n23x 0 #26 October 4, 2005 Quote...and you probably think the Nova is an acceptable canopy too. The point is that there are faaaar better options than an old out-of-production canopy that has a well-documented history of beating its owners repeatedly until they quit, sell it, or get injured. How many threads have there been on that stupid canopy? Do a search for "Sabre hard opening" and you will get 21 pages of carnage including lovely highlights such as a broken neck, torn aorta, broken femur, crushed vertebrae, the list goes on and on. But of course, it must be the pack job or my favorite, body position... it can't possibly be the canopy... Get a decent canopy and you won't stress over the pack job or have to waste time rolling the nose or whatever other packing tip-of-the-moment someone posts this week. Yah yah. We've all seen the several threads where one person complains, and then several others, who haven't jumped the canopy , hop on the bandwagon, because they don't know any better. You don't think that packing, body position, or other deployment conditions effect canopy openings? Get real. The fact of the matter is, the sabre is a great flying canopy. It requires a little more attention during packing. Once you learn this, it can be a great opening canopy. QuoteGet a decent canopy and you won't stress over the pack job or have to waste time rolling the nose or whatever other packing tip-of-the-moment someone posts this week. Any canopy can whack you if your packjob is weak or incorrect. Really learn to control your packjob, and you won't have to rely on the "Latest and Greatest" canopy to save you from your packing misgivings. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #27 October 4, 2005 QuoteYah yah. We've all seen the several threads where one person complains, and then several others, who haven't jumped the canopy Crazy, hop on the bandwagon, because they don't know any better. Several??? You live in fantasy land dude if think that canopy is a good choice given the options out there currently. A para-commander won't kill you either, but if they are so great, why don't you see them in the air more than once in a while? It's called progress. Packing and body position sure do affect openings but if I drop a shoulder a little or go head low on deployment slightly I want to know my canopy WON'T MAIM ME! I have more than 400 packjobs on dozens of canopies, I can pack my Safire in 8 minutes, and I guarantee that it won't send me to the hospital as a result of the slider creeping a millimeter down the lines. Tell you what, you spend 20 minutes trying to make the "perfect" packjob and I'll be manifested and on the plane while you are flaking, rolling, pulling this, pushing that... etc. QuoteIt requires a little more attention during packing. Once you learn this, and you manage to survive without injury, it can be a great opening canopy. I fixed it for you... and tell us how many canopies have you jumped for comparison to dub the Sabre a "great opening canopy"? NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JumpRu 14 #28 October 4, 2005 The fact of the matter is, the sabre is a great flying canopy. It requires a little more attention during packing. Once you learn this, it can be a great opening canopy. ************************ is that why you have Specter 150 in your profile? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,471 #29 October 4, 2005 >Take the time to figure yours out and learn to control the pack, and > it will become a great canopy. Not always true. We had a Sabre 1 150 and it would just plain slam you sometimes, whether it was packed by me, a rigger, or a professional packer. It took a pocket slider to slow it down. This is not suprising - it was designed to open fast, because that's what PD thought people wanted when they designed it. Some canopies simply tend to open hard, and all the tricks in the world will not prevent the occasional slammer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites n23x 0 #30 October 4, 2005 Irregardless, I don't think that it makes it "gutter gear". If the pocket slider is what it took to slow down the canopy, is it still a bad canopy? Should the posting jumper get rid of it, because it is "untameable"? I am not arguing the fact that sabres can whack you opening. Careful packing solved a majority of my problems. That has been my experience. If it takes a pocket slider to fix other canopies, then so be it. I am arguing the fact that it is a "trash" canopy, and that so many people jump on the trash-sabres bandwagon. I am disagreeing with the attitude that Matt seems to have that "sabres are killer canopies". Matt, your argument regarding pack time has very little bearing on whether or not the canopy is "trash" or not, I'm not sure why you bring it up. Regarding the other poster mentioning my canopy change. Yes, I had a spectre. It was a great canopy. I also got whacked by it once. But its purchase was not controlled by openings as you seem to think it is. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #31 October 4, 2005 QuoteI am disagreeing with the attitude that Matt seems to have that "sabres are killer canopies". Do a search... you are the poster-child for denial. Anyone who recommends or endorses this canopy for a new jumper is doing them a disservice given the options available currently. There are first hand accounts posted here of people who have been injured by your "great opening canopy" that you must "carefully pack" to solve "a majority of the opening problems", but not all obviously. So, by your own admission the canopy still slammed you occasionally, you got rid of it, bought a Spectre (a canopy with better openings), don't jump anymore, and you still think it's a good canopy. Brilliant! I'm still waiting to hear what your basis of comparison is, Mile-Hi's fleet of rental gear?NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #32 October 4, 2005 Disclaimer: I'm a "100 jump wonder", so what do I know. I think this thread needs some context. I think matt is unduly paranoid, but at the same time makes great points. The Sabre revolutionized the sport parachuting industry so to speak when it came out. It is a fine canopy that flies great, but as any canopy, it isn't perfect. PD redesigned it for a reason, and as of 2001, you can no longer buy a first generation Sabre new (well, I think someone said that PD keeps the pattern if you really wanted one, but that's another topic). People buy canopies for the following reasons among others: familiarity, $$$, availability, recommendations, canopy type and others. Since the Sabre was so popular for so long, there are still plenty out there that are air worthy and available in the used market. So, depending on an individual's situation, it isn't unreasonable to jump a Sabre. Granted, there are better choices out there, but because of the previously mentioned reasons, it might be appropriate for an individual. It was probably the best choice for me at the time, but in hindsight I may have chosen something differently (but see the reasons I mentioned). To make some blanket statement like mattjw916 is making, is well, just naive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites thepollster 0 #33 October 4, 2005 QuoteI have more than 400 packjobs on dozens of canopies, I can pack my Safire in 8 minutes, and I guarantee that it won't send me to the hospital as a result of the slider creeping a millimeter down the lines. I wish I knew it all. I don't. what I do know is I have more Sabre jumps than you have total jumps, and I do know the worst opening I've ever had was on a Safire2. I also know I can pack a Sabre in 5 minutes, and have absolutely no more fear than if I was jumping any different canopy. I also know that there are only 2 ways to break a femur on an opening, as long as there are no other people or objects involved. One way is to have the leg-straps poorly positioned, and the fix would be a better fitting rig and/or a butt bungie. The other way is to deploy unstable, and hit something (think:arm) against a femur. And if you think hard openings are killers, why is the BASE community not dying (from openings)? Can you even name 1 person who died on a Sabre opening? If it is the one I think you are going to reference, she had a heart defect which led to the torn aorta. Not to mention, it was a Stilleto. Prove me wrong and come up with a name, or at least an incident report. