Landing patterns and swooping.

[Deuce 1]

Loiter, downwind, base, final. Left turns only.

Except for swoopers, and demanded by some canopies, the need for more than a 90 degree turn to final.

Not all DZ's have room or money for a separate landing area for swoopers. Last night I tried to join a discussion with some dominant swoopers at my DZ about how to accomodate "regular" pattern jumpers with those that do a 90 right and a 270 (or similar) left to final. Two of the three just walked away and the third just kind of looked at me kind of sad, like I just couldn't understand the concept because I generally don't ever do more than a 90 left to final.

I would have posted this in swooping, but it's not really about swooping. It's about going to a dropzone and being told that it's a left hand pattern and expecting to participate in a left hand pattern and being surprised by low level acrobatics.

The rule: "First one down sets the pattern" and the first one down rips a 180 at 200 feet when a jumper is set up behind him for a straight in forces that jumper to either rip a 180 too, or divert. Skydivers up high then see canopies landing in different directions and sometimes things really deteriorate into a free-for-all. I have heard swoopers say they get down so much faster than everybody else that they are not a factor, that when they are done with the landing area the "boat" fliers can then go back to their mundane downwind-base-final approaches.

Having had the priveledge of watching most of the NorCal Canopy competitions that were held at Byron(congrats Vic!), I was impressed by how each swooper developed a pretty unique approach to generate the velocity necessary to get speed and distance to set new records.

What has set me off is this "rolling of the eyes" "you don't get to sit with the grown-ups" attitude I have encountered when trying to discuss this with some swoopers.

How to have everybody (AFF, tandems, swoopers, boats, and tandems) safely, out of one plane, into a single landing area. Can't ban swooping, can't just do 90's. Any suggestions?

[jsaxton 0]

Personally I think that if these guys want to bust the stack because "my parachute comes down so fast" they need to land away (except on the sunset load ;). Just because they have a high descent rate does not override the fact that the lower canopy has the right of way.

Kieth is really good about this BTW.

[davelepka 4]

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I think that if these guys want to bust the stack because "my parachute comes down so fast" they need to land away

Anyone who says this, needs to land away due to lack of ability.

There is no excuse for any swooper to impose upon others in order for them to get their swoop on. If a pilot truly posses the skill to swoop, then they also posses the skills to fly slow, navigate through traffic, and revise their flight plan at any time due to unforseen circumstances. Anyone swooping who lacks these skills needs to dial it back a notch, and go back to esatblish the basic skills they skipped over in their rush to swoop.

For the record, I fly a highly loaded Velo, and have no problem flying along with a student under a Navigator while on my way back from a tandem video.

All canopies can fly slow.

[jlmiracle 7]

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There is no excuse for any swooper to impose upon others in order for them to get their swoop on. If a pilot truly posses the skill to swoop, then they also posses the skills to fly slow, navigate through traffic, and revise their flight plan at any time due to unforseen circumstances. Anyone swooping who lacks these skills needs to dial it back a notch, and go back to esatblish the basic skills they skipped over in their rush to swoop.

This is one of the most awesome posts I've seen on swooping/swooper and their (some of them) lack of consideration.


Davelepka you are right on!

The only way to "fix" this problem is to let them out on their own pass. If swooping is why they jump, let them out at 4000 ft. Just think of money they would save.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[tsisson 0]

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Loiter, downwind, base, final. Left turns only.


The rule: "First one down sets the pattern" and the first one down rips a 180 at 200 feet when a jumper is set up behind him for a straight in forces that jumper to either rip a 180 too, or divert. Skydivers up high then see canopies landing in different directions and sometimes things really deteriorate into a free-for-all.

AMEN brother...I've thought about this same thing for some time, and too have been frustrated at times especially when jumping at an unfamiliar DZ with the various landing "cultures".

I think the simplest thing is to communicate about the pattern and direction of landing before getting on the aircraft. Communication means discussing things like light and variable/shifting winds etc...

One of the golden rules to Skydiving is "Always have a plan". Discuss the landing plan before getting on the Aircraft...execute that plan.

[GravityGirl 0]

JP, you said, "Rule: First one down sets the pattern."

Surely you are not talking about Byron. For as long as I have been jumping there the rule has been:

Left hand pattern.
Land into the wind.
No wind, land to the north.

