AFF Student loses canopy

[packerboy 3]

Student, DZ eats it to keep the person in the sport. (there are other reasons, but this should be a financial motivation for the DZ).

Renter, renter pays. C'mon now... sorry 'bout the car Mr. Hertz, but I lost it. I personally think it is ridiculous to think that the DZ should eat the cost of gear that is rented and not returned. It's grey when the DZ packer packs something nasty, but not all malfunctions are the fault of the packer either. Thats the risks you take when you rent. It may not be your fault, but it's not your fault if someone hits your rental car in the parking lot either.

Perhaps DZ's should rent gear with or without insurance for such things.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Witelli 0]

The DZ should carry insurance if it's an issue. Even with rental gear. I'm sure the DZ or renter could eat the costs or incorporate it into the rental fees. People renting are usually newbies and they shouldn't have to worry about this when deciding to cutaway, or not. As for borrowing a rig from a friend. I would expect it returned in the same condition I lent it in. Reason being, a friend doesn't make money on their equipment to cover costs, a DZ does.

But then again, if you signed something that states your responsibility, you're obviously SOL.

[Keith 0]

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Ethically, the DZ should always cover the cost if it is a student.

The thought, "I can't afford to chop this", should never even enter the students head.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[Eule 0]

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Ethically, the DZ should always cover the cost if it is a student.
The thought, "I can't afford to chop this", should never even enter the students head.

I agree with this.

The DZ I jump at doesn't charge "gear rental" separately for student jumps. The jump is a certain price and
the instructors, gear, jump ticket, etc are all included. I looked back over the wavier I signed and it mostly
seems to cover me making a claim because I get hurt, but some of the "claim of loss" stuff might be
construed to include the gear. I am not a lawyer.

Looking at the economics of it, I figure it like this. I know what I pay for a one-instructor AFF jump. I
know what the instructor gets out of that, because one of my instructors volunteered it one day. I figure
the normal (licensed jumper) jump ticket price is pretty close to the marginal cost to put one more person
on the load. I also figure the packer gets his normal rate. Doing the math, I find that after the instructors'
cut, two jump tickets, and a pack job, approximately half of the jump price remains. Depending on exactly
how much the replacement canopy costs, something like 30 to 35 jumps, plus or minus, would pay for it.
Therefore, if a particular student rig has a cutaway with complete loss of the main canopy less than once
every 35 or so jumps, then the DZ is making money.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[shunkka 0]

another thread about lost mains

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1364942;search_string=lost%20main;#1364942

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"jump, have fun, pull"

[dragon2 0]

No true, besides the canopy, the pilotchute, bridle, bag and risers are also gone. Also you can lose the freebag and both handles. That's a lot of money, about USD 3000 if everything is new.

Also you need to factor in the maintenance costs: repacks, checks, repairs.

Don't know what the number of jumps will come to but it's way more than 35 jumps a rig.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[tdog 0]

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Student, DZ eats it to keep the person in the sport. (there are other reasons, but this should be a financial motivation for the DZ).

Renter, renter pays. C'mon now... sorry 'bout the car Mr. Hertz, but I lost it. I personally think it is ridiculous to think that the DZ should eat the cost of gear that is rented and not returned.

One thing to keep in mind about Mr. Hertz and all other acts of negligence/accidents in the "real world". Insurance/renter pays the fair market value of the item damaged...

Take a $25,000 car new off the lot. Drive it 15,000 miles in a rental situation. Renter totals it...

Renter pays not $25,000, but pays maybe $18,000...

So, even if a DZO made a renter pay for the lost main, they should never charge full price...

The average rental canopy has seen some jumps... What is it worth, 25% of the new price???

And, if I was a DZO and an experienced jumper lost a main, and they tried real hard to look for it... Well, I would give them a get out of jail for free card, as, shit happens and I would want that customer for life...

Students - no question... Never pay...

[Andy_Copland 0]

Being a student and paying through my nose i'd hate to be made to pay for another canopy. Especially when you consider that he/she probably didnt even pack it.

