funks 1 #1 February 1, 2006 You're at 13,500 feet. Green light is on, door is open. GPS is being used to do the spotting. A thick cloud of industrial haze has moved in at 8,000 feet completely preventing you from seeing the ground and what is below. It is clear from 7,000 feet and below. It is at your discretion whether or not to leave the airplane. Do you jump? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #2 February 1, 2006 Is think supposed to be thick or thin? Cuz that could change my answer. But since you said "I cannot see the ground," no, I wouldn't get out. Because it's not the ground I'm worried about, it's the aircraft under that big mess of industrial haze that I'm worried about. My home DZ is at a very busy private airport and there are often pilots around who don't heed the warnings of skydiver traffic. This has actually happened to me at my home DZ - I was spotting on an iffy day and the "haze" moved in as we were turning on jump run. Looked good all along during the ride up, but with the door open, I couldn't see diddly. I said I wasn't going to get out, and rode the plane down to a lower altitude. There were two reasons 1) I didn't feel safe and 2) there was an AFF-1 getting out behind me, and I wouldn't have wanted to set a bad example by getting out and then having his instructors look out and say "we're riding the plane down.""There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adriandavies 0 #3 February 1, 2006 Its a fact of life in the UK, but our rules are different from those found in the States. We have to be able to see the LZ from opening point so we can jump through quite thick 'industrial haze' as long as we open where we can see the LZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #4 February 1, 2006 Am I in the U.S.? Do I ever want to jump at that DZ again? Is the pilot my friend? Can I visualize a perfectly round 2-mile hole? Is everyone shouting at me? Do I have video? -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #5 February 1, 2006 If I'm spotting for my group, no. If I'm a diver and someone else in my group has looked and decided to go, i'm not gonna stop in the door after the base has exited and change my mind. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #6 February 1, 2006 If I can't see the ground, I'm not going. We were watching a glider fly just under some industrial haze while our jump plane was in the sky and had absolutely no idea it was there until manifest contacted them. It's not the spot that concerns me as much as other traffic. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #7 February 1, 2006 We are 45 minutes north of Logan airport, 30 minutes from Manchester, and all of 5 miles from an avaition college and Boire Field in Nashua......... No f'ing way I'm getting out in those conditions. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #8 February 2, 2006 My DZ has cloud clearance, so we are allowed to jump. Of course there is the risk of a bad spot, but personally I will jumps if the other conditions are favourable, such as wind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #9 February 2, 2006 Depends on the DZ and if I know where I am.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #10 February 2, 2006 QuoteDepends on the DZ and if I know where I am. If I'm at West Tennessee under those conditions and jumping out of Mullins King Air, no problem. Anywhere else, I might be a bit nervous and would use discretion. Along the coast or near big bodies of water? No fucking way."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
plummeteer 0 #11 February 2, 2006 How do you know it's clear under 7000 ft.? I don't jump unless I see a hole coming up that I think I can make it thru. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propilot 0 #12 February 2, 2006 If you indeed cannot see the ground and you are in the U.S., you should not jump. Put yourself in your pilots shoes. He has invested thousands and thousands of dollars and many years..indeed much of his life into a career that you have the power to F up. The FARs say that no pilot in command may allow you to do what you described. All it takes is another plane to query approach why there are bodies dropping through a cloud layer...guess what...your pilot now has a record that will probably prevent, and at the least slow down his advancement in his career. He will likely loose his ratings, need to spend thousnads to regain them, and probably also wait 6mos to a year or more before he can try and get them again. That means no money during that time. How about I come to your work and f up your livelihood? How would you like to go from making 20K a year to even less when you loose your job because you are no longer licensed and must work at Mcdonalds? It is not a joke and it is not cool and it is not acceptable and it is not safe to jump through a solid could deck. I dont mean to lecture, but dont risk my career so that you can get one more jump. I cant believe that the poll is favoring jumping. I hope none of you are at my dz. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #13 February 2, 2006 If you voted yes to jumping through clouds , this is why we do water training for B licenses. Lake Erie Incident, August 27th 1967, 4k-6k cloud deck, 72 degree water, 16 dead You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #14 February 2, 2006 When it's a wingsuit dive and the clouds are at 3k, it's becomes a very interesting dive indeed... even more so when it's the first jump you've ever done at the DZ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdrejhon 8 #15 February 2, 2006 I jump through "industrial haze" at certain dropzones, but I often modify my dive plan on it. For example, no tracking through industrial haze if it can be avoided. (A lot of my solo jumps are tracking practice jumps). At dropzones where only 4 people are jumping at a time, over sparse airspace, it's very interesting scenery during freefall. I HAVE ridden the plane down with a whole plane load in a CASA though, but generally as a rule of thumb -- if most people are exiting, I'm probably exiting. I do my best attempt to check the spot, and if I trust the pilot's spotting history. I always monitor the sky when going to altitude, and often modify my pull altitude to a good safety margin while enroute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TrickyDicky 0 #16 February 2, 2006 QuoteIts a fact of life in the UK, but our rules are different from those found in the States. We have to be able to see the LZ from opening point so we can jump through quite thick 'industrial haze' as long as we open where we can see the LZ. Not true. In the UK we have to be able to see opening point AND LZ from Exit point, and it must be clear in between. But luckily, often when there is cloud cover, a hole opens up just at the right moment to see the ground. From the OPs manual: "3.1. Cloud Parachutists may not leave the aircraft if, at the point of exit, the ground between the opening point and the intended landing area is not visible." UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Adriandavies 0 #17 February 2, 2006 Doh. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #18 February 2, 2006 What was the GPS accuracy in 1967? I know, I know, the same human radar error that led them to think they were in a good place is the same human GPS error that could do the same again today. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sweep 0 #19 February 2, 2006 When I was abroad recently I saw a group of wingsuiters go on a 21K lift when the cloud cover was solid (total 8/8 no holes at all) from 4K - 5K. Some were still coming back two hours later. At the same DZ there was a 28 way jumping in the same conditions - cloud right through breakoff. Doh! I have only jumped once when I couldn't see the ground and I doubt I will again. Besides the spotting and air traffic consideration, tracking through a raincloud is exceptionally sore on the face. Sweep---- Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #20 February 2, 2006 QuoteHow do you know it's clear under 7000 ft.? I don't jump unless I see a hole coming up that I think I can make it thru. On the way up you can determine cloud layers, or at least here where the clouds tend to be very structured in that sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #21 February 2, 2006 QuoteI cant believe that the poll is favoring jumping. I hope none of you are at my dz. Relax Francis. You know how many jump pilots have told me just to get out in those conditions? I'm not endangering anyone's career. I will not exit an A/C unless the pilot has approved it or the wings are comming off. That said, conditions that are maginal might be ok for me, but if I'm with a student, then things change.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #22 February 2, 2006 QuotePut yourself in your pilots shoes. He has invested thousands and thousands of dollars and many years..indeed much of his life into a career that you have the power to F up. The FARs say that no pilot in command may allow you to do what you described. If the pilot allows the jump, he (or she) has no one to blame but himself if the jump gets him into trouble with the FAA. If he can't see the cloud cover, or has no knowledge of the FARs, he has no business flying. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Weichkeks 0 #23 February 2, 2006 Here in Germany in order to jump "earth view" is required. Its illegal to jump w/o seeing your landing point. That beeing said it's obviously common practice for a lot of jumpers to jump anyway. With my 50 jumps i wasn't in such a situation yet. If already some other jumpers jumped right before me i'd probably go with the flow i guess... On the other hand after reading this thread i'd probably think twice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 8 #24 February 2, 2006 QuoteYou're at 13,500 feet. Green light is on, door is open. GPS is being used to do the spotting. A thick cloud of industrial haze has moved... Remember... GPS tells you exactly where you are... it doesn't do dick about where you want to be ... and in the U.S. it is illegal to jump through clouds... so I would never intentionally do that... and that's my story and I'm stickin' to it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EricTheRed 0 #25 February 3, 2006 Yes, and I think that 90% of the people that voted no are lying.