high probability that you will not have a hospitalizing injury, and an even greater probability that you will not die. The glass... it's half full.

I second that!!!

I went AFF the whole way!! I do not have a fear of going to lower alti but I do respect it. I have never had a mal thus far and pulling around 3500' gives me a little extra time to deal with any problems that may occur. I like that!

Alti = time to react!

Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!!

[nate_1979 9]

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Alti = time to react!

As "they" say, the altitude above you doesnt do you any good.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[dgskydive 0]

I tell ya this. If we didn't have AAD's we would have a lot less jumpers.

I saw a post the other day and the guy rode the palne down becuase he didn't turn his Cypres on. I mean he has every right to not jump and shoould not do so if he doesn't feel safe, but if you rely on a Cypres then maybe youshouldn't be jumping. I mean.... you are responsible for your life and to trust a computer more then you trust yourself? If yout hink you won't pull or will lose awarness then maybe this isn't he sport for that type of person.

Computers break all the time and the Cypres/Vigil?FXc, Whatever you use is no sure thing.

Dom

[AlexCrowley 0]

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I hope I'm not being too optimistic, but I guess I'll also point out that there is a very high probability that you will not have a hospitalizing injury, and an even greater probability that you will not die. The glass... it's half full.

Perhaps some of the veteran jumpers could weigh in on that one for us.

Juliebird, I"m going to guess from your name and your icon that you're female, and that your profile is also accurate. Would you walk around your town at night alone?

My wife had a similar response to my post when she read it last night, I asked her if I could go drop her off in the town center at 1am so she could go for a walk. She declined.

For me it's not so much about it definitely happening. It's about a basic respect for an activity that has a very small margin of error and is unforgiving when they do occur.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Ron 7]

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Perhaps some of the veteran jumpers could weigh in on that one for us.

Juliebird, I"m going to guess from your name and your icon that you're female, and that your profile is also accurate. Would you walk around your town at night alone?

REALLY rough statistics for the US.

USPA has ~34000 jumpers.
~34 die a year.

So REALLY rough math here says about 1/1000 will die.

Statistics show that about HALF of these deaths are under good canopies BTW.

1/1000 jumpers will die this year.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[somethinelse 0]

I've got a 'little' hurt A LOT:
twisted/sprained ankles,
breaking/jamming SAME toe(rt. foot 2nd toe), seriously jammed fingers,
& strained muscles.

BUT Up until this year, when I attended my first Safety Day, I thought that with all the precautionary devices in the gear I was using, kept me pretty safe, as long as I did the right thing at the right time.

Safety Day was informative...
...I got enlightened, and I GOT SCARED!
Sometimes, things can or will go wrong. and you'll find yourself in deep trouble...bad opening, complete mal, or horse-shoe- or God forbid a reserve-main entanglement.

I have since talked over all my new doubts and "what to do's?" if this or that with the regular staff.

Always be prepared, and strive to DO BEST allthat YOU DO HAVE CONTROL over, and prepare to react to all emergencies in advance,

So that WHEN crap happens, you can quickly respond. But now, really, isn't the danger element part of the THRILL?

PS
I want to know worst case scenarios, and how to deal with what happens to prepare cut-aways or WHATEVER may happen next.

Bring it on!

Blues-LuLu

[scrublink 0]

The danger element isn't what attracted me, nor is it what keeps me going. I jump because it is something to do. It is fairly enjoyable and I find that for the enjoyment, that the risk is acceptable to me.

[txhoss 0]

Could not have put it better myself SCRUBLINK

Have Rig will travel ...

[MB38 0]

I've had the dreaded ball-under malfunction once. I'm still recovering from that one. Skydiving's going to take away my children!

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[somethinelse 0]

DANGER in and of it self is NOT exactly the appeal.
BUT
I do recognize that I do LOVE the ADRENALINE-rush AS WELL AS the peaceful freeness that comes with the jumping and freefalling.
OK?
Ya see where I'm coming from?

[scrublink 0]

Yes. Yes I do. Some people, I am sure, are attracted only because of the danger.

[Jeth 0]

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There's a fine line to be trod between making sure students understand the dangers, and frightening them away from the sport. It's not an easy one. Having said that, in my very limited experience, I believe that the dangers are downplayed somewhat, but not only due to the existence of the various safety items. Someone once posted here something along the lines of "when you jump out a plane, you're effectively dead until you do something to save your life". THAT is something I think students need to understand.

Just my very newbie 2c worth.