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #34 October 4, 2005 The para-commander also revolutionized sport parachuting... but its time has come and gone. How does making a logical conclusion based on a large amount of data and past performance equate naivety? In addition, all the requirements you listed can be fulfilled by a canopy other than a Sabre. Familiarity: New jumpers aren't familiar with anything enough for this to be a sufficient reason. Cost: Plenty of other used canopies out there for cheap if you are patient and don't impulse buy. Availability: You got me there, plenty of Sabres for sale, but there are plenty of Sabre2s and Spectres on the market at all times too. Recommendations: I have heard some seriously retarded recommendations by "experienced" jumpers. My advice, always get as many opinions as possible. Canopy type: It's a square ZP 9-cell, nothing special there. Like I said earlier, I know people that jump them without problems. But it's all about risk vs. return. Like we say amongst motorcyclists, if you have a $50 head, buy a $50 helmet. If your main is only worth $400-$500 dollars to you, by all means, pick up that 12 year old "bargain" canopy and roll the dice.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #35 October 4, 2005 QuoteI wish I knew it all. I don't. what I do know is I have more Sabre jumps than you have total jumps, and I do know the worst opening I've ever had was on a Safire2. I also know I can pack a Sabre in 5 minutes, and have absolutely no more fear than if I was jumping any different canopy. Who said anything about knowing it all anyway? I certainly didn't and don't purport to. I'm glad your Sabre worked out for you. My hardest opening ever is tied between a Navigator 260 and a Stiletto 150 both stable, uneventful deployments otherwise. While I am not trying to get into a pissing match I will address you points and then depart this thread as I have made my point repeatedly now. QuoteI also know that there are only 2 ways to break a femur on an opening, as long as there are no other people or objects involved. One way is to have the leg-straps poorly positioned, and the fix would be a better fitting rig and/or a butt bungie. The other way is to deploy unstable, and hit something (think:arm) against a femur. So by your own discription above, those two conditions, plus a canopy that will inexplicably (even by billvon's account) open hard equates a recipe for injury. QuoteAnd if you think hard openings are killers, why is the BASE community not dying (from openings)? I know little of BASE gear but those canopies are typically F111, loaded MUCH lighter than skydiving canopies, low aspect ratio, and dacron lines. Apples and oranges IMHO. QuoteCan you even name 1 person who died on a Sabre opening? 12/27/2004 Titusville, FL "One report speculates that the jumper suffered a hard opening on a Sabre rendering him unconcious. A brake also released causing the canopy to spiral to the ground." This is not the torn aorta one AFAIK and I can't find every back issue of Parachutist I own to verify which is which or refute your statement. My point again so it is clear in this noise: Given the wealth of canopies currently available and the well-documented reputation of Sabre 1s, there are better and safer canopies out there. Have a nice day, thank you for flying with dramazone.com...NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites thepollster 0 #36 October 4, 2005 Quote My hardest opening ever is tied between a Navigator 260 and a Stiletto 150 both stable, uneventful deployments otherwise....snip... So by your own discription above, those two conditions, plus a canopy that will inexplicably (even by billvon's account) open hard equates a recipe for injury.Quote By your accounts, both the Stilleto and Navigator inexplicably opened hard, and the Navigator is generally flown by people who deploy less than stable, in ill-fitting rental rigs. So should I draw the conclusion that is a recipe for injury? Any canopy can and will open hard. QuoteCan you even name 1 person who died on a Sabre opening? 12/27/2004 Titusville, FL "One report speculates that the jumper suffered a hard opening on a Sabre rendering him unconcious. A brake also released causing the canopy to spiral to the ground."Quote "One report speculates" is different from a definative cause. Most lineovers have the jumper reorting a hard opening. Should we conclude hard openings cause lineovers? If one brake wasn't set correctly, the same thing can and will happen. This is not the torn aorta one AFAIK and I can't find every back issue of Parachutist I own to verify which is which or refute your statement.*** It was reported on this website as a hard Sabre opening causing death, and it was not correct. First, she was on a Stilleto, and second, after an autopsy, it was found she had a heart defect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #37 October 4, 2005 Cost: Someone is only able/willing to spend $xxx on a new (new to them or used) rig. Options are limited. Recommendations: Their local skydiving community is small and distant and they trust where they jump. The instructors are experienced and qualified and their advice is trustworthy. Availability: They have certain items in stock. It is harder to trust equipment from a distance and w/o looking at it. Canopy Type: Preference for a 9 vs a 7 Cell. Manufactuer: ABC Co. has a good reputation. Bottom line, the Sabre wouldn't have endured so long if it was such a risky item. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #38 October 4, 2005 Given the amount of PD fanboys it doesn't surprise me at all actually.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #39 October 5, 2005 AFAIK, PD is the market (share) leader, and have been for sometime. It is not unreasonable why PD fans have the opinions that they have. You haven't proved your case yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #40 October 5, 2005 Whether pollster chooses to believe it or not, that person had a hard opening, was knocked unconscious, opening resulted in a brake fire, and spun in. Sabre was the canopy. People have been reporting problems with this canopy for years. Don't wanna believe me, read this http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=911753;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote I got lots of new material for my collection of Sabre quotes. Seeing as the packing, design,pocket slider, stochastic variable thing has been beaten to death,If you insist on an arguement. Please save it for the other thread.http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread Enjoy. Sabres do bang open on occasions - one damaged my neck and I was wearing a normal helmet’ “I saw video of a sabre opening that resembled a bomb going off:” “ The hard openings got so bad that I began to have a phobia about deploying.” “I got a enormous spanking on a jump in Skydive Arizona a couple of years back. Was in such agony i had to spiral down to get the weight on my feet and *off* the inside of my thighs. Bruising was quite bad” “Upon deployment I got absolutely SPANKED!!! Sore back, risers grazed my face and gave me a gash over my eye, threw my goggles around so I couldn't even identify my canopy's condition...I mean SPANKED” “I bought a brand new Sabre 135 in Jan 2000, and it often opened hard, and really beat the shit out of my neck on one jump” “Sabres have been known to slam their fair share of jumpers, “ “I had a Sabre and experienced a lot of hard openings” “I would say I have had half a dozen hard openings, but when it slams, it slams” “my first canopy was a saber 150 and it slammed me all the time! “ “ “When I had it relined, that's when it really started to pound me.” “I have seen a Sabre open in about 50 feet. I was videoing the student and he didn't have line dump. It was a brutal opening.” “I had a Sabre 190 which gave me a mild concussion on opening once” “So far, the only actual account we have as to what "might" have occurred at opening time is from the person involved -……….. He is in ICU and in a few days we'll talk with him again to see if he can recall anything else.” “i fractured my c6 on opening with a sabre135.” “Every 30 or 40th or so opening would either slam me or be a rock and roll ride“ ”although I did get slammed so hard it ripped my helmet right off once! “ “I have 150 jumps on one. The hard openings got so bad that I began to have a phobia about deploying “ “I had a Sabre and experienced a lot of hard openings. Didn't seem to matter how I packed it.” “on the 170 its smack smack smack.” “I have a Y2K Sabre150 with 200 jumps. The darn thing started spanking me BAD!” “The Sabre was notorious for hard openings. I spent a couple of days on a couch with ice on my neck.” “I've got about 50 jumps on Sabres, whacked four or five times out of that. No, I never could pack it not to whack,” “ have a sabre 150 and have something like 150 jumps on it and I've only had two or three extremely hard openings.” Sabres have a reputation for opening hard on occasions, and in my experience (250 jumps on Sabres), this is definitely deserved,” “I don't care HOW you packed them, eventually you were going to get the shit smacked out of you.” “I aquired bruises on my inner thighs and hips from one hard ass slammer Sabre opening....” “had an extremely hard opening... And got knocked unconscious. When I woke up, I couldn't see anymore... “ “it was a massively hard opening. I've seen pics of ripped canopies but nothing like