Do I have a reason to be concerned?

[MacGram 0]

I've done two tandems so far and have been checking out DZs to find one I'm most comfortable with in order to take lessons.

My radar/red flags were raised this weekend and I need to know whether I should trust my gut or if I'm worrying needlessly.

I've been reading and seem to remember mention of not flying through clouds. There were lots of (possibly) storm clouds over this DZ and lightning was not far away. I'm not a meteorologist but it looked like it had the possible makings for a good storm.

They loaded the plane (about four of which were tandems) and flew off. They did fly into the clouds and people obviously were coming through the clouds and opening (including the tandems). Is this safe and is it something that routinely happens?

Thanks for your comments.

[billvon 2,435]

Where was it? In Australia, for example, it's legal to jump through clouds at some DZ's.

[dragon2 0]

At our DZ jumping through clouds it is dangerous if there are gliders in the air. They like hanging out underneath clouds and are usually around or below opening altitude. You need to see others in the air to be able to avoid them. If there's no one else around though, and they know the spot is right (GPS), well.... I'd jump. Sometimes it only SEEMS from the ground that we're coming through the clouds, and the glider pilots start complaining, but often we have video proving we didn't go through any clouds and had the dropzone in view the whole jump too.

Storms are another matter, I once flew underneath a CB, don't want to repeat that!

But if there are no storms YET, and definately won't be for the duration of the jump, again, I'd jump.

It's not SMART to go through clouds, it's real smart to stay away from storms and to be able to see where you're getting out and where you're going, but, it happens. In some countries you wouldn't get to jump much, otherwise. But it's your choice, nobody will make you jump in weather conditions you don't like.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[MacGram 0]

It was in the midwest U.S. I know there's some degree of clouds you're going to go through. Not being up where they jumped, I don't know how clearly they could see. It was so full of clouds that I can't imagine they could see a thing.

I was just concerned after reading that you shouldn't go through clouds (for reasons which I can't remember exactly). If this is safe, then I won't concern myself any longer about it. I just know that I personally will not jump when there's lightning bolts coming out of the sky not far away.

[indyz 1]

Yesterday in Wisconsin we had scattered clouds at 4,000 feet and a solid layer somewhere up above 13,500. From the ground, it looked like we were weathered out. It just goes to show that in some situations the only way to know for sure is to go up and look.

[meltdown 0]

There's no such thing as clouds. It's "industrial haze".

[Remster 24]

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There's no such thing as clouds. It's "industrial haze".

Its your call. I hope you realize its also your responsability to make sure there is no air traffic when you jump.

Remster

[MacGram 0]

Thanks, Brian. I know now I can always go up and if it doesn't feel right to me, then I don't have to jump.

[MacGram 0]

You're right. I know I have MUCH to learn and once I've picked out a DZ, I can concentrate on those things. At this stage, I have some sense of my responsibilities, but clearly don't know all my responsibilities.

Since I'm not going to be able to start until spring, any recommendations on reading material that would benefit me?

Thanks much.

[skybytch 259]

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I hope you realize its also your responsability to make sure there is no air traffic when you jump.

And also realize that you're risking the pilot's livelihood by going through a cloud (in the US, anyway).

To the original question, in the US it is prohibited by the FAR's (Federal Aviation Regulations) to skydive through a cloud. Skydivers must maintain the same cloud clearances as VFR aircraft. If you can't see the ground beneath you, it's not legal to jump.

[MacGram 0]

Thanks, Lisa. Being new, I don't know this stuff. That's why I asked. If in doubt, I'll ask people as they come back. After that, best thing for me to do is go up, check it and decide. Thanks again.

[Samurai136 0]

Consult the FAA regulation FAR 105.17: http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_105-17.html

If less than 10,000 ft MSL (above sea level); 3 miles visiblity and dropping either 500 ft Below the clouds or 1000ft above the clouds with 2000 ft horizontal separation from clouds.

If more than 10,000 ft MSL; 5 miles visiblity and dropping 1,000 ft above or below clouds with 1 mile separation.

Depending on the weather conditions a ground observer may be unable to see the hole the skydivers are descending through and it would appear that a FAR has been broken when in fact it has not. Depth perception is an imperfect sense. The "makings" of a good storm could in fact be a thunderstorm that's ten miles away or a hundred miles away.

If the winds are looking jumpable and the pilot is willing to fly, there's no harm in going up to have a look at the conditions.
Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[tombuch 0]

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Since I'm not going to be able to start until spring, any recommendations on reading material that would benefit me?

