billvon 2,403
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>But just because Its not on the net it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Right, but it's even worse evidence that it did.
> and we've reported on at least one where it was seen as a factor in the accident.
I strongly suspect it was the case I mentioned, since it created a huge stink before Fliteline responded to it and examined the evidence (the gear and photos of the scene.)
>Unfortunately, at that point the primary pilot chute comes free. It goes up
>and wraps around the bagged reserve, creating a bag lock.
Is it better to die due to a horseshoe mal than a bag lock? In any case, the catapult is designed to pull the canopy out of the bag BEFORE it starts pulling on the main PC; that's why it's 1/3 of the way up the bridle, rather than halfway. Could it clear at exactly the same time as the catapult starts to work, and then additionally manage to launch _through_ the line groups and tie off the reserve? Of course. With enough imagination anything's possible.
>Also the "Y" shaped bridle, with a pilot chute at each end, stands no
> chance whatever of making it past a horseshoe malfunction. It's like
> launching a grappeling hook into the mess above you"
I agree, which is why the catapult does not use a Y-shaped bridle.
>But if the catapult was such a good system why isn't it used by
>anyone?
Because it's patented.
> And why is it that Fliteline that went out of buisness, then back in
> buisiness not using it?
Fliteline went out of business when Kat Folger sued Mick and Dave over her husband's death. A suspension line on his main got stuck under the lip of a grommet in the main pack tray, causing an unclearable main in tow. The reserve PC's did not clear the mess.
>Since you admit that you don't know how it work's, then why did you feel
> like you should question, what I was only observing.
Because I don't learn unless I ask questions; you seemed to have very strong opinions on a system, which I assumed meant you knew something about it (or the reflex, for that matter.) Feel free to not answer if you don't want to.
>Hmm Can you say typo? You know what I meant I think you are trying
> way too hard to make me look bad when all I was trying to do initally
> was let anyone that wasn't available to go to the PIA know what I saw
>It was not my intenton to get into a war of words, Ideas with you.
Sorry, I didn't mean to get into a war with you. This sounds like an interesting system, one that could potentially speed up reserve deployments. As I mentioned, the entire system (including the reserve) has to be taken into account before a good comparison with other systems is possible, and the system evaluated against others (i.e. is the added complexity worth the additional X feet of reserve flight?) It might well turn out to be a worthwhile addition to the safety equipment we have available to us.
I guess I just found it odd that you would so readily trash a system you know little about (the catapult) while at the same time pushing another new reserve system so strongly, again one that you admit knowing little about. Most of my questions were aimed at trying to figure out your logic there. Sorry if it came across as a 'war of words.'
>How do I say this and not upset you? What a student is taught rarely
> happen's.
Hmm. In my experience they do what they are taught, even when things go to hell. We've had students start spinning on their backs, then watched as they threw off both JM's. Three seconds later, as instructed, they pulled. We've had students cut away as they were getting dragged at 15mph down the field, and have had students cut away succesfully from literally dozens of mals from high speed to lineover. We've even had students be unable to open their mains and open their reserves instead.
With good instruction students do what you teach them to do. If they didn't a lot more of them would die.
> Do you really tell your student's to put more nylon over their head if
>they cant cutaway before they reach 1000 ft?
Heck yes. If they are ever in freefall at 1000 feet, no matter what else is going on or what's over their head, pull the reserve. If they're under a main and they aren't going to survive the landing, pull the reserve. It is the most important thing they can do at that point, and the thing that will most likely save their lives.
Landing under two canopies is often survivable, landing under a high speed mal rarely is.
> But if you can loose the lineover/linetwist safely and fly a safe reserve
> wouldn't you rather choose that option?
I would, down to about 800 feet; a student who may be slow on his procedures, or who takes 4 seconds to read his altimeter and act on the information, may not. It is safer to open your reserve at 200 feet into a lineover mal than cut away at 100 and land under a partially inflated reserve. Students need more buffer than a few hundred feet, which is less than a second at terminal.
Keep in mind that a student opens at 4500 feet; his cutaway hard deck is 2500 feet. If he's still having a problem at 1000 feet and he hasn't been able to solve it, via cutting away, finding his main handle, dealing with a stuck riser, dealing with an entanglement etc it's time to try your last resort; he has less than three seconds (worst case) before he loses that last option.
>I am sure that you don't tell your student's to pull their reserve under
> 1000ft, if there is a problem with their main and you just misworded
> thing's.