this.” “I heard they will have hard openings... they weren't kidding. I jumped this canopy twice and the second opening rocked me.” “I used to just cringe right before I threw the PC when I had my Sabre. You just knew it was coming and there was nothing you could do.” “I packed his Sabre 170 ,to make a long story short he left in a van with lots of pretty lites on it “ “Yeah Sabres will do that. I had a hard opening on mine. 170, 1.45:1, opened so hard it broke the skin on my legs and left an outline of my legstraps.” “I would still get an occasional spanker even with a pocket slider,” “I have a Sabre 170 loaded at 1:1, and about 5 weeks ago I too had an opening that was so hard it left me groggy for a few moments. After about 230 uneventful jumps on that canopy, I had 2 brutal openings in 2 months” “I had a VERY hard opening about 5 weeks ago. Didn't fully lose consciousness, but was unresponsive for some unknown amount of time. No serious injuries--very painful stress fracture of the sternum kept me on Vicoden for 3 weeks.” “You may get slammed on occasion” “The Sabre 1 is known for slamming people” “Yes, sabres open hard from time to time.” “yes sabres's are know to whack ya every once in a while” “Yeah they open hard unexpectedly sometimes,” “Sabres will occasionally open hard,” “By reputation, some sabres open harder than others. “ “I got really hard openings every jump. “ “I got my teeth rattled a few times.” “My back -- like 4 years later -- is still sore from a sabre opening” “I don't like Sabress. All my experiences with Sabres's have been unpleasant. I primarily mean the openings,” “I have experienced the Sabre Spank' on a 150, and have the X-rays to prove it..” “I have a Sabre 190, and most of my opennigs just beat the crap out of me!!!” “I jump a sabre-1 and it's given me bruises a couple times,” “I have video of a sabre opening in about 75 feet, extremely hard “ “Openings were problematic at first,” “A lot of people complain of hard openings,” “Lots of u guys out there r trying to blame your hard Sabre openings on the pack job...” “I have approximately 1,100 total jumps on sabre 150's and sabre 135's and have experienced a handful of rather brisk openings and 2 of them were excruciating and kept me from jumping for the rest of the day.” “Openings are not so great. In my opinion it would be one thing if it opened hard all the time or soft all the time but it does not. Some openings are good others are not” “Pack carefully, handle the wraped up slider as you would an atomic bomb - as thats what it is! Let the thing slip everywhere then shove in the bag; You will be sorry..” “but about 75% of the time, I get these opening that make me flinch and tighten up every muscle in my body in fear of the opening. Most Sunday nights, when I am driving home, my neck hurts like I was in a car accident, and I have bruises on the insides of my legs that just shouldn't be there... I have tried everything- rolling the nose 4-4, tight rolling the nose together, tight rolling the tail, stowing my lines tight, etc... Nothing helps, don't know what to say about the opening, but I can't wait until I get my PISA Hornet...” “Openings have been brisk, but I've never been slammed (although I lent my rig to a friend and she said she was).” “I've had a very bad opening about every two or three. No matter what I did, tens of rolls everywere or no rolls, spend 1 hour and a half packing it,use the tighest rubber bands ever, it used to hit me.” “I had an instant canopy that knocked the wind from my body. I was in such pain that all I wanted to do was land. After landing discovered the leg straps had grazed the skin from my inner thighs. The next day I was barely able to stand and the black bruising around my thighs meant I looked like I was still wearing my harness.” “I was wacked so hard that I had a compression fracture of T6 and a cracked T12 along with a neck sprain.” “in my 90 jumps on it, I had 3 soft openings. This thing was killing me. I had it relined by PD as soon as I bought it and no matter who's advice I took or what I did, I was constantly seeing stars. I tried rolling the nose tightly all to one side and going to the back, I tried nothing with the nose, I tried splitting the nose, I rolled the tail unbelievably tight and still the openings stunk. After an opening where the slider came down fast enough to rip the rubber stops and put a rip in the slider and wrap itself around my face, so all I saw was the orange slider (nice backdrop for the stars), I got rid of it and bought a spectre 150, and will never look back.” ”Most of the openings on Sabres are ok, but it's those slammers! One in every 70 or so jumps, no matter how carefully you've packed, even if you've packed exactly the same as the last 70 pack jobs they can bite. I had one opening on my Sabre 135 that was so hard I thought I had broken a rib! I could give you plenty of examples of experiences friends of mine have had with bad Sabre openings... by and large the openings on the Sabre are fine but when they bite they're nasty!” “Used to fly a Sabre, and the openings where so bad I had no intentions of ever buying another one” “I jumped my 170 Sabre for about 40 times until I realized that my neck could handle about 50 more openings.” “harder than the saber i used to fly and that spanked me on a regular basis.” “This was welcome from the ever surprising Sabre slam that comes when you least expect it. “ “It just comes out of no where. Don't do anything different packing,and all the sudden your looking for the train....” “the sabre has a reputation for hard openings” “Any canopy that requires a modification to the slider to tame the openings has more than packing issues” ”i wouldn't wish one on my worst enemy....ok, maybe on my worst enemy, but nobody else...” “it is the lightly loaded sabre's that tend to be more violent openings. “ “I have been whacked a few times on the 150 and 107” “I've had a few harder openings,” “I had one that tried to kill me. Saw a Racer completely ripped apart by one.Met a girl from Virginia that has scars on her head from the halo head thingy after breaking her neck.All on 170s.” "Sabre 1 - reputation for hard openings - not all examples - can easily be tamed “ “My personal opinion is that the Sabre sucks. I can count the number of times I've been whacked under canopy on one hand and I think 4 out of the 5 whackers were under a Sabre.” ”I experienced the hard openings, still 'enjoying' one I had more than a month ago” “I'm getting a bit scared to pull: my poor back.” “best way to make a sabre open softer... Sell it.” “My Sabre 150 used to whack me every once in a while (bruised rib)” “Mine didn't slam me too badly until I had it relined” “I have had one extremely hard opening that about broke me in half,” NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #41 October 5, 2005 WAIT!!! Don't stop reading yet!!! here's more: These aren't 100 jump wonders posting, these are people with THOUSANDS of jumps... Quote So.....there seems to be a common name in these hard opening comments :Sabre. As someone who is still going to the chiropractor from a Sabre (which I will never jump again) opening a month ago, it seems to me that maybe PD needs to start selling the sabres with the modified slider? edit: oops, here's another Sabre incident for you though: Quote I have disagree as I broke my back on a hard opening. I was jumping a Sabre 150 and after a 1 second opening I sent the canopy back. PD made some test jumps on the canopy and they got smacked on it as well. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Witelli 0 #42 October 5, 2005 We've all heard of the hard openings of the Sabre, why even chance it? I'll be looking into gear next year and that won't even be an option. I don't know crap, but if I've heard something as much as I've heard about the hard openings of the Sabre, I surely don't want to have anything to do with it. Why is there even an arguement? You can't say this canopy doesn't have the highest smack rate? At least from what we've heard in these forums. Plus, it's no longer in production. So who cares. Just don't buy one. Or, buy one if you don't cringe easilly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #43 October 5, 2005 Thank you for sharing. I'm still not impressed. It wasn't in production for 12 years for nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fireflyer 0 #44 October 5, 2005 wow, some people have a lot of free time to bitch. i'd write more, but i'm alotting more time away from the computer as i have a sabre and need more time to pack . i love the battle too, but i think 10000>240 (PS: i know 240>my 79 too ) can't we just all get whacked together? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #45 October 5, 2005 QuoteThe Spectre in particular has _very_ slow openings. Don't tell that to Anne. A sunpath packer packed a spectre up for her when she was demoing a javelin. it opened so hard it broked about 6-7 lines off the front of the canopy. She just felt a BIG OWE!! It just goes to show that ANY canopy can open hard. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #46 October 5, 2005 QuoteGiven the amount of PD fanboys it doesn't surprise me at all actually. Says the man with a PDR 176 in his rig...and, I believe, a Stilleto main, based on past posts... ANY parachute can slam you...some have more of a record of it than others. There are also measures that can be taken to control it, and in some cases, eliminate it. That does not mean the parachute in question is 'bad' or 'trash', IMO.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #47 October 5, 2005 QuoteThank you for sharing. I'm still not impressed. It wasn't in production for 12 years for nothing. The Glidepath Nova was in production for a number of years, too, as was the Ford Pinto. What's your point?Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #48 October 5, 2005 QuoteWhat's your point? I think the point is that people are hard headed. With some of the attitudes displayed here, it is no wonder juries can't convict people like OJ and Robert Blake. Yes, I have a PD Reserve, it IS a good canopy, but the Sabre is not. I have jumped a Stiletto, but I wouldn't buy one. I'd jump it just for fun though.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #49 October 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteThank you for sharing. I'm still not impressed. It wasn't in production for 12 years for nothing. The Glidepath Nova was in production for a number of years, too, as was the Ford Pinto. What's your point? My point is that it has an established reputation amongst experienced skydivers as a good canopy. I will continue to believe the stories by those experienced skydivers that have put thousands of jumps on Sabre1's over a 240 jump, 1 year overly paranoid skydiver. Furthermore, since the canopy in question has been out of production for 4 years now, it will become less and less of an issue as the remaining canopies are "used up". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,471 #50 October 5, 2005 > I will continue to believe the stories by those experienced skydivers >that have put thousands of jumps on Sabre1's . . . Between Amy and I we put about 2200 jumps on a Sabre 1 150 before it blew up. It took some extraordinary measures to slow it down (bigger slider, slider pocket, longer brake lines) but we eventually slowed it down to the point that it was reasonable. The stock (unmodified) canopy was pretty brutal when it came to openings. 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billvon 2,471 #29 October 4, 2005 >Take the time to figure yours out and learn to control the pack, and > it will become a great canopy. Not always true. We had a Sabre 1 150 and it would just plain slam you sometimes, whether it was packed by me, a rigger, or a professional packer. It took a pocket slider to slow it down. This is not suprising - it was designed to open fast, because that's what PD thought people wanted when they designed it. Some canopies simply tend to open hard, and all the tricks in the world will not prevent the occasional slammer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #30 October 4, 2005 Irregardless, I don't think that it makes it "gutter gear". If the pocket slider is what it took to slow down the canopy, is it still a bad canopy? Should the posting jumper get rid of it, because it is "untameable"? I am not arguing the fact that sabres can whack you opening. Careful packing solved a majority of my problems. That has been my experience. If it takes a pocket slider to fix other canopies, then so be it. I am arguing the fact that it is a "trash" canopy, and that so many people jump on the trash-sabres bandwagon. I am disagreeing with the attitude that Matt seems to have that "sabres are killer canopies". Matt, your argument regarding pack time has very little bearing on whether or not the canopy is "trash" or not, I'm not sure why you bring it up. Regarding the other poster mentioning my canopy change. Yes, I had a spectre. It was a great canopy. I also got whacked by it once. But its purchase was not controlled by openings as you seem to think it is. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #31 October 4, 2005 QuoteI am disagreeing with the attitude that Matt seems to have that "sabres are killer canopies". Do a search... you are the poster-child for denial. Anyone who recommends or endorses this canopy for a new jumper is doing them a disservice given the options available currently. There are first hand accounts posted here of people who have been injured by your "great opening canopy" that you must "carefully pack" to solve "a majority of the opening problems", but not all obviously. So, by your own admission the canopy still slammed you occasionally, you got rid of it, bought a Spectre (a canopy with better openings), don't jump anymore, and you still think it's a good canopy. Brilliant! I'm still waiting to hear what your basis of comparison is, Mile-Hi's fleet of rental gear?NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #32 October 4, 2005 Disclaimer: I'm a "100 jump wonder", so what do I know. I think this thread needs some context. I think matt is unduly paranoid, but at the same time makes great points. The Sabre revolutionized the sport parachuting industry so to speak when it came out. It is a fine canopy that flies great, but as any canopy, it isn't perfect. PD redesigned it for a reason, and as of 2001, you can no longer buy a first generation Sabre new (well, I think someone said that PD keeps the pattern if you really wanted one, but that's another topic). People buy canopies for the following reasons among others: familiarity, $$$, availability, recommendations, canopy type and others. Since the Sabre was so popular for so long, there are still plenty out there that are air worthy and available in the used market. So, depending on an individual's situation, it isn't unreasonable to jump a Sabre. Granted, there are better choices out there, but because of the previously mentioned reasons, it might be appropriate for an individual. It was probably the best choice for me at the time, but in hindsight I may have chosen something differently (but see the reasons I mentioned). To make some blanket statement like mattjw916 is making, is well, just naive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thepollster 0 #33 October 4, 2005 QuoteI have more than 400 packjobs on dozens of canopies, I can pack my Safire in 8 minutes, and I guarantee that it won't send me to the hospital as a result of the slider creeping a millimeter down the lines. I wish I knew it all. I don't. what I do know is I have more Sabre jumps than you have total jumps, and I do know the worst opening I've ever had was on a Safire2. I also know I can pack a Sabre in 5 minutes, and have absolutely no more fear than if I was jumping any different canopy. I also know that there are only 2 ways to break a femur on an opening, as long as there are no other people or objects involved. One way is to have the leg-straps poorly positioned, and the fix would be a better fitting rig and/or a butt bungie. The other way is to deploy unstable, and hit something (think:arm) against a femur. And if you think hard openings are killers, why is the BASE community not dying (from openings)? Can you even name 1 person who died on a Sabre opening? If it is the one I think you are going to reference, she had a heart defect which led to the torn aorta. Not to mention, it was a Stilleto. Prove me wrong and come up with a name, or at least an incident report. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #34 October 4, 2005 The para-commander also revolutionized sport parachuting... but its time has come and gone. How does making a logical conclusion based on a large amount of data and past performance equate naivety? In addition, all the requirements you listed can be fulfilled by a canopy other than a Sabre. Familiarity: New jumpers aren't familiar with anything enough for this to be a sufficient reason. Cost: Plenty of other used canopies out there for cheap if you are patient and don't impulse buy. Availability: You got me there, plenty of Sabres for sale, but there are plenty of Sabre2s and Spectres on the market at all times too. Recommendations: I have heard some seriously retarded recommendations by "experienced" jumpers. My advice, always get as many opinions as possible. Canopy type: It's a square ZP 9-cell, nothing special there. Like I said earlier, I know people that jump them without problems. But it's all about risk vs. return. Like we say amongst motorcyclists, if you have a $50 head, buy a $50 helmet. If your main is only worth $400-$500 dollars to you, by all means, pick up that 12 year old "bargain" canopy and roll the dice.