I personally do not like the analogy of "when you jump out a plane, you're effectively dead until you do something to save your life". I mean, that is also true every time you get in the car and drive down the highway! You are dead unless you apply pressure to the brakes and use the steering wheel to stop the car from crashing into something. But with that said, it DOES need to be made clear to students that THEY ALONE are responsible for getting themselves safely to the ground on every skydive. If someone wants to take up skydiving they must have confidence in themselves to do whats necessary to land safely no matter what they may be presented with.

I think it was obvious to me the sport can be dangerous. (Once I was in AFP, not on my tandems) For myself, I would be uncomfortable jumping without an AAD. I also urge my friends to use one. Not because I don't trust myself and need to rely on a device. Shit happens! I just read the discussion about unconcious jumpers. Someday that could be me and that'd really suck if I died cuz I konked my head and was too cheap to spend $1000 on something that could've kept me alive. I'm stacking the odds as far in my favor as I can!
But my biggest fear or sense of danger in this sport is a canopy collision. I have heard of so many people losing their lives that way. It could just take one guy a split second to take me out. (Or me to take someone else out.) Of course there are other "shit happens" possibilities in the sport, but thats the one I think of every time I go to the dz.

I don't think the danger was downplayed to me in AFP. We were told that the fatality rate is low, but also that anything can happen. I DO think AFF/AFP students are scared of lower openings. But thats not necessarily from instruction. Well, maybe a little because I remember my instructors often telling me "don't worry, you're at 5500 ft, you have lots of time." So that could've made me think "Well then if I'm at 2500 ft I don't have a lot of time!" I was scared of my 3500 HnP, but it was fun once I did it. I do worry about having a mal at that altitude, though. And I often wonder about aircraft emergencies. I would definitely be freaked to bail out at 1000 ft, especially with others right behind me! I do think that is a big benefit of doing S/L versus AFF, they seem much more comfortable down lower.

And I agree with someone else who said the sport would have a lot fewer participants if we were using the same stuff they used 20 yrs ago. Kudos to you old-timers for staying alive without the stuff, but I'm glad its available to me.
Ok, there is my newbie 2 cents.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[Jeth 0]

Danger had nothing to do with why I took up skydiving. I thought it would be a thrill. (NOT based on being dangerous, like a roller coaster-type thrill.) What I found was that it was so much more than just a thrill. Its a sense of accomplishment, pride, and complete joy. It frees my mind, and challenges me every time I go up. It gives me wonderful friends who I can count on.

The appeal for me has absolutely nothing to do with it being dangerous. I decided the benefits I get from it outweigh the risks and thats why I keep doing it.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[Andy9o8 0]

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I personally do not like the analogy of "when you jump out a plane, you're effectively dead until you do something to save your life".

You may not like it, but it happens to be true. More so than with virtually any other human activity. If that's sobering, well, it's supposed to be.

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I mean, that is also true every time you get in the car and drive down the highway!

This is another form of the MYTH that driving is more dangerous than skydiving. It's not. If you let go of the steering wheel & do nothing with the brake, you'll go off the road, and you may very well survive. But unless you've got the little gizmo backing you up, the simple truth is, you jump out of an airplane, you do nothing, you die. Every time. It's as simple as that.

It helps to say these things out loud.

[gkc1436 3]

.....i have no problem with safety devices, rsl's, aad's etc...etc....

BUT,
i also believe that if your aad fires and your not knocked out, you should be escorted off the field, your membership to the uspa be canceled
and your name entered into a database of people not allowed to jump.
REASON
you just broke the most basic rule of the sport.....save your own life at a reasonable altitude....if you are unable to do the most basic thing in in the sport.....see ya!!! bye....the bowling ally is down the street, and dont drop the ball on your toes's ...it might break your toes...

pull prioritys.....
1>pull
2>pull at the right altitude
3>pull at the right altitude while stable

it is the jumper's responsability to stop freefall period!!
it is also the jumpers responsability to open high enough to deal with any glitchs or malfunctions that might cause a cut away

RSL: while its really nice to have something that pulls your reserve for you.....it's still your job!!!
sorry ????you were to low to pull your reserve on a timely basis ....who's fault is that??? your mothers??
WRONG!!!!!

your fault....not the kid standing behind you making fart noises....yours and yours alone....


while i dont have a problem with people using safety devices.....i do have a problem with people abusing them....
if you rely on mechanical devices to do the job you should have been trained for.....and should be prepared to do.....

maybe you shouldnt be in this sport

g

[EvilLurker 2]

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i also believe that if your aad fires and your not knocked out, you should be escorted off the field, your membership to the uspa be canceled
and your name entered into a database of people not allowed to jump.

Amen to that. Add "Wash Helmut Cloth's car for a month" and I'm with you 100%.