Nope. Would you honestly tell a student to consider cutting away a mal below 1000 feet? Would you honestly tell a more experienced friend to cut away at 400? I wouldn't.
Right, but it's even worse evidence that it did.
> and we've reported on at least one where it was seen as a factor in the accident.
I strongly suspect it was the case I mentioned, since it created a huge stink before Fliteline responded to it and examined the evidence (the gear and photos of the scene.)
>Unfortunately, at that point the primary pilot chute comes free. It goes up
>and wraps around the bagged reserve, creating a bag lock.
Is it better to die due to a horseshoe mal than a bag lock? In any case, the catapult is designed to pull the canopy out of the bag BEFORE it starts pulling on the main PC; that's why it's 1/3 of the way up the bridle, rather than halfway. Could it clear at exactly the same time as the catapult starts to work, and then additionally manage to launch _through_ the line groups and tie off the reserve? Of course. With enough imagination anything's possible.
>Also the "Y" shaped bridle, with a pilot chute at each end, stands no
> chance whatever of making it past a horseshoe malfunction. It's like
> launching a grappeling hook into the mess above you"
I agree, which is why the catapult does not use a Y-shaped bridle.
>But if the catapult was such a good system why isn't it used by
>anyone?
Because it's patented.
> And why is it that Fliteline that went out of buisness, then back in
> buisiness not using it?
Fliteline went out of business when Kat Folger sued Mick and Dave over her husband's death. A suspension line on his main got stuck under the lip of a grommet in the main pack tray, causing an unclearable main in tow. The reserve PC's did not clear the mess.
>Since you admit that you don't know how it work's, then why did you feel
> like you should question, what I was only observing.
Because I don't learn unless I ask questions; you seemed to have very strong opinions on a system, which I assumed meant you knew something about it (or the reflex, for that matter.) Feel free to not answer if you don't want to.
>Hmm Can you say typo? You know what I meant I think you are trying
> way too hard to make me look bad when all I was trying to do initally
> was let anyone that wasn't available to go to the PIA know what I saw
>It was not my intenton to get into a war of words, Ideas with you.
Sorry, I didn't mean to get into a war with you. This sounds like an interesting system, one that could potentially speed up reserve deployments. As I mentioned, the entire system (including the reserve) has to be taken into account before a good comparison with other systems is possible, and the system evaluated against others (i.e. is the added complexity worth the additional X feet of reserve flight?) It might well turn out to be a worthwhile addition to the safety equipment we have available to us.
I guess I just found it odd that you would so readily trash a system you know little about (the catapult) while at the same time pushing another new reserve system so strongly, again one that you admit knowing little about. Most of my questions were aimed at trying to figure out your logic there. Sorry if it came across as a 'war of words.'
>How do I say this and not upset you? What a student is taught rarely
> happen's.
Hmm. In my experience they do what they are taught, even when things go to hell. We've had students start spinning on their backs, then watched as they threw off both JM's. Three seconds later, as instructed, they pulled. We've had students cut away as they were getting dragged at 15mph down the field, and have had students cut away succesfully from literally dozens of mals from high speed to lineover. We've even had students be unable to open their mains and open their reserves instead.
With good instruction students do what you teach them to do. If they didn't a lot more of them would die.
> Do you really tell your student's to put more nylon over their head if
>they cant cutaway before they reach 1000 ft?
Heck yes. If they are ever in freefall at 1000 feet, no matter what else is going on or what's over their head, pull the reserve. If they're under a main and they aren't going to survive the landing, pull the reserve. It is the most important thing they can do at that point, and the thing that will most likely save their lives.
Landing under two canopies is often survivable, landing under a high speed mal rarely is.
> But if you can loose the lineover/linetwist safely and fly a safe reserve
> wouldn't you rather choose that option?
I would, down to about 800 feet; a student who may be slow on his procedures, or who takes 4 seconds to read his altimeter and act on the information, may not. It is safer to open your reserve at 200 feet into a lineover mal than cut away at 100 and land under a partially inflated reserve. Students need more buffer than a few hundred feet, which is less than a second at terminal.
Keep in mind that a student opens at 4500 feet; his cutaway hard deck is 2500 feet. If he's still having a problem at 1000 feet and he hasn't been able to solve it, via cutting away, finding his main handle, dealing with a stuck riser, dealing with an entanglement etc it's time to try your last resort; he has less than three seconds (worst case) before he loses that last option.