The discussion you are talking about involved one very big ego that happened to be bruised when you decided to join the conversation. Maybe you took it personally.

Big Swooper #1 just got reprimanded by Big Swooper #2 and DZM for flying a right hand pattern.

Continued discusssion is what makes Byron such a safe drop zone. This happens. Your input is welcome. But at the same time, there are times when you should be sensative to some of the long time jumpers.

You are learning a lot... quickly. Your input is valid. But we all have big egos in this sport. The charactors you are describing are open to comments. But timing and delivery play a huge factor in listening to your ideas and telling you to "fuck off".

Just my humble opinion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Deuce 1]

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Surely you are not talking about Byron. For as long as I have been jumping there the rule has been: Your input is welcome. But at the same time, there are times when you should be sensative to some of the long time jumpers.

You are learning a lot... quickly. Your input is valid. ... But timing and delivery play a huge factor in listening to your ideas and telling you to "fuck off".

Just my humble opinion.

Bonnie, you left "humble" regarding offering your opinion, way behind, long before I ever met you.

Obviously.



I really don't have any ideas regarding this. That's why I'm posting the question here.

I was referring to dropzones other than Byron that I have jumped at quite a bit, regarding the first pilot down sets the pattern. I think that has been given as a solution to pattern conflict, and I haven't seen that it works. I think the rule that Byron has is the best one I've seen so far, when it is observed.

As a "regular" canopy pilot on a Spectre loaded 1.56:1, why is it that traffic problems, just about everywhere in skydiving, are the business of the swoopers? You made my question seem specific to Sunday evening. It's not. It's a discussion that comes up every full day I've skydived this season. I have never heard a systematic answer that more than two people agreed with.

Here it is again: Without using separate planes, without banning swooping, or creating a separate swooping area, or prohibiting turns over 90 degrees, how do we safely explain a pattern to an "A" license ticket holder that incorporates what to expect from swoopers.

Now, I regret it if jumpers at my DZ take this personally. It's not about Byron. If I didn't think it was my best choice, I wouldn't jump there.

I'm actually thinking of me. When I visit dropzones with a single landing area, where I don't know what canopies to look out for, make way for, and avoid, what questions do I need to ask?

The kind of swooping that gets a pilot into serious competition seems to prevent a series of three 90 degree turns to landing, right? Qualified pilots who want to take their landing to the next level should be allowed to do so. So when those pilots are ready to take their landings and canopies to the next level, how to they do that safely in the same pattern they observed as students?

The easiest one to see coming and teach students about is the big hard-carving 180. It's a downwind to base-final without stops.

What I have heard is "the swoopers are down way before the students so the students don't have to worry about it" (not just at Byron)

I'm an optimist. I believe it can be done, safely.

On the water, it's easy, the more maneuverable craft must make way.

So, if my timing is not off so much that I need to be told to fuck off, again, what is a good, simple rule like that that swoopers and non-swoopers can follow to both of their benefit?

[mjosparky 3]

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There is no excuse for any swooper to impose upon others in order for them to get their swoop on. If a pilot truly posses the skill to swoop, then they also posses the skills to fly slow, navigate through traffic, and revise their flight plan at any time due to unforseen circumstances. Anyone swooping who lacks these skills needs to dial it back a notch, and go back to esatblish the basic skills they skipped over in their rush to swoop.

I jump at a dropzone that is home to some of the best canopy pilots in the world. The ones that are the best are not the ones that cause a problem, its the ones that think they are they they are that and feel the need to show off that cause a problem in the main landing area. The ones with 500 jumps that think they are pro circuit material.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[AggieDave 6]

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and demanded by some canopies, the need for more than a 90 degree turn to final.

Show me a canopy on the market that HAS to have a high performance approach to be landed correctly and safely.

There isn't a production canopy on the market like that, its a BS excuse by some swoopers.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[scrublink 0]

I usually like to point out to some people, (the ones that say they need to pick up speed to land), that since they are flying a wing that their argument doesn't hold up. Its the whole laws of physics thing. If they needed to pick up speed to land, then when I am flying a fixed wing aircraft, I would need to pick up some speed to land. I can just imagine if I sprung this argument on a fixed wing aircraft pilot. I didn't come in fast, I need that speed to flare.