Just imagine if someone had a mal and thought it landable only to end up seriously injured with the thought of "hmmm i can't afford a canopy of my own yet let alone one for this DZ"

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[chutem 0]

I don't think it is up to the DZ to cary insurance on rentals, it is however up to the DZ to clearly state in the rental agreement how this is handled. You then have the option to rent or not rent the gear. For students I think it should be the dropzones responsibility, although the student should do his best to find the canopy/gear.
James

[EvilLurker 2]

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You then have the option to rent or not rent the gear.

I never had that option while I was on student status. They told me what gear I would be jumping. Once I had my "A", of course, I had the choice to rent or buy, so I bought. I'm pretty sure that's SOP at most DZ's.

[chutem 0]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, my opinion is students should not be charged, but should make a good faith effort to help in the recovery of the canopy. In no way does this mean they should attempt to follow it down just help look for it. Don't want them worrying about it costing them to chop. I was responding to the poster who said that the DZ should have insurance for the rentals. In my opinion as long as it is clearly stated in the rental agreement who is responsible then it is what it is. I am in the boat rental buis. and my contract clearly states that lost/damaged equip. will be paid for by the renter.
James

[EvilLurker 2]

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Sorry if I wasn't clear

I reread it with my brain engaged. Yes, the student should be willing to make a reasonable effort to watch/find the main and help recover it, but the fact is, the DZO knows the area, has a plane and has a staff, and they should all chip in and expend the effort to find/recover the gear, and if that's not possible, they eat the cost. Every student chop I saw, the main landed pretty close to the landing area, since the JMs were doing a good job of spotting, and we recovered them in just a few minutes.
"I was responding to the poster who said that the DZ should have insurance for the rentals. "
I guess if they want their money back, that's their choice, but if the DZO thinks a 5 year old Manta that's lost is going to get replaced full-value, they haven't dealt with an insurance claim before.

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I am in the boat rental buis. and my contract clearly states that lost/damaged equip. will be paid for by the renter.

But if you rent a boat to someone and it has an engine fire, you'll have quite a challenge collecting, I'm willing to bet.

[chutem 0]

If I rent you a boat that has an engine fire I would not even consider trying to charge you for it. If you bring back one of my boats with a damaged prop you will pay out of the deposit. I would like to think if you rent gear and have a reserve mal that the DZ would not charge for it.
James

[skyflychris 0]

Regardless of who pays, at least the student is there to tell the tale. Props to the the training !!!

Ordinary's..... just not good enough today.

[druvaughn 0]

I hope this isn't repetative:

If you are renting the gear, what is the difference between being a "student renter" and a "renter".

You are a renter either way. Your student status, I would imagine (lack of actual knowledge, though otherwise referred earlier) had little to do with the malfunction unless you cut away prematurely in the case of line twists that you didn't try to kick out of ( this would make the renter, not rentee liable ).

If we think of other rental scenarios ( cars, TVs, power equipment ), if you are the cause, you owe for the property -- it was your negliect.

-
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"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

[billvon 2,427]

> If I rent you a boat that has an engine fire I would not even consider
>trying to charge you for it. If you bring back one of my boats with a
>damaged prop you will pay out of the deposit.

Sounds like the equivalent there would be charging the student for any costs arising from a body-position-induced mal, but not charging for a packer-induced mal. Would be hard to tell which it was though.

[Eule 0]

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No true, besides the canopy, the pilotchute, bridle, bag and risers are also gone. Also you can lose the freebag and both handles. That's a lot of money, about USD 3000 if everything is new.

OK, then it's about 50 jumps, plus or minus.

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Also you need to factor in the maintenance costs: repacks, checks, repairs.

The repacks and checks should only add a jump or two to the price. The repairs will vary - are they just
fixing the stitching on a leg pad, or replacing one of the main straps in the harness?

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Don't know what the number of jumps will come to but it's way more than 35 jumps a rig.

My numbers assumed that the rig is getting used for one-instructor AFF jumps all the time. These are
typically over US$100 and possibly more depending on where you jump.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[dragon2 0]

These rigs are not used for AFF only, also for solos after AFF or SL. Usually at least for the first 25 jumps. Then you just pay rent for the gear which isn't that much.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Andy9o8 0]

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If you are renting the gear, what is the difference between being a "student renter" and a "renter".

