billyg23 0 #1 January 15, 2006 hey ho.....anyone got any tips on how to sort out end cell closure upon opening on my pilot 168?its got 45 jumps on it..at 1.2 wing loading....is there anything i can do or is it a case of 'ride 'em out cowboy?'.---------------------------------------- I AM THE ATMOSPHERE HOOLIGAN Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #2 January 15, 2006 How many jumps on the canopy/lineset? How do you pack... Does your slider come all the way down at the end of the opening sequence? When do the end cells open? After you release the brakes? After some pumping...? There are two 168's on my DZ and this has not been an issue for either of them. One is loaded about the same as yours and one a bit higher. My general approach to end cell closures over the years has been to ignore them, except as they might be an indication of a bigger problem (trim, slider friction...) -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billyg23 0 #3 January 15, 2006 its a brand new canopy....45 jumps on canopy and lines all done by me...i PRO pack,i never roll the nose (like my old coe-d!!) and only put a couple of rolls in the tail..opening sequence is fine,slider all the way down ,most of the time!....but the end cells shut usually giving me spins, i usually grab the rear risers and apply gentle pressure before releasing toggles as i just wanna get straight asap in case anyone else is close by. i had twists (only a couple) induced by the turn from ECC in spain 2 weeks ago...the 1st time thats happened..my mate has one too....at same wing loading....he's quite used to the ECC now---------------------------------------- I AM THE ATMOSPHERE HOOLIGAN Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #4 January 15, 2006 I demo'd a pilot 168 at Davis and put two jumps on it. I am at about the same wing loading. The rep from Aerodyne told me it is just part of the opening character of the canopy, soft, slow and closed end cells. His advice was to just let it be for a couple of seconds. They should pop open. If not, then give them a couple rear riser pumps.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jas8472 0 #5 January 15, 2006 mine is a 168 at about the same WL, it did both end cells almost every jump for about 30-40 jumps, then just one side for about 20 jumps, then one side every 5-10 jumps for a while, it hardly ever does it anymore, it's been fine since about 150 jumps, its now got about 400 on it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #6 January 15, 2006 I haven't seen one give anyone "the spins" on opening. End cell hesitation yes. But generally good on heading soft openings. What is your wing loading? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jackpunx 0 #7 January 15, 2006 I have a new one too. No spins but end cells take a few seconds to open.. then its all good Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dharma1976 0 #8 January 15, 2006 do ou pull the tail towards you as you pack? if you do you might be pulling the d lines a little and in addition a little unevenly try to keep the tail towards the pack job while rolling the tail and see if that make a difference. Davehttp://www.skyjunky.com CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #9 January 15, 2006 I jump a Pilot 188. I have about 130 jumps on it. get end cell closure occationally. I have used a Packer that tends to really bias the Nose when they quarter the slider. Those openings will always have end cell closure. When the Slider is Centered, all is well.. Nice slow smooth openings. The only time it was ever a problem (Starting to Spin) was when I got endcell closure and a Break fire at the same time. I had already grabbed the handles about to chop when I saw the problem. Released the other toggle and everything was fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #10 January 15, 2006 My Pilot's a 210, but I'm loading at about 1.25. I occasionally get end cell closures, but a slight tug on the rear risers cleans it all out nicely. Since I'm do RW I'm always reaching for my rears on opening anyway, just in case I need to make a quick turn if somebody else is nearby. I do a normal pro-pack, if I pull the slider anywhere when I quarter it, it would be towards the tail, as I like to try to keep the opening on the quick side if I can help it. But the dead end cells are so manageable that I've never had any real concerns about them. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #11 January 15, 2006 Quotehey ho.....anyone got any tips on how to sort out end cell closure upon opening on my pilot 168?its got 45 jumps on it..at 1.2 wing loading....is there anything i can do or is it a case of 'ride 'em out cowboy?'. im not sure what kind of lines are on it, but some lines that manufacturers are using shrink after 50-100 jumps. so your brakes may be set loose to compensate for this,which in turn can slow your openings and possibly cause this. if your still having an issue after 100 jumps and it is bothersome to you, you can speed the openings up a bit by moving the eyelet in your brakes setting up the line an inch or so, this will speed the opening a bit and reduce this problem. if one inch doesn't do it, go two inches. before you try any of this talk with the manufacturer first. also talk with a master rigger about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #12 January 15, 2006 Generally end cell closures themselves are not causes of spins. There is something else going on here. This is a fairly mellow canopy, and you are not loading it aggressively, so it is not very sensitive to assymetries in harness position during opening. If you were at my DZ I'd want to look the canopy over, check the line trim, etc., and watch you pack. I don't know what ECC means, but then everyone who knows me knows I dumb. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pjc 0 #13 January 15, 2006 I've got a p168 loaded the same and I don't get ecc. But my previous canopy a P188 gave me ecc and a 90-270 turn on most jumps, always to the left. i pro-pack both & evenly quarter the slider, but I think I may have rolled the tail too hard on the 188 and could have been catching the left hand end cell(s) in the roll. Is your ecc on the same side every time? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billyg23 0 #14 January 15, 2006 ) I think i will get the line trim checked at the next available oppurtunity as this seems to have cropped up twice.an advanced rigger has watched me pack and said i am doing things right but that was a while ago....i think i will get this checked again...also someone suggested that excessive 'tucking under' /and laying the canopy down awkwardly can cause problems...so maybe it will iron itself out as i get more experience and the canopy loosens up???---------------------------------------- I AM THE ATMOSPHERE HOOLIGAN Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropoutdave 0 #15 January 16, 2006 Just out of curiosity, would the end cells not being inflated affect the flight characteristics of the canopy if you had to take evasive action immediately after opening and crank down on a rear riser? ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeepDiver 0 #16 January 16, 2006 Quote Just out of curiosity, would the end cells not being inflated affect the flight characteristics of the canopy if you had to take evasive action immediately after opening and crank down on a rear riser? Not saying that I know the correct answer. I did this on my sabre2, as soon as I started a right rear riser turn with my brakes stowed my right end cell inflated followed quickly by the left end cell. I was doing practice evasive actions at the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropoutdave 0 #17 January 16, 2006 Aye that sounds about right now I think about it. ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #18 January 16, 2006 >would the end cells not being inflated affect the flight characteristics > of the canopy if you had to take evasive action immediately after > opening and crank down on a rear riser? Not really. Heck, they don't affect you much most of the time, other than causing your canopy to turn. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #19 January 18, 2006 If the end cells are only closed on one side causing an off heading opening try feeling which way the canopy wants to go while its in the snivel and steer it the other way with a little harness input. that's how I keep my pilot straight on opening.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