Biggest line I have seen.

Now that this is posted you will likely see someone rebut this. If your canopy needs to be flown very fast in order to avoid a high sink rate then either the canopy is poorly designed or you are loading it past what it can handle. When a wing stalls it won't fly so technically I could go for this argument on some of the extreme canopies out there. These guys don't usually cause any problems though. If they are skilled enough to jump them they are skilled enough to not be dangerous to others. If they are not skilled enough they soon become a statistic. The wannaba swoopers are the ones you will here this argument coming from.

[billvon 2,400]

>There isn't a production canopy on the market like that . . .

Agreed. Any canopy can be landed straight in. If a jumper doesn't know how to land their canopy without a swoop, they should upsize before they kill themselves.

[Deuce 1]

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>There isn't a production canopy on the market like that . . .

Agreed. Any canopy can be landed straight in. If a jumper doesn't know how to land their canopy without a swoop, they should upsize before they kill themselves.

But Bill, I think it's agreed that to generate significant velocity, more than a double-fronts has to be used. Any suggestions on how that can be incorporated into one pattern that safely includes everybody?

[flyangel2 2]

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What has set me off is this "rolling of the eyes" "you don't get to sit with the grown-ups" attitude I have encountered when trying to discuss this with some swoopers.

Gee JP, get with the program. You are just too old to understand

I'm proud of you for not using your "charming personality" to get them to see things your way.

I'll be attending the swooping comp here in Colorado next month. (the other JP is coming out and I get to babysit him) I'm excited to watch the pros do some swooping. What I have noticed is the swoopers at the lower level, are the ones that roll the eyes when you talk to them. The Pros don't get in the way of the landing pattern, because they don't have to prove a thing to anyone. I think it's the stupid stick causing the other swoopers to make a bad descion when it comes to safety.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Deuce 1]

But Mary, the conversation where my opinion was not wanted was among swoopers who are all eligible to participate at that event. Great guys, creative geniuses, all, but among them, and among most swoopers at that tier, they are not uniform in their approaches, IMO, they are artistic. I really appreciate that genius, and if I had started half my life ago, I would like to think I'd be among them. I just can't take being out of the sport for six months waiting for an ankle or knee to heal up, and unfortunately for me, that's part of my learning curve.

The competition at that level is pretty fearsome, and even the top tier people don't agree on uniformity, I suspect rejecting uniformity is part of what has garnered their success.

At the competition, they will have the sky each to themselves, if it's like it was at the NorCal Swoop competition, they will hop and pop and then take their turns before cranking and banking their way into the gates.

How do swoopers learn to crank and bank when they are in the pattern with the rest of the load?

Tell SoCal I said Hi!

[Canuck 0]

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If swooping is why they jump, let them out at 4000 ft.

Indeed, swooping is why I jump. Unfortunately, I've picked up some bad habits along the way that necessitate going higher than 4000 feet, like doing AFF, tandem video, flying camera for my freefly team, etc. But be damn sure, I am going to swoop at the end of every skydive I make, unless by doing so I am going to put the safety of myself or anybody else in jeopardy.

I fly predictably, even for those who have never seen me land before. Anybody above me under canopy would think I was setting up for the traditional down-wind, base, final approach, and if they blinked right as I threw my 270, they probably wouldn't even notice that I hadn't just done a 90 on to final.

Fly predictable, fly safe, fly heads up - everyone, not just the swoopers. That's the key to everyone getting to the ground safely. Sashaying through the pattern gets in the way of way more people than diving into it.

Oh yeah, and don't get out of the plane if you're going to open down-wind of the landing area - that makes it real hard to get into the pattern in the first place. I've seen shitty spotting cause WAY more traffic issues than swooping.

Canuck

[GravityGirl 0]

It's important to teach the landing pattern.

In todays environment, it is equally important to teach a student the different types of landings. Straight in, and the varying degrees of high performance landings.

EVERYONE should fly the same pattern. When you look in the air, it should resemble a tidy bowl flush.

At some point there will be pilots who come straight in. Then there will be those that have flown the pattern to their desired spot and perform a landing turn. That turn is not part of the pattern. How they get to the point they initiate that turn is part of the pattern. IMO.