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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mdrejhon 8 #15 February 2, 2006 I jump through "industrial haze" at certain dropzones, but I often modify my dive plan on it. For example, no tracking through industrial haze if it can be avoided. (A lot of my solo jumps are tracking practice jumps). At dropzones where only 4 people are jumping at a time, over sparse airspace, it's very interesting scenery during freefall. I HAVE ridden the plane down with a whole plane load in a CASA though, but generally as a rule of thumb -- if most people are exiting, I'm probably exiting. I do my best attempt to check the spot, and if I trust the pilot's spotting history. I always monitor the sky when going to altitude, and often modify my pull altitude to a good safety margin while enroute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrickyDicky 0 #16 February 2, 2006 QuoteIts a fact of life in the UK, but our rules are different from those found in the States. We have to be able to see the LZ from opening point so we can jump through quite thick 'industrial haze' as long as we open where we can see the LZ. Not true. In the UK we have to be able to see opening point AND LZ from Exit point, and it must be clear in between. But luckily, often when there is cloud cover, a hole opens up just at the right moment to see the ground. From the OPs manual: "3.1. Cloud Parachutists may not leave the aircraft if, at the point of exit, the ground between the opening point and the intended landing area is not visible." UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adriandavies 0 #17 February 2, 2006 Doh. Thanks for the clarification. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #18 February 2, 2006 What was the GPS accuracy in 1967? I know, I know, the same human radar error that led them to think they were in a good place is the same human GPS error that could do the same again today. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sweep 0 #19 February 2, 2006 When I was abroad recently I saw a group of wingsuiters go on a 21K lift when the cloud cover was solid (total 8/8 no holes at all) from 4K - 5K. Some were still coming back two hours later. At the same DZ there was a 28 way jumping in the same conditions - cloud right through breakoff. Doh! I have only jumped once when I couldn't see the ground and I doubt I will again. Besides the spotting and air traffic consideration, tracking through a raincloud is exceptionally sore on the face. Sweep---- Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #20 February 2, 2006 QuoteHow do you know it's clear under 7000 ft.? I don't jump unless I see a hole coming up that I think I can make it thru. On the way up you can determine cloud layers, or at least here where the clouds tend to be very structured in that sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #21 February 2, 2006 QuoteI cant believe that the poll is favoring jumping. I hope none of you are at my dz. Relax Francis. You know how many jump pilots have told me just to get out in those conditions? I'm not endangering anyone's career. I will not exit an A/C unless the pilot has approved it or the wings are comming off. That said, conditions that are maginal might be ok for me, but if I'm with a student, then things change.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #22 February 2, 2006 QuotePut yourself in your pilots shoes. He has invested thousands and thousands of dollars and many years..indeed much of his life into a career that you have the power to F up. The FARs say that no pilot in command may allow you to do what you described. If the pilot allows the jump, he (or she) has no one to blame but himself if the jump gets him into trouble with the FAA. If he can't see the cloud cover, or has no knowledge of the FARs, he has no business flying. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Weichkeks 0 #23 February 2, 2006 Here in Germany in order to jump "earth view" is required. Its illegal to jump w/o seeing your landing point. That beeing said it's obviously common practice for a lot of jumpers to jump anyway. With my 50 jumps i wasn't in such a situation yet. If already some other jumpers jumped right before me i'd probably go with the flow i guess... On the other hand after reading this thread i'd probably think twice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #24 February 2, 2006 QuoteYou're at 13,500 feet. Green light is on, door is open. GPS is being used to do the spotting. A thick cloud of industrial haze has moved... Remember... GPS tells you exactly where you are... it doesn't do dick about where you want to be ... and in the U.S. it is illegal to jump through clouds... so I would never intentionally do that... and that's my story and I'm stickin' to it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #25 February 3, 2006 Yes, and I think that 90% of the people that voted no are lying.illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