>I am sure that you don't tell your student's to pull their reserve under
> 1000ft, if there is a problem with their main and you just misworded
> thing's.
Nope. Would you honestly tell a student to consider cutting away a mal below 1000 feet? Would you honestly tell a more experienced friend to cut away at 400? I wouldn't.
QuoteFor instance, if the RSL riser released prematurely, it pulled the reserve bag right into the still attached side of the main canopy
So how is this solved? Without seeing the system or pictures of it, it's difficult to visualize how it works. Is the Skyhook attached to one riser only, as was mentioned in an earlier post?
Are there pictures available of the system?
cpoxon 0
QuoteThe Aerodyne was a modified three ring. The middle ring is elongated like an oval with a divider bar in the middle.
Small picture on Peter Draper's site as part of his Syposium review
riggerrob 558
Skyhook:
Bill Booth's most recent contribution to this style of RSL is the Collins lanyard.
If a skydiver wearing a Skyhook-equipped Vector cuts away from a partially inflated main, the RSL (attached to the right main riser) pulls the Collins lanyard (to ensure that the left release cable is pulled), then the RSL pulls the reserve ripcord, finally the RSL pulls on the Skyhook (a stainless steel hook sewn to the freebag bridle) to lift the freebag off the jumper's bag.
If there is no main out, pulling the reserve ripcord (or scaring your Cypres) results in a normal reserve deployment, as if the Skyhook was never installed. In this scenario, the reserve bridle disconnects at the Skyhook.
Basically, it is a race between the main riser and the reserve pilotchute. Whichever pulls first lifts the freebag off the jumper's back.
Judging from USPA's 2002 fatality report, at least 2 more jumpers would be alive if they had worn some sort of RSL. Booth's Skyhook just happens to be the quickest RSL on today's market.
Bill Booth's most recent contribution to this style of RSL is the Collins lanyard.
If a skydiver wearing a Skyhook-equipped Vector cuts away from a partially inflated main, the RSL (attached to the right main riser) pulls the Collins lanyard (to ensure that the left release cable is pulled), then the RSL pulls the reserve ripcord, finally the RSL pulls on the Skyhook (a stainless steel hook sewn to the freebag bridle) to lift the freebag off the jumper's bag.
If there is no main out, pulling the reserve ripcord (or scaring your Cypres) results in a normal reserve deployment, as if the Skyhook was never installed. In this scenario, the reserve bridle disconnects at the Skyhook.
Basically, it is a race between the main riser and the reserve pilotchute. Whichever pulls first lifts the freebag off the jumper's back.
Judging from USPA's 2002 fatality report, at least 2 more jumpers would be alive if they had worn some sort of RSL. Booth's Skyhook just happens to be the quickest RSL on today's market.
riggerrob 558
councilman, May I suggest two topics for speakers at the 2005 PIA Symposium?
International Riggers' Standardization Program
Hand-Mounted Video for Tandem Instructors
International Riggers' Standardization Program
Hand-Mounted Video for Tandem Instructors
riggerrob 558
My recollections of PIA Symposium 2003:
Military
Convergence
Skyhook
Swimming pool
Good weather
Glen Bangs contribution to 2 squares out study
Travelling faster than my luggage.
Military presence was way up at this year's Symposium, which is good. The military industrial complex should pay its way in our sporting sandbox. It also means that manufacturers will be less sensitive to the mood swings of skydiver purchasing patterns.
Convergence. It seems that skydiving manufacturers are converging on common patterns. They seem to be converging on two container patterns and a handful of canopy designs aimed at a handful of niches. Even the Russians and East Germans seem to be copying Vectors.
Though the Czechs introduced a new AAD that sort of looks like a Cypres, but all the components are in one box nestled in the pack tray.
The sly old fox Bill Booth is not resting on his laurels. The inventor of the hand-deploy pilotchute and 3-Ring release just introduced the Skyhook - the fastest RSL on the market.
The Adams Mark Hotel has a fitness room and swimming pool on the roof. My fondest memories of the Symposium were swimming laps as the sun rose.
Weather was great in Jacksonville. Temperatures varied from frost in the mornings to 75 degrees in the afternoons. Floridians may have grumbled about the frost, but it was heaven for skydivers from more northerly climates.
At the final banquet, we got to tease USPA's new President, Glen Bangs about his contribution to the two squares out study. To Mr. Bang's credit, his main was out before he scared his Cypres.
