Industrial Haze

[plummeteer 0]

But if it "moved in" were you actually close enough to it to gauge how thick? And if so, are you sure it had a consistant thickness from leading edge to what may be under you at exit time? I personally don't like how industrial haze feels to fall thru, aside from visiblity issues which I think are more important. As (from another poster) far as getting the pilot in hot water goes, if he's not, then who is turning on the green light?
Mark

Edo
Concumbui
Aethrae Cernuare

[kelpdiver 2]

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But if it "moved in" were you actually close enough to it to gauge how thick? And if so, are you sure it had a consistant thickness from leading edge to what may be under you at exit time?

I'm not understanding the question. The plane takes off 10-20 minutes before exit time. Clouds don't move that fast. And the plane generally isn't all that far away from the exit point.

I've been caught off guard before at a DZ where the flight path does stray pretty far off on an out and back pattern. That one was also bad in that the bottom was pretty close to pull time for me (came out of clouds a couple hundred feet above). But at the local spots, it's usually possible to identify that the bottom of the low layer is ~5000, for instance.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Remember... GPS tells you exactly where you are... it doesn't do dick about where you want to be

what do you mean by that?

[Hazarrd 1]

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If you indeed cannot see the ground and you are in the U.S., you should not jump.

Put yourself in your pilots shoes. He has invested thousands and thousands of dollars and many years..indeed much of his life into a career that you have the power to F up.

The FARs say that no pilot in command may allow you to do what you described.

All it takes is another plane to query approach why there are bodies dropping through a cloud layer...guess what...your pilot now has a record that will probably prevent, and at the least slow down his advancement in his career. He will likely loose his ratings, need to spend thousnads to regain them, and probably also wait 6mos to a year or more before he can try and get them again. That means no money during that time.

How about I come to your work and f up your livelihood? How would you like to go from making 20K a year to even less when you loose your job because you are no longer licensed and must work at Mcdonalds?

It is not a joke and it is not cool and it is not acceptable and it is not safe to jump through a solid could deck.

I dont mean to lecture, but dont risk my career so that you can get one more jump.

I cant believe that the poll is favoring jumping. I hope none of you are at my dz.

I have to question you here. If it falls on the pilot, then maybe that green light shouldnt come on? You can see out the window too...

.-.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Remember... GPS tells you exactly where you are... it doesn't do dick about where you want to be

what do you mean by that?

GPS will tell you exactly where you are, but in the case of skydiving... how do you know that's where the spot is at?

I've been equally screwed on "bad spots" when GPS was used as well as doing it the old-fashoined way.

[propilot 0]

Well, I suppose if the green light is on then its a different story. Rereading the original post, id say the pilot is at fault but also the jumpers are too.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Well, I suppose if the green light is on then its a different story...

Ugh! The ol' "the green light is on -- get out" story...

[bob.dino 0]

I don't think he's saying that. He's saying that if it's 8/8 in the USA and the pilot turned the green light on, then he's at least partially to blame if he gets busted for dropping through cloud.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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I don't think he's saying that. He's saying that if it's 8/8 in the USA and the pilot turned the green light on, then he's at least partially to blame if he gets busted for dropping through cloud.

... yeah, okay, I'll give you that... my bad.

Anyway, if the pilot gets busted by the FAA for dropping through clouds, then he or she is pretty much responsible... as they're the person the FAA is going to take the "pilot's license" away from.

[diablopilot 2]

Here's my take on the the "Greenlightgo" thing.

If the pilot has turned it on, now it's my turn to act on the decision I've made to go/no go. Not before that.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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If the pilot has turned it on, now it's my turn to act on the decision I've made to go/no go. Not before that.

Dunno... wing comes off... smoke and flames in the cockpit... airplane departs controlled flight and begins to spin towards the dirt... I ain't waitin' for no stinkin' green light!

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Remember... GPS tells you exactly where you are... it doesn't do dick about where you want to be

what do you mean by that?

A GPS unit will tell you where you are, but it has no way of telling you what the optimum spot is, or how close to that optimum spot you are.

GPS does not replace spotting.