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #35 October 4, 2005 QuoteI wish I knew it all. I don't. what I do know is I have more Sabre jumps than you have total jumps, and I do know the worst opening I've ever had was on a Safire2. I also know I can pack a Sabre in 5 minutes, and have absolutely no more fear than if I was jumping any different canopy. Who said anything about knowing it all anyway? I certainly didn't and don't purport to. I'm glad your Sabre worked out for you. My hardest opening ever is tied between a Navigator 260 and a Stiletto 150 both stable, uneventful deployments otherwise. While I am not trying to get into a pissing match I will address you points and then depart this thread as I have made my point repeatedly now. QuoteI also know that there are only 2 ways to break a femur on an opening, as long as there are no other people or objects involved. One way is to have the leg-straps poorly positioned, and the fix would be a better fitting rig and/or a butt bungie. The other way is to deploy unstable, and hit something (think:arm) against a femur. So by your own discription above, those two conditions, plus a canopy that will inexplicably (even by billvon's account) open hard equates a recipe for injury. QuoteAnd if you think hard openings are killers, why is the BASE community not dying (from openings)? I know little of BASE gear but those canopies are typically F111, loaded MUCH lighter than skydiving canopies, low aspect ratio, and dacron lines. Apples and oranges IMHO. QuoteCan you even name 1 person who died on a Sabre opening? 12/27/2004 Titusville, FL "One report speculates that the jumper suffered a hard opening on a Sabre rendering him unconcious. A brake also released causing the canopy to spiral to the ground." This is not the torn aorta one AFAIK and I can't find every back issue of Parachutist I own to verify which is which or refute your statement. My point again so it is clear in this noise: Given the wealth of canopies currently available and the well-documented reputation of Sabre 1s, there are better and safer canopies out there. Have a nice day, thank you for flying with dramazone.com...NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thepollster 0 #36 October 4, 2005 Quote My hardest opening ever is tied between a Navigator 260 and a Stiletto 150 both stable, uneventful deployments otherwise....snip... So by your own discription above, those two conditions, plus a canopy that will inexplicably (even by billvon's account) open hard equates a recipe for injury.Quote By your accounts, both the Stilleto and Navigator inexplicably opened hard, and the Navigator is generally flown by people who deploy less than stable, in ill-fitting rental rigs. So should I draw the conclusion that is a recipe for injury? Any canopy can and will open hard. QuoteCan you even name 1 person who died on a Sabre opening? 12/27/2004 Titusville, FL "One report speculates that the jumper suffered a hard opening on a Sabre rendering him unconcious. A brake also released causing the canopy to spiral to the ground."Quote "One report speculates" is different from a definative cause. Most lineovers have the jumper reorting a hard opening. Should we conclude hard openings cause lineovers? If one brake wasn't set correctly, the same thing can and will happen. This is not the torn aorta one AFAIK and I can't find every back issue of Parachutist I own to verify which is which or refute your statement.*** It was reported on this website as a hard Sabre opening causing death, and it was not correct. First, she was on a Stilleto, and second, after an autopsy, it was found she had a heart defect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #37 October 4, 2005 Cost: Someone is only able/willing to spend $xxx on a new (new to them or used) rig. Options are limited. Recommendations: Their local skydiving community is small and distant and they trust where they jump. The instructors are experienced and qualified and their advice is trustworthy. Availability: They have certain items in stock. It is harder to trust equipment from a distance and w/o looking at it. Canopy Type: Preference for a 9 vs a 7 Cell. Manufactuer: ABC Co. has a good reputation. Bottom line, the Sabre wouldn't have endured so long if it was such a risky item. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #38 October 4, 2005 Given the amount of PD fanboys it doesn't surprise me at all actually.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #39 October 5, 2005 AFAIK, PD is the market (share) leader, and have been for sometime. It is not unreasonable why PD fans have the opinions that they have. You haven't proved your case yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #40 October 5, 2005 Whether pollster chooses to believe it or not, that person had a hard opening, was knocked unconscious, opening resulted in a brake fire, and spun in. Sabre was the canopy. People have been reporting problems with this canopy for years. Don't wanna believe me, read this http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=911753;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote I got lots of new material for my collection of Sabre quotes. Seeing as the packing, design,pocket slider, stochastic variable thing has been beaten to death,If you insist on an arguement. Please save it for the other thread.http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread Enjoy. Sabres do bang open on occasions - one damaged my neck and I was wearing a normal helmet’ “I saw video of a sabre opening that resembled a bomb going off:” “ The hard openings got so bad that I began to have a phobia about deploying.” “I got a enormous spanking on a jump in Skydive Arizona a couple of years back. Was in such agony i had to spiral down to get the weight on my feet and *off* the inside of my thighs. Bruising was quite bad” “Upon deployment I got absolutely SPANKED!!! Sore back, risers grazed my face and gave me a gash over my eye, threw my goggles around so I couldn't even identify my canopy's condition...I mean SPANKED” “I bought a brand new Sabre 135 in Jan 2000, and it often opened hard, and really beat the shit out of my neck on one jump” “Sabres have been known to slam their fair share of jumpers, “ “I had a Sabre and experienced a lot of hard openings” “I would say I have had half a dozen hard openings, but when it slams, it slams” “my first canopy was a saber 150 and it slammed me all the time! “ “ “When I had it relined, that's when it really started to pound me.” “I have seen a Sabre open in about 50 feet. I was videoing the student and he didn't have line dump. It was a brutal opening.” “I had a Sabre 190 which gave me a mild concussion on opening once” “So far, the only actual account we have as to what "might" have occurred at opening time is from the person involved -……….. He is in ICU and in a few days we'll talk with him again to see if he can recall anything else.” “i fractured my c6 on opening with a sabre135.” “Every 30 or 40th or so opening would either slam me or be a rock and roll ride“ ”although I did get slammed so hard it ripped my helmet right off once! “ “I have 150 jumps on one. The hard openings got so bad that I began to have a phobia about deploying “ “I had a Sabre and experienced a lot of hard openings. Didn't seem to matter how I packed it.” “on the 170 its smack smack smack.” “I have a Y2K Sabre150 with 200 jumps. The darn thing started spanking me BAD!” “The Sabre was notorious for hard openings. I spent a couple of days on a couch with ice on my neck.” “I've got about 50 jumps on Sabres, whacked four or five times out of that. No, I never could pack it not to whack,” “ have a sabre 150 and have something like 150 jumps on it and I've only had two or three extremely hard openings.” Sabres have a reputation for opening hard on occasions, and in my experience (250 jumps on Sabres), this is definitely deserved,” “I don't care HOW you packed them, eventually you were going to get the shit smacked out of you.” “I aquired bruises on my inner thighs and hips from one hard ass slammer Sabre opening....” “had an extremely hard opening... And got knocked unconscious. When I woke up, I couldn't see anymore... “ “it was a massively hard opening. I've seen pics of ripped canopies but nothing like this.” “I heard they will have hard openings... they weren't kidding. I jumped this canopy twice and the second opening rocked me.” “I used to just cringe right before I threw the PC when I had my Sabre. You just knew it was coming and there was nothing you could do.” “I packed his Sabre 170 ,to make a long story short he left in a van with lots of pretty lites on it “ “Yeah Sabres will do that. I had a hard opening on mine. 170, 1.45:1, opened so hard it broke the skin on my legs and left an outline of my legstraps.” “I would still get an occasional spanker even with a pocket slider,” “I have a Sabre 170 loaded at 1:1, and about 5 weeks ago I too had an opening that was so hard it left me groggy for a few moments. After about 230 uneventful jumps on that canopy, I had 2 brutal openings in 2 months” “I had a