Travelling to the Symposium was a long, drawn out process, with way too many frivolous security checks, but I cannot complain too loudly. I travelled so fast that I arrived in JAcksonville way ahead of my luggage! Ha! Ha!
Military
Convergence
Skyhook
Swimming pool
Good weather
Glen Bangs contribution to 2 squares out study
Travelling faster than my luggage.
Military presence was way up at this year's Symposium, which is good. The military industrial complex should pay its way in our sporting sandbox. It also means that manufacturers will be less sensitive to the mood swings of skydiver purchasing patterns.
Convergence. It seems that skydiving manufacturers are converging on common patterns. They seem to be converging on two container patterns and a handful of canopy designs aimed at a handful of niches. Even the Russians and East Germans seem to be copying Vectors.
Though the Czechs introduced a new AAD that sort of looks like a Cypres, but all the components are in one box nestled in the pack tray.
The sly old fox Bill Booth is not resting on his laurels. The inventor of the hand-deploy pilotchute and 3-Ring release just introduced the Skyhook - the fastest RSL on the market.
The Adams Mark Hotel has a fitness room and swimming pool on the roof. My fondest memories of the Symposium were swimming laps as the sun rose.
Weather was great in Jacksonville. Temperatures varied from frost in the mornings to 75 degrees in the afternoons. Floridians may have grumbled about the frost, but it was heaven for skydivers from more northerly climates.
At the final banquet, we got to tease USPA's new President, Glen Bangs about his contribution to the two squares out study. To Mr. Bang's credit, his main was out before he scared his Cypres.
Travelling to the Symposium was a long, drawn out process, with way too many frivolous security checks, but I cannot complain too loudly. I travelled so fast that I arrived in JAcksonville way ahead of my luggage! Ha! Ha!
councilman24 36
And which one are you volunteering to speak on?
BTW, speaker presentations are not for selling new products. Booths are.
As of right now I'll be doing the speaker schedule for the next symposium. If anyone would like to volunteer, or suggest a speaker we should approach, please contact me. It's never to early to collect ideas.
Thanks,
Terry
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE
billbooth 10
There will be pictures of the Skyhook system in action at www.relativeworkshop.com by Wednesday evening.
Craig 0
QuoteQuoteEhhhhhh HHHEMMMM
the biggest bitcher about our last Mindwarp design, and not even an honorable mention for the COOL Bonehead Display.................
Bastard!
Peace and
Love jeanie
You KNOW I told you guys in person that I loved the newly redesigned, non-"penis" looking MindWarp!
It was a great fix. Speaking of your booth: me and Steve were hanging out a couple of nights ago.
Chuckie
So, when will we get to see this new design? I just turned my old Bonehead external audible into a camera helmet, so, I need to get a new helmet (minus the "penis" look
) for those jumps where I don't want a camera hanging off the side. Anyone have any pics?
skydiverek 55
QuoteThere will be pictures of the Skyhook system in action at www.relativeworkshop.com by Wednesday evening.
They are there now - just to let everybody know.
billbooth 10
More pictures will be up by later today. Bill Booth
skydiverek 55
QuoteMore pictures will be up by later today. Bill Booth
If you could post the video on your website, that would be great!
billbooth 10
As soon as I can get the video compressed enough, I will put it up on the website.
Thanks Bill,
I currently do not use a RSL but this looks interesting. How about a close-up of the system?
How does the cam thing release the RSL if there is no (main) conopy out when the reserve is fired?
E
I currently do not use a RSL but this looks interesting. How about a close-up of the system?
How does the cam thing release the RSL if there is no (main) conopy out when the reserve is fired?
E
billbooth 10
For a close up look, go to www.relativeworkshop.com, and click "News".
the skyhook looks very cool, but there is one thing I don't understand. with the rsl activation, how does the reserve pin get pulled? does the rsl lanyard have a "y" junction?
________________________________________________________
Abbie drove me to Idaho and all I got was this lousy sigline
Abbie drove me to Idaho and all I got was this lousy sigline
billbooth 10
You got it. The Skyhook lanyard branches off from the RSL just before it enters the container.
Opie 0
cpoxon 0
QuoteNo,
The Aerodyne was a modified three ring. The middle ring is elongated like an oval with a divider bar in the middle.
Found this technical article with diagrams and pictures on the Aerodyne website
Because of the nature of all the quotes in your message, I'm not sure but are you saying Fliteline is back in business, and not using the catapult?
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
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