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[MrBounce 0]

I know I've only been jumping properly for two years, but I don't know anyone jumping in the UK who hasn't jumped through cloud. Its a fact of life in this country.

Also, while the JM may say its good to go, in a large aircraft, by the time you're getting out at the back, you may have covered as much as a mile.

Ultimately, look down... your call

Gavin

Gavin

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. If you don't take it out and use it, its going to rust.

[Dolph 0]

I really dislike not being able to see traffic below. At our club, there's a lot of motor- and glider traffic.

Gliders, just to piss skydivers off, are white. To further infuriate us, they seem to like to stick around clouds.

I think it's effort enough to spot 'em on climbout. If there is glider traffic and "industrial haze", if you choose to jump, you've really increased the risks of something bad happening.

I'm guilty of jumping through clouds too. Some experiences have left me less than enthusiastic about it. Once got out into a hail/rain cloud in Russia. Was very painful and just as dangerous. Been too close to other groups on another occasion or two - no one could tell line of flight and tracked the "wrong way".

I'll admit that on hop 'n pops here in the winter where there is little or no other traffic, I'll jump if I can get a glimpse of the ground, the cloud layer is thin and relatively high.

[kelpdiver 2]

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A GPS unit will tell you where you are, but it has no way of telling you what the optimum spot is, or how close to that optimum spot you are.

GPS does not replace spotting.

It isn't rocket science, esp if you use the experience of the prior load. Load 1 is a different matter, but around here, tends to be windless and trivial. The tricky load is midday when winds may reverse.

GPS will tell you how close you are to what you think is the optimum spot, should be more accurate than looking down from the door. Both rely on preplanning with knowledge of the winds. So yeah, if you get that wrong, GPS won't correct you. But what will?

[tso-d_chris 0]

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GPS will tell you how close you are to what you think is the optimum spot, should be more accurate than looking down from the door. Both rely on preplanning with knowledge of the winds. So yeah, if you get that wrong, GPS won't correct you. But what will?

Get the winds aloft and determine the spot. The method does not change depending on wind direction.

I will trust a visual verification of the plane's location for jump run long before I trust a green light turned on by a pilot who has engines to get him back to the airport. There is no substitute for a visual of the landing area.

>But what will?

WDI

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[jasonRose 0]

I know I will get my ass reamed for this but o well.

I love industrial haze, jumping through it, around it, on it.

My personal opinion only and by no means would I allow someone to jump through it with me that doesn't know the risks involved.

Some day I will have the best staff in the world!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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I will trust a visual verification of the plane's location for jump run long before I trust a green light turned on by a pilot who has engines to get him back to the airport. There is no substitute for a visual of the landing area.

So the concern is more with the pilot's use of the GPS than the device itself?

I've never been in the situation where you didn't have a decent approximation of where you were with nearly landmasses. If the world was a sheet of white below me, I think I'd stay onboard.

[pjc 0]

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I know I've only been jumping properly for two years, but I don't know anyone jumping in the UK who hasn't jumped through cloud. Its a fact of life in this country.

Different DZ's seem to have differing views on this. I'm not saying where this pic was taken though...

[mcdizzle 0]

The interpretation of the green light has become skewed. All the green light means is the pilot has approval from ATC, has checked the area for traffic to the best of their ability, and as far as spotting goes, if you exit now, you'll most likely make it to the landing area. The majority of my experience has been flying jumpers in areas where weather is a factor more often than not. If jumpers are willing to buy a ticket and board the airplane on weather days, then I'm willing to go take a look if I can maintain my cloud clearances on the way to altitude. Before turning on jumprund, if it looks solid, I will typically do a pass with just the door open and then descend. If it looks broken, I'll give a green light. When I'm on jumprun, I can't see directly down over the dz. When I give a green light, its up to jumpers to decide if they can meet the criteria for a legal jump. If you can't, I expect you to either wait until you can which may require a go around or 2 or to close the door and ride it down. Getting out shows a total lack of respect for the pilot. I'm trusting you to make the right call, as you are trusting me to operate the aircraft in a safe manner. The regulations state:

§105.17 Flight visibility and clearance from cloud requirements.