VERY hard opening about 5 weeks ago. Didn't fully lose consciousness, but was unresponsive for some unknown amount of time. No serious injuries--very painful stress fracture of the sternum kept me on Vicoden for 3 weeks.” “You may get slammed on occasion” “The Sabre 1 is known for slamming people” “Yes, sabres open hard from time to time.” “yes sabres's are know to whack ya every once in a while” “Yeah they open hard unexpectedly sometimes,” “Sabres will occasionally open hard,” “By reputation, some sabres open harder than others. “ “I got really hard openings every jump. “ “I got my teeth rattled a few times.” “My back -- like 4 years later -- is still sore from a sabre opening” “I don't like Sabress. All my experiences with Sabres's have been unpleasant. I primarily mean the openings,” “I have experienced the Sabre Spank' on a 150, and have the X-rays to prove it..” “I have a Sabre 190, and most of my opennigs just beat the crap out of me!!!” “I jump a sabre-1 and it's given me bruises a couple times,” “I have video of a sabre opening in about 75 feet, extremely hard “ “Openings were problematic at first,” “A lot of people complain of hard openings,” “Lots of u guys out there r trying to blame your hard Sabre openings on the pack job...” “I have approximately 1,100 total jumps on sabre 150's and sabre 135's and have experienced a handful of rather brisk openings and 2 of them were excruciating and kept me from jumping for the rest of the day.” “Openings are not so great. In my opinion it would be one thing if it opened hard all the time or soft all the time but it does not. Some openings are good others are not” “Pack carefully, handle the wraped up slider as you would an atomic bomb - as thats what it is! Let the thing slip everywhere then shove in the bag; You will be sorry..” “but about 75% of the time, I get these opening that make me flinch and tighten up every muscle in my body in fear of the opening. Most Sunday nights, when I am driving home, my neck hurts like I was in a car accident, and I have bruises on the insides of my legs that just shouldn't be there... I have tried everything- rolling the nose 4-4, tight rolling the nose together, tight rolling the tail, stowing my lines tight, etc... Nothing helps, don't know what to say about the opening, but I can't wait until I get my PISA Hornet...” “Openings have been brisk, but I've never been slammed (although I lent my rig to a friend and she said she was).” “I've had a very bad opening about every two or three. No matter what I did, tens of rolls everywere or no rolls, spend 1 hour and a half packing it,use the tighest rubber bands ever, it used to hit me.” “I had an instant canopy that knocked the wind from my body. I was in such pain that all I wanted to do was land. After landing discovered the leg straps had grazed the skin from my inner thighs. The next day I was barely able to stand and the black bruising around my thighs meant I looked like I was still wearing my harness.” “I was wacked so hard that I had a compression fracture of T6 and a cracked T12 along with a neck sprain.” “in my 90 jumps on it, I had 3 soft openings. This thing was killing me. I had it relined by PD as soon as I bought it and no matter who's advice I took or what I did, I was constantly seeing stars. I tried rolling the nose tightly all to one side and going to the back, I tried nothing with the nose, I tried splitting the nose, I rolled the tail unbelievably tight and still the openings stunk. After an opening where the slider came down fast enough to rip the rubber stops and put a rip in the slider and wrap itself around my face, so all I saw was the orange slider (nice backdrop for the stars), I got rid of it and bought a spectre 150, and will never look back.” ”Most of the openings on Sabres are ok, but it's those slammers! One in every 70 or so jumps, no matter how carefully you've packed, even if you've packed exactly the same as the last 70 pack jobs they can bite. I had one opening on my Sabre 135 that was so hard I thought I had broken a rib! I could give you plenty of examples of experiences friends of mine have had with bad Sabre openings... by and large the openings on the Sabre are fine but when they bite they're nasty!” “Used to fly a Sabre, and the openings where so bad I had no intentions of ever buying another one” “I jumped my 170 Sabre for about 40 times until I realized that my neck could handle about 50 more openings.” “harder than the saber i used to fly and that spanked me on a regular basis.” “This was welcome from the ever surprising Sabre slam that comes when you least expect it. “ “It just comes out of no where. Don't do anything different packing,and all the sudden your looking for the train....” “the sabre has a reputation for hard openings” “Any canopy that requires a modification to the slider to tame the openings has more than packing issues” ”i wouldn't wish one on my worst enemy....ok, maybe on my worst enemy, but nobody else...” “it is the lightly loaded sabre's that tend to be more violent openings. “ “I have been whacked a few times on the 150 and 107” “I've had a few harder openings,” “I had one that tried to kill me. Saw a Racer completely ripped apart by one.Met a girl from Virginia that has scars on her head from the halo head thingy after breaking her neck.All on 170s.” "Sabre 1 - reputation for hard openings - not all examples - can easily be tamed “ “My personal opinion is that the Sabre sucks. I can count the number of times I've been whacked under canopy on one hand and I think 4 out of the 5 whackers were under a Sabre.” ”I experienced the hard openings, still 'enjoying' one I had more than a month ago” “I'm getting a bit scared to pull: my poor back.” “best way to make a sabre open softer... Sell it.” “My Sabre 150 used to whack me every once in a while (bruised rib)” “Mine didn't slam me too badly until I had it relined” “I have had one extremely hard opening that about broke me in half,” NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #41 October 5, 2005 WAIT!!! Don't stop reading yet!!! here's more: These aren't 100 jump wonders posting, these are people with THOUSANDS of jumps... Quote So.....there seems to be a common name in these hard opening comments :Sabre. As someone who is still going to the chiropractor from a Sabre (which I will never jump again) opening a month ago, it seems to me that maybe PD needs to start selling the sabres with the modified slider? edit: oops, here's another Sabre incident for you though: Quote I have disagree as I broke my back on a hard opening. I was jumping a Sabre 150 and after a 1 second opening I sent the canopy back. PD made some test jumps on the canopy and they got smacked on it as well. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Witelli 0 #42 October 5, 2005 We've all heard of the hard openings of the Sabre, why even chance it? I'll be looking into gear next year and that won't even be an option. I don't know crap, but if I've heard something as much as I've heard about the hard openings of the Sabre, I surely don't want to have anything to do with it. Why is there even an arguement? You can't say this canopy doesn't have the highest smack rate? At least from what we've heard in these forums. Plus, it's no longer in production. So who cares. Just don't buy one. Or, buy one if you don't cringe easilly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #43 October 5, 2005 Thank you for sharing. I'm still not impressed. It wasn't in production for 12 years for nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fireflyer 0 #44 October 5, 2005 wow, some people have a lot of free time to bitch. i'd write more, but i'm alotting more time away from the computer as i have a sabre and need more time to pack . i love the battle too, but i think 10000>240 (PS: i know 240>my 79 too ) can't we just all get whacked together? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #45 October 5, 2005 QuoteThe Spectre in particular has _very_ slow openings. Don't tell that to Anne. A sunpath packer packed a spectre up for her when she was demoing a javelin. it opened so hard it broked about 6-7 lines off the front of the canopy. She just felt a BIG OWE!! It just goes to show that ANY canopy can open hard. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #46 October 5, 2005 QuoteGiven the amount of PD fanboys it doesn't surprise me at all actually. Says the man with a PDR 176 in his rig...and, I believe, a Stilleto main, based on past posts... ANY parachute can slam you...some have more of a record of it than others. There are also measures that can be taken to control it, and in some cases, eliminate it. That does not mean the parachute in question is 'bad' or 'trash', IMO.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #47 October 5, 2005 QuoteThank you for sharing. I'm still not impressed. It wasn't in production for 12 years for nothing. The Glidepath Nova was in production for a number of years, too, as was the Ford Pinto. What's your point?Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #48 October 5, 2005 QuoteWhat's your point? I think the point is that people are hard headed. With some of the attitudes displayed here, it is no wonder juries can't convict people like OJ and Robert Blake. Yes, I have a PD Reserve, it IS a good canopy, but the Sabre is not. I have jumped a Stiletto, but I wouldn't buy one. I'd jump it just for fun though.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Elisha 1 #49 October 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteThank you for sharing. I'm still not impressed. It wasn't in production for 12 years for nothing. The Glidepath Nova was in production for a number of years, too, as was the Ford Pinto. What's your point? My point is that it has an established reputation amongst experienced skydivers as a good canopy. I will continue to believe the stories by those experienced skydivers that have put thousands of jumps on Sabre1's over a 240 jump, 1 year overly paranoid skydiver. Furthermore, since the canopy in question has been out of production for 4 years now, it will become less and less of an issue as the remaining canopies are "used up". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,471 #50 October 5, 2005 > I will continue to believe the stories by those experienced skydivers >that have put thousands of jumps on Sabre1's . . . Between Amy and I we put about 2200 jumps on a Sabre 1 150 before it blew up. It took some extraordinary measures to slow it down (bigger slider, slider pocket, longer brake lines) but we eventually slowed it down to the point that it was reasonable. The stock (unmodified) canopy was pretty brutal when it came to openings. 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Elisha 1 #37 October 4, 2005 Cost: Someone is only able/willing to spend $xxx on a new (new to them or used) rig. Options are limited. Recommendations: Their local skydiving community is small and distant and they trust where they jump. The instructors are experienced and qualified and their advice is trustworthy. Availability: They have certain items in stock. It is harder to trust equipment from a distance and w/o looking at it. Canopy Type: Preference for a 9 vs a 7 Cell. Manufactuer: ABC Co. has a good reputation. Bottom line, the Sabre wouldn't have endured so long if it was such a risky item. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #38 October 4, 2005 Given the amount of PD fanboys it doesn't surprise me at all actually.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #39 October 5, 2005 AFAIK, PD is the market (share) leader, and have been for sometime. It is not unreasonable why PD fans have the opinions that they have. You haven't proved your case yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #40 October 5, 2005 Whether pollster chooses to believe it or not, that person had a hard opening, was knocked unconscious, opening resulted in a brake fire, and spun in. Sabre was the canopy. People have been reporting problems with this canopy for years. Don't wanna believe me, read this http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=911753;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote I got lots of new material for my collection of Sabre quotes. Seeing as the packing, design,pocket slider, stochastic variable thing has been beaten to death,If you insist on an arguement. Please save it for the other thread.http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread Enjoy. Sabres do bang open on occasions - one damaged my neck and I was wearing a normal helmet’ “I saw video of a sabre opening that resembled a bomb going off:” “ The hard openings got so bad that I began to have a phobia about deploying.” “I got a enormous spanking on a jump in Skydive Arizona a couple of years back. Was in such agony i had to spiral down to get the weight on my feet and *off* the inside of my thighs. Bruising was quite bad” “Upon deployment I got absolutely SPANKED!!! Sore back, risers grazed my face and gave me a gash over my eye, threw my goggles around so I couldn't even identify my canopy's condition...I mean SPANKED” “I bought a brand new Sabre 135 in Jan 2000, and it often opened hard, and really beat the shit out of my neck on one jump” “Sabres have been known to slam their fair share of jumpers, “ “I had a Sabre and experienced a lot of hard openings” “I would say I have had half a dozen hard openings, but when it slams, it slams” “my first canopy was a saber 150 and it slammed me all the time! “ “ “When I had it relined, that's when it really started to pound me.” “I have seen a Sabre open in about 50 feet. I was videoing the student and he didn't have line dump. It was a brutal opening.” “I had a Sabre 190 which gave me a mild concussion on opening once” “So far, the only actual account we have as to what "might" have occurred at opening time is from the person involved -……….. He is in ICU and in a few days we'll talk with him again to see if he can recall anything else.” “i fractured my c6 on opening with a sabre135.” “Every 30 or 40th or so opening would either slam me or be a rock and roll ride“ ”although I did get slammed so hard it ripped my helmet right off once! “ “I have 150 jumps on one. The hard openings got so bad that I began to have a phobia about deploying “ “I had a Sabre and experienced a lot of hard openings. Didn't seem to matter how I packed it.” “on the 170 its smack smack smack.” “I have a Y2K Sabre150 with 200 jumps. The darn thing started spanking me BAD!” “The Sabre was notorious for hard openings. I spent a couple of days on a couch with ice on my neck.” “I've got about 50 jumps on Sabres, whacked four or five times out of that. No, I never could pack it not to whack,” “ have a sabre 150 and have something like 150 jumps on it and I've only had two or three extremely hard openings.” Sabres have a reputation for opening hard on occasions, and in my experience (250 jumps on Sabres), this is definitely deserved,” “I don't care HOW you packed them, eventually you were going to get the shit smacked out of you.” “I aquired bruises on my inner thighs and hips from one hard ass slammer Sabre opening....” “had an extremely hard opening... And got knocked unconscious. When I woke up, I couldn't see anymore... “ “it was a massively hard opening. I've seen pics of ripped canopies but nothing like this.” “I heard they will have hard openings... they weren't kidding. I jumped this canopy twice and the second opening rocked me.” “I used to just cringe right before I threw the PC when I had my Sabre. You just knew it was coming and there was nothing you could do.” “I packed his Sabre 170 ,to make a long story short he left in a van with lots of pretty lites on it “ “Yeah Sabres will do that. I had a hard opening on mine. 170, 1.45:1, opened so hard it broke the skin on my legs and left an outline of my legstraps.” “I would still get an occasional spanker even with a pocket slider,” “I have a Sabre 170 loaded at 1:1, and about 5 weeks ago I too had an opening that was so hard it left me groggy for a few moments. After about 230 uneventful jumps on that canopy, I had 2 brutal openings in 2 months” “I had a VERY hard opening about 5 weeks ago. Didn't fully lose consciousness, but was unresponsive for some unknown amount of time. No serious injuries--very painful stress fracture of the sternum kept me on Vicoden for 3 weeks.” “You may get slammed on occasion” “The Sabre 1 is known for slamming people” “Yes, sabres open hard from time to time.” “yes sabres's are know to whack ya every once in a while” “Yeah they open hard unexpectedly sometimes,” “Sabres will occasionally open hard,” “By reputation, some sabres open harder than others. “ “I got really hard openings every jump. “ “I got my teeth rattled a few times.” “My back -- like 4 years later -- is still sore from a sabre opening” “I don't like Sabress. All my experiences with Sabres's have been unpleasant. I primarily mean the openings,” “I have experienced the Sabre Spank' on a 150, and have the X-rays to prove it..” “I have a Sabre 190, and most of my opennigs just beat the crap out of me!!!” “I jump a sabre-1 and it's given me bruises a couple times,” “I have video of a sabre opening in about 75 feet, extremely hard “ “Openings were problematic at first,” “A lot of people complain of hard openings,” “Lots of u guys out there r trying to blame your hard Sabre openings on the pack job...” “I have approximately 1,100 total jumps on sabre 150's and sabre 135's and have experienced a handful of rather brisk openings and 2 of them were excruciating and kept me from jumping for the rest of the day.” “Openings are not so great. In my opinion it would be one thing if it opened hard all the time or soft all the time but it does not. Some openings are good others are not” “Pack carefully, handle the wraped up slider as you would an atomic bomb - as thats what it is! Let the thing slip everywhere then shove in