It it the absolute responsibility of the high performance pilot to rally for his/her slot to accomodate clear air once he/she gets to that point.

It is also good form for the straight in approacher, to rally for his/her slot and realize that if a canopy above them is gaining on them, they should let it pass.

If you do not have the ability to evaluate all of the canopies in the pattern and acurately gage the slot you should take, then your canopy just might be too small.

This is one of the biggest points I make during gear consultations and student instruction. Smaller parachutes mean less decision time in the pattern.

Each and every jumper, regardless of landing style should be able to gage their rate of decent in relation to the other parachutes in the air.

There are variables that come up and keep us challenged. But that is another story.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[billvon 2,400]

>But Bill, I think it's agreed that to generate significant velocity, more
> than a double-fronts has to be used. Any suggestions on how that
> can be incorporated into one pattern that safely includes everybody?

Not sure what the issue is. You don't need significant velocity to land, you just need it to do a really good swoop. In a busy pattern, you have two choices (IMO):

1. Land straight in

2. Fly the pattern, and do a front riser 90 from base to final. It's still a 90 degree turn, and everyone knows where you'll be next. And if you know what you're doing you can get a decent swoop.

If it is important to do more of a turn than that, no problem - just land off, or open high and wait, or take another pass.

[Guest]

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It is also good form for the straight in approacher, to rally for his/her slot

I'm unfamiliar with the phrase 'rally for my slot" please explain and no I'm not joking.

Just went to the SDO boogie, there's plenty of room so I just landed way down in the student area. Light/var winds. Usually 14-18 high perf canopies on an Otter load, the tandems went on the caravan all weekend. Always watched the first few down but I never knew which way they would actually be landing (due to all their low turns/180s etc) until I actually saw them come to a stop.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Duece ... swoopers need to communicate with people on the load prior to boarding the airplane and then the swoopers need to stick to the plan so that there are no surprises. Also, when you're on the airplane have a look around to see who's on the load and what sort of jump they are doing and what sort of canopy they may fly. People need to have an idea before they jump as to where they can fit themselves into the landing pattern. Once again, this reduces the surprises. Plus non-swoopers would do themselves a favor by educating themselves on what a swooper is actually doing up in the skies. This way the non-swooper can recognize what the swooper is setting up to do and avoid following them. Once again this will help reduce the surprises. It's up to swoopers and non-swoopers to communicate with each other. Ultimately swoopers must always be prepared to abort their swoop when traffic is an issue. Two people's lives are on the line.

Let's work together instead of fighting each other.

PS: I know there are non-swoopers who think they are swoopers who are out there who fly poor patterns, can't get themselves to proper setup points and still induce speed for the thrill of the swoop. Some of these people will wise up, some won't. You can't change people. People must want to change for themselves.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[davelepka 4]

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The ones that are the best are not the ones that cause a problem, its the ones that think they are they they are that and feel the need to show off that cause a problem in the main landing area

Yep. I agree 100% with this, but I have no idea what to do about it.

This is one reason why I'm a big supporter of WL restrictions, and a MUCH slower progression to swooping than most seem to follow. Jumpers make the mistake of thinking that if they could live through a 180, in the middle of a clear landing area on a day with favorable weather that they are ready to swoop. What they don't realize is that pulling a riser at the right time is a very small part of the swooping equation. Without sufficient time under a wing to develop the core skills, to make flying a canopy second nature, they are shorting themselves, and asking for trouble if they should find themselves in a tight spot.

The other side of the coin is that non-swoopers also need to be diligent in developing their skills as well. Traffic management, weather, and canopy handling skills are no less important than if you were swooping.

Alll jumpers need to realize that there are other jumpers in the sky who may or may not be paying attention to the world around them. If you count on someone to act in a certain way in order for your skydive to end safley, you are setting yourself up for trouble. Fly your body and your canopy defensively. Protect yourself, and in turn you are doing your best to protect others.

[GravityGirl 0]

When I say "Rally for my Slot" (leave it alone), I mean determining where I will fall into the pattern amongst the other parachutes.

I'll consider my decent rate in relation to all the other canopies in the air. And then I'll do my best to judge where I should fall in to have the most air space. The idea is make sure I'm not a hazard to myself or others.