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft --

(a) Into or through a cloud, or

(b) When the flight visibility or the distance from any cloud is less than that prescribed in the following table:
you all should know the "table" by now. Notice it doesn't say anything about being OK for tandems and experienced jumpers, but not for students. The rules apply to all jumpers and the pilot at all times. You can say its the pilots fault for even giving a light, but look at the reg. YOU are responsible too.
Contrary to whoever said clouds don't move that fast, weather can change dramatically from the time you take off to the time you're about to exit. If you need to salvage your jump ticket that bad by getting out over solid clouds, you're a moron. I've landed plently of times with full loads. Not that I like to do it, and I won't takeoff unless I think there is a pretty good opportunity to get the load out but its the chance jumpers take when they board. Rules in aviation are usually in place because someone died or almost died. Like was said before, If you said yes, I hope you don't jump at a dropzone where I fly.

[diablopilot 2]

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No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft --

If you have any doubt as to the legality of the jump, or the security of your ticket, do not give the jumpers permision to exit. i.e. don't turn on the green light.

There is no FAA regulation involving the green light, there for it is a DZ/Pilot reponsibility to address the procedures surounding the "lights". Every DZ I've ever been to has a similar procedure involving the pilot giving permision to jump through the use of lights. At that point if a jumper exits in non jumpable conditions, the blame still falls on the pilot. Fair? No., but them's the apples.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tombuch 0]

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(b) When the flight visibility or the distance from any cloud is less than that prescribed in the following table:
you all should know the "table" by now. Notice it doesn't say anything about being OK for tandems and experienced jumpers, but not for students. The rules apply to all jumpers and the pilot at all times. You can say its the pilots fault for even giving a light, but look at the reg. YOU are responsible too.

I gotta add something here...

In the United States it's not just the pilot and jumper that face FAA enforcement action. The DZ, airplane owner, manifestor, and anybody else connected to the jump or drop zone can also become involved in an enforcement action. Before stepping out of the airplane consider if it is really worth placing responsibility on all those people.

See http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php, and read article 13 "FAA Regulations Applied, and article 19 "Jumping Near Clouds."
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Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[TrickyDicky 0]

I have an interesting, but sad annecdote involving cloud that I was on.

It was a cloudy day, but broken over the DZ. The cloud base was about 4k. 10 jumpers left on board (5 had got out to do a demo at 3k a few miles from the DZ). Red and green go on as normal, jumpers start to exit. When we've all opened, we realise we're at least 2 miles from the DZ, the other side of national grid powerlines. 2 jumpers made it back to the DZ because they pulled high.

Unfortunatly on this load was a guy new to the DZ with 150 jumps, a 150 he'd never jumped before and an out of date reserve (at the time, the owner didnt see how it was his responsibility to ensure peoples reserves were in date. The Ops manual actually says jumpers are responsible for their own equipment). Plus he'd never jumped in the UK (having only jumped in cyprus and the US before because he was UK military).

This guy made a low turn to avoid a fence about 1.5miles from the DZ and spanked in. The aftermath meant the JM was banned from being JM for 6 months, and the DZO got a severe bollocking for not checking kit (even though its not his responsibility, and he went in through no fault but his own). This guy (that went in) was B licence so qualified to check his own spot/cloud but made the decision to jump. Many people at the DZ though the punishments (mainly for the JM) were a little unfair.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[skytash 0]

I voted yes, but it does actually depend. One of the dropzones I jump at is in the middle of a military zone, so few incursions by other aircraft - the other, I probably wouldn't.

Also, if I was the jumpmaster having to make that decision I'd have been making it all the way up and possibly not even let the plane climb that high in the first place if the layer was too thick while climbing through it. A thick layer doesn't just appear once I'm at 13.5k.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[dzjohn 0]

I voted depends, In if ive jumped that dz before and how well I know the area around me and what kinda clouds they are as well.
Have done a couple of jumps through cloud but we were doing checks all the way up to see how thick the layer was and what the base was at at the drop zone.