First, jumping through clouds is dangerous and illegal. It does happen sometimes, but if the DZ was putting students and regular jumpers through large clouds you should select a different drop zone. I don't know everything about aviation, airplanes, or skydiving, but I do know enough to treat cloud jumps as an indicator of general safety. If a DZ is putting students through obvious clouds there may be many other issues that I'm not aware of. It's an attitude/culture thing.

Now for reading material: If you haven't picked up my book JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy, check it out. It was published by McGraw-Hill is is written for folks wondering how to evaluate a drop zone, and how to find the best DZ. Another solid book is "Parachuting: The Skydivers Handbook" by Turoff and Poynter. This one is written for beginners and experts, and should have lots of good information for you now, and you should be able to grow with it. Both books are available on Amazon.com and at many bookstores. There are some other solid books that will be good when you have a bit more experience, but I don't think they will do much for you at this stage.

Blue Skies,

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[mattjw916 2]

Show me a skydiver that has never jumped through "industrial haze" and I'll show you someone that sits on the ground a lot.

Show me a pilot that never violated the FARs with regard to horizontal and vertical cloud separation and well... you figure out the rest...

So, let me guess, you have never exceeded the posted speed limit either, have you?

edited to add that tombuch's book recommendations are excellent btw...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[MacGram 0]

Thanks, Tom.

I've already picked up The Skydivers Handbook and will pick up yours, too. I've got the winter to find out as much as I can. Are there any DVDs that are good for a beginner/student?

Thanks for the advice on the DZ. I'm going to be check out as many as I can before I decide.

[MacGram 0]

Matt, since you don't have access to my driving record, and can't dispute it, I'm going to say that I have never exceeded the posted speed limit!

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Quote

I hope you realize its also your responsability to make sure there is no air traffic when you jump.

And also realize that you're risking the pilot's livelihood by going through a cloud (in the US, anyway).

To the original question, in the US it is prohibited by the FAR's (Federal Aviation Regulations) to skydive through a cloud. Skydivers must maintain the same cloud clearances as VFR aircraft. If you can't see the ground beneath you, it's not legal to jump.

Besides, you know you can't absorb oxygen through your skin whiloe falling through a cloud (the way everyone knows you breath in freefall) and you risk suffocation.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[MacGram 0]

Thanks to everyone for the great advice and comments. I still have a lot to learn and hope to see some of you in the skies some day. Got to get back to work now so I can afford to jump next spring and summer.

to you all!

[kelpdiver 2]

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If more than 10,000 ft MSL; 5 miles visiblity and dropping 1,000 ft above or below clouds with 1 mile separation.

Depending on the weather conditions a ground observer may be unable to see the hole the skydivers are descending through and it would appear that a FAR has been broken when in fact it has not. Depth perception is an imperfect sense.

I don't know - a hole 2 miles in diameter is pretty damn big. Hard to miss.

[AndyMan 7]

It really does depend on the specifics of the storm.

Most jump planes take 20 minutes to climb to altitude. You have to plan your jump not for the current weather, but for the weather 20 minutes into the future. That can be tricky, but sometimes it's easier, too.

In Chicago this last weekend we had conditions where a storm was moving to the northeast, but was passing a few miles south of the DZ. Lightning was visible when the load was preparing but it was clear from watching Doppler RADAR that the storm would be well off to the east by the time the jumpers were exiting. This proved to be the case when the jump went off without a hitch and the jumpers were thrilled to see some spectacular weather safely from altitude. To be honest, I was jealous I didn't make the load. They all landed with a clear blue sky overhead.

Pilots and jumpers do try to avoid jumping through clouds. Often times jumpers find themselves on the edge of a cloud and end up briefly falling through the edge of it. In those cases radio communication between the ground can be used to ensure the safety of those jumpers. I know at Chicagoland this weekend there was constant monitoring of Doppler RADAR and constant communication with the pilot during jumping.

To answer your question, concerns are always a good thing and it's always a great idea to speak up if you feel unsafe. You don't ever have to jump.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I don't know - a hole 2 miles in diameter is pretty damn big. Hard to miss.

Hard to hit. Given a 2-mile hole, you would have to hit the exact center to be legal, i.e., 1 mile from the cloud.

Derek

[kelpdiver 2]

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Quote

I don't know - a hole 2 miles in diameter is pretty damn big. Hard to miss.

Hard to hit. Given a 2-mile hole, you would have to hit the exact center to be legal, i.e., 1 mile from the cloud.

Derek

I'm referring to the observer on the ground. The person I replied to suggested that they couldn't accurately see the skies well enough to know that the conditions were good for jumping.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Oops, I misunderstood

Derek