The difference is that a "student renter" is required to rent the DZ gear (unless he owns his own personal Manta & student Cypres, which is pretty doubtful), on top of the high price of his student jumps. A non-student renter has the option of renting the DZ's gear or getting his own gear to jump.

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Your student status, I would imagine (lack of actual knowledge, though otherwise referred earlier) had little to do with the malfunction unless you cut away prematurely in the case of line twists that you didn't try to kick out of ( this would make the renter, not rentee liable).

If a student is uncertain, due to his inexperience, whether his spinner can safely be screwed around with for awhile (before chopping), he's already in a high-stress situation. When he's making that decision whether or not to chop that spinner, he needs to put his safety first, and not worry about whether the DZ will second-guess whether he "should have" chopped. As it was said in previous posts, a student shouldn't be thinking "can I afford to chop this?" if he thinks he has a mal.

Nor should a student or very inexperienced canopy flier chase down his cutaway main into a potentially dangerous out landing, unless there are plenty of wide-open outs at that DZ, like big farm fields or desert. Also, an inexperienced canopy pilot is more likely to interfere with another canopy's landing pattern (DANGER!!) if he's paying more attention to keeping his eye on his cutaway main than on the canopy traffic around him.

[druvaughn 0]

The difference is that a "student renter" is required to rent the DZ gear (unless he owns his own personal Manta & student Cypres, which is pretty doubtful), on top of the high price of his student jumps. A non-student renter has the option of renting the DZ's gear or getting his own gear to jump.

Andy, thanks for the reply -- I would still think that you are renting the gear, regardless of the reason for renting. Is the rental contract different for students and non-students?. The fall back for the DZ and renter would be clearly written terms in a contract. You would of course need two contracts, one for students and one for non-students.

The followup thought would be that when renting a boat or car, camper, or parachute, you still have the option of renting or not renting. If you don't rent, however, you don't get to engage in the activity, but it is "your choice to rent or to own".

Could a DZ operator or a coach elaborate -- if I buy a student rig with proper wing loading, why can't I jump my own equiptment, provided that a rigger packs the chute?

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"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

[sagan 0]

"The DZ should carry insurance if it's an issue."

Can someone explain the insurance bit to me? I was actually discussing with a coworker about the feasibility of attaching a radio beacon on the risers and the discussion turned quite interestng in the office, with the conclusion that insuring a piece of property worth $1000, $2000, $3000, whatever (it's less than $5000 for sure) is much cheaper than a tracking device.

I mean loyds insures everythign and anything, I'd be curious what the cost of insuring a canopy for life would be? Co-workers familiar with insurance speculated the canopy manufacturers could attach an insurance option for about 5-10% of the cost of the canopy for life.

*as for the topic at hand* Having just received my A license I've thought about that moment of, "hmm can I afford to cut it" before, thankfully while on the ground, and decided to never let that become a decision.

-Patrick

[SkyTango 0]

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*as for the topic at hand* Having just received my A license I've thought about that moment of, "hmm can I afford to cut it" before, thankfully while on the ground, and decided to never let that become a decision.

Good choice. The mathematics is easy:

New canopy = +- $2000
Your life = much more than $2000

I guess it's the same as rigging. Sort it out on the ground.
JC

If you woke up breathing, congratulations!
You get another chance.

[riddler 0]

Where I started jumping, the DZO was a cheap %$# that tried to get the students to pay him for everything on a cutaway - buy all missing handles, etc - this is after charging $25 PER JUMP to rent the old and worthless gear. The new DZO has new rental gear, but I don't know what the new policy is for cutaways.

I really feel that the cost of the gear rental should cover the losses after a cutaway. You don't want to train students to throw away handles, and have them rethinking that at altitude just because they don't want to pay for them.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[inzite 0]

Have you started checking the local dachas and gardens? It's probably sitting in a backyard keeping some babushka's cucumbers warm.