If I get out last with an AFF, I'll still land before quite a few lightly loaded jumpers who exited first. Even though they are below me at first, I know that I am out-decending them, and I'll end up somewhere in the mix. It's up to me to determine where I should fit into the mix. I'm "rallying for my slot". I guess. That's just what I've always called it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Deuce 1]

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>But Bill, I think it's agreed that to generate significant velocity, more
> than a double-fronts has to be used. Any suggestions on how that
> can be incorporated into one pattern that safely includes everybody?

Not sure what the issue is. You don't need significant velocity to land, you just need it to do a really good swoop. In a busy pattern, you have two choices (IMO):

1. Land straight in

2. Fly the pattern, and do a front riser 90 from base to final. It's still a 90 degree turn, and everyone knows where you'll be next. And if you know what you're doing you can get a decent swoop.

If it is important to do more of a turn than that, no problem - just land off, or open high and wait, or take another pass.

I was referring to generating a swoop with a turn greater than 90 degrees.

Swooping is sexy, and big swoops after 180-degree + setups are like porn. You may not approve or want to try it, but it's hard not to watch.

I like Bonnies term "Landing Turn".

The swoopers at Byron generally set up in brakes and take turns letting their brakes up and initiating their landing turns to swoop. Like when you are under canopy and you want to know if the other pilot can see you, you bicycle your legs, they bicycle back and you know they are aware you are there.

Maybe just the swooper clearing their airspace visually, setting up in brakes in cruciform for a moment before initiating their landing turn? Maybe that's the way to let other pilots know the swooper is about to dive out of the pattern on their final landing turn?

While I agree that a good swoop can be generated from a 90 degree turn, that simply isn't the goal of most aspiring swoopers. They generally want to do a 270 degree + or a series of 180 degree + turns to swoop.

How can we incorporate that into a standard flight pattern that allows for 180 degree+ high performance landing turns?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Maybe just the swooper clearing their airspace visually, setting up in brakes in cruciform for a moment before initiating their landing turn? Maybe that's the way to let other pilots know the swooper is about to dive out of the pattern on their final landing turn?

This is a great idea for the non-swooper to recognize a swooper in the skies. But you can't limit the approach type we fly. Some swoopers choose to initiate their turn in brakes and some choose to initiate in full flight (I like full flight). It's not uncommon for me to be flying my rears instead of my toggles to the setup point before I start my turn. It all depends on the winds and how I did flying to the setup.

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While I agree that a good swoop can be generated from a 90 degree turn, that simply isn't the goal of most aspiring swoopers. They generally want to do a 270 degree + or a series of 180 degree + turns to swoop.

How can we incorporate that into a standard flight pattern that allows for 180 degree+ high performance landing turns?

Swoopers and aspiring swoopers need to be realistic with their skills while going big on regular loads. Aspiring swoopers shouldn't be doing anything bigger than 90s on normal loads until they acquired some time doing the bigger stuff on hop n' pop loads first. But as Bonnie described, an experienced canopy pilot is proactive in finding their window of opportunity in the landing pattern and for them it's no problem going big with their swoop. But this skill isn't easily possessed and until the aspiring swooper spends time doing hop n' pops learning their canopy. They are a danger to themselves as well as everyone else in the sky when they think they can go big on a regular load.

If we're going to be safe up there folks, it's up to us swoopers to be smart and realistic with what we're doing under canopy. Swooping rocks!!! But it's not safe and there are no short cuts to having the skill, experience and ability to go big in the sport.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Loiter, downwind, base, final. Left turns only.

Except for swoopers, and demanded by some canopies, the need for more than a 90 degree turn to final.

No ram air parachutes require induced speed to get acceptable landings with the possible exception of some old ragged out F111 canopies that aren't relevant to this discussion.

A carving 90 at moderate wingloadings and beyond is sufficient for 50 MPH on RADAR.

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Two of the three just walked away and the third just kind of looked at me kind of sad, like I just couldn't understand the concept because I generally don't ever do more than a 90 left to final.

The first one down can fly a nice pattern with a 90 degree turn from base to final. At 1.6 - 1.7 pounds / square foot under an elliptical you can float with people loaded arround 1 pound/square foot. The situation is probably similar at higher loadings versus what other people typically fly. A fast canopy doesn't mean some one has to be first down.

The rest can integrate with traffic and land into the wind.