the bag; You will be sorry..” “but about 75% of the time, I get these opening that make me flinch and tighten up every muscle in my body in fear of the opening. Most Sunday nights, when I am driving home, my neck hurts like I was in a car accident, and I have bruises on the insides of my legs that just shouldn't be there... I have tried everything- rolling the nose 4-4, tight rolling the nose together, tight rolling the tail, stowing my lines tight, etc... Nothing helps, don't know what to say about the opening, but I can't wait until I get my PISA Hornet...” “Openings have been brisk, but I've never been slammed (although I lent my rig to a friend and she said she was).” “I've had a very bad opening about every two or three. No matter what I did, tens of rolls everywere or no rolls, spend 1 hour and a half packing it,use the tighest rubber bands ever, it used to hit me.” “I had an instant canopy that knocked the wind from my body. I was in such pain that all I wanted to do was land. After landing discovered the leg straps had grazed the skin from my inner thighs. The next day I was barely able to stand and the black bruising around my thighs meant I looked like I was still wearing my harness.” “I was wacked so hard that I had a compression fracture of T6 and a cracked T12 along with a neck sprain.” “in my 90 jumps on it, I had 3 soft openings. This thing was killing me. I had it relined by PD as soon as I bought it and no matter who's advice I took or what I did, I was constantly seeing stars. I tried rolling the nose tightly all to one side and going to the back, I tried nothing with the nose, I tried splitting the nose, I rolled the tail unbelievably tight and still the openings stunk. After an opening where the slider came down fast enough to rip the rubber stops and put a rip in the slider and wrap itself around my face, so all I saw was the orange slider (nice backdrop for the stars), I got rid of it and bought a spectre 150, and will never look back.” ”Most of the openings on Sabres are ok, but it's those slammers! One in every 70 or so jumps, no matter how carefully you've packed, even if you've packed exactly the same as the last 70 pack jobs they can bite. I had one opening on my Sabre 135 that was so hard I thought I had broken a rib! I could give you plenty of examples of experiences friends of mine have had with bad Sabre openings... by and large the openings on the Sabre are fine but when they bite they're nasty!” “Used to fly a Sabre, and the openings where so bad I had no intentions of ever buying another one” “I jumped my 170 Sabre for about 40 times until I realized that my neck could handle about 50 more openings.” “harder than the saber i used to fly and that spanked me on a regular basis.” “This was welcome from the ever surprising Sabre slam that comes when you least expect it. “ “It just comes out of no where. Don't do anything different packing,and all the sudden your looking for the train....” “the sabre has a reputation for hard openings” “Any canopy that requires a modification to the slider to tame the openings has more than packing issues” ”i wouldn't wish one on my worst enemy....ok, maybe on my worst enemy, but nobody else...” “it is the lightly loaded sabre's that tend to be more violent openings. “ “I have been whacked a few times on the 150 and 107” “I've had a few harder openings,” “I had one that tried to kill me. Saw a Racer completely ripped apart by one.Met a girl from Virginia that has scars on her head from the halo head thingy after breaking her neck.All on 170s.” "Sabre 1 - reputation for hard openings - not all examples - can easily be tamed “ “My personal opinion is that the Sabre sucks. I can count the number of times I've been whacked under canopy on one hand and I think 4 out of the 5 whackers were under a Sabre.” ”I experienced the hard openings, still 'enjoying' one I had more than a month ago” “I'm getting a bit scared to pull: my poor back.” “best way to make a sabre open softer... Sell it.” “My Sabre 150 used to whack me every once in a while (bruised rib)” “Mine didn't slam me too badly until I had it relined” “I have had one extremely hard opening that about broke me in half,” NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #41 October 5, 2005 WAIT!!! Don't stop reading yet!!! here's more: These aren't 100 jump wonders posting, these are people with THOUSANDS of jumps... Quote So.....there seems to be a common name in these hard opening comments :Sabre. As someone who is still going to the chiropractor from a Sabre (which I will never jump again) opening a month ago, it seems to me that maybe PD needs to start selling the sabres with the modified slider? edit: oops, here's another Sabre incident for you though: Quote I have disagree as I broke my back on a hard opening. I was jumping a Sabre 150 and after a 1 second opening I sent the canopy back. PD made some test jumps on the canopy and they got smacked on it as well. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Witelli 0 #42 October 5, 2005 We've all heard of the hard openings of the Sabre, why even chance it? I'll be looking into gear next year and that won't even be an option. I don't know crap, but if I've heard something as much as I've heard about the hard openings of the Sabre, I surely don't want to have anything to do with it. Why is there even an arguement? You can't say this canopy doesn't have the highest smack rate? At least from what we've heard in these forums. Plus, it's no longer in production. So who cares. Just don't buy one. Or, buy one if you don't cringe easilly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #43 October 5, 2005 Thank you for sharing. I'm still not impressed. It wasn't in production for 12 years for nothing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fireflyer 0 #44 October 5, 2005 wow, some people have a lot of free time to bitch. i'd write more, but i'm alotting more time away from the computer as i have a sabre and need more time to pack . i love the battle too, but i think 10000>240 (PS: i know 240>my 79 too ) can't we just all get whacked together? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #45 October 5, 2005 QuoteThe Spectre in particular has _very_ slow openings. Don't tell that to Anne. A sunpath packer packed a spectre up for her when she was demoing a javelin. it opened so hard it broked about 6-7 lines off the front of the canopy. She just felt a BIG OWE!! It just goes to show that ANY canopy can open hard. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #46 October 5, 2005 QuoteGiven the amount of PD fanboys it doesn't surprise me at all actually. Says the man with a PDR 176 in his rig...and, I believe, a Stilleto main, based on past posts... ANY parachute can slam you...some have more of a record of it than others. There are also measures that can be taken to control it, and in some cases, eliminate it. That does not mean the parachute in question is 'bad' or 'trash', IMO.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #47 October 5, 2005 QuoteThank you for sharing. I'm still not impressed. It wasn't in production for 12 years for nothing. The Glidepath Nova was in production for a number of years, too, as was the Ford Pinto. What's your point?Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #48 October 5, 2005 QuoteWhat's your point? I think the point is that people are hard headed. With some of the attitudes displayed here, it is no wonder juries can't convict people like OJ and Robert Blake. Yes, I have a PD Reserve, it IS a good canopy, but the Sabre is not. I have jumped a Stiletto, but I wouldn't buy one. I'd jump it just for fun though.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #49 October 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteThank you for sharing. I'm still not impressed. It wasn't in production for 12 years for nothing. The Glidepath Nova was in production for a number of years, too, as was the Ford Pinto. What's your point? My point is that it has an established reputation amongst experienced skydivers as a good canopy. I will continue to believe the stories by those experienced skydivers that have put thousands of jumps on Sabre1's over a 240 jump, 1 year overly paranoid skydiver. Furthermore, since the canopy in question has been out of production for 4 years now, it will become less and less of an issue as the remaining canopies are "used up". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,471 #50 October 5, 2005 > I will continue to believe the stories by those experienced skydivers >that have put thousands of jumps on Sabre1's . . . Between Amy and I we put about 2200 jumps on a Sabre 1 150 before it blew up. It took some extraordinary measures to slow it down (bigger slider, slider pocket, longer brake lines) but we eventually slowed it down to the point that it was reasonable. The stock (unmodified) canopy was pretty brutal when it came to openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
