BOD meeting notes by Mike Turoff for the Feb. 06 meeting

[bmcd308 0]

The whole idea that you need to "see the elephant" before you can teach something is silly.

I am a low jump coach that everyone complains about. I have stopped weighing in on most of these threads, because there really is no use. But since this one touches the limited issue of whether you need a cutaway to teach EPs, I will make a post.

I used to review EPs with student prior to my having a cutaway. Then I had one. You want to know how much that changed about what I say to new people?

Nothing. Nothing changed. I still tell them to look grab look grab peel punch peel punch.

I guess what is a little different is when they ask me what it feels like to do it for real, I get to tell them that it feels a little like when you think you are going to burp but you actually throw up a little and then everything is ok. I bet that helps them a lot.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[grue 1]

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Students are our future.Help keep them in the sport.Jump with them for free.


Our sport is being raped and robbed one coach jump at a time.


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This is one of the reasons I'm planning on getting my coach rating in April. My DZ is pretty tiny, and it can be sort of a pain to try and find enough 2 instructors to go on a load to jump with two students who are on freefall. I'd love to be able to be able to help when someone's in a situation like I found myself in quite a bit: Three students on the DZ wanting to work on their jumps, but only one instructor. Sure, I can't teach someone the fine points of a head down foot dock, but if someone just needs somebody to jump with 'em and verify they're turning 90 degrees one way, and then back to heading, or need someoen to dock on? Why not be that guy?

EDIT: and no, I wouldn't be charging. I typically jump solo at my DZ anyway because only a few ppeople have any real interest in freeflying. Might as well go jump with somebody who needs help.

cavete terrae.

[Eule 0]

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As a teaching professional for the last 35 years, I should point out that a 3 day coach course is not
remotely adequate to make anyone a teacher. [....] This claim that someone who passed a coach
course knows how to teach is laughable.

Maybe you just wanted to add to the thread and replied to my post because it was handy, but if you were
specifically replying to my post, I don't think I made that claim. From my experiences outside of skydiving,
I think that having some kind of formal instruction in how to teach is better than having no formal
instruction in how to teach. But I don't think I said that a three-day class makes someone a teacher.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[davelepka 4]

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no, I wouldn't be charging. I typically jump solo at my DZ anyway because only a few ppeople have any real interest in freeflying. Might as well go jump with somebody who needs help.

You say that now. What happens when they want you to do ten coach jumps in a weekend. Dirt diving, jumping, de-briefing, packing, dirt diving, jumping, de-briefing, packing, dirt diving, jumping, de-briefing and packing.

When it's all done, you haven't had a minute to yourself, and you still have to settle up for $200+ worth of jumps with manifest.

Sounds like fun, huh?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

He doesn't have to do them all.If there were more people like this it would be like....oh yeah,it would be like the old days.Like when the experienced jumper taught the new jumpers.


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[skydived19006 4]

I try to keep my student jump prices down as much as I can, and charge $60 for a Coach Jump. When it’s two slots to altitude at $19 each, $10 to the Coach, $5 to repack, that leaves $7 for gear rental. I (DZO) obviously keep more when we put out 3 IADs at 4,000’ for the same $60, but other than for when we run a FJC that seldom happens.

I’ve looked at pricing at DZs that teach AFF/AFP/Tandem Progression, which generally advertise the cost of the first 7 to 10 jumps, but add in the remaining Coach supervised jumps the student will reach $3000 fairly easily. I can put a student up for the required 30 jumps (5 non freefall jumps) for under $2000. I’ll be the first to admit that the AFF/AFP student will most generally be a better skydiver when he gets his “A”, but my guy can make another 50 jumps on his own gear for the difference. Which is better 25 jumps on an AFF program, or 80 training SL/IAD, still a matter of opinion.

Oh, but you say “who’s going to “waste” their jump with this new 30 jump A license guy. Well again, at an SL/IAD DZ the student has most likely been jumping for 3 months or more, and unless he’s an absolute and total ass hole, has befriended everybody at the small, friendly, slow pace, one Cessna DZ. So just about everyone is willing to go jump with the new guy.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[davelepka 4]

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He doesn't have to do them all.If there were more people like this it would be like....oh yeah,it would be like the old days.Like when the experienced jumper taught the new jumpers

It's pipe dream. Not everyone had soemone to jump with and not everyone was taught anything useful.

Even if it was a shared thing, people don't realize the huge step between going to the DZ, and working at the DZ.

It's work when you can't get on the fun dive your friends are planning. It's work when manifest tells you how to spend your time. It's work when you have to jump with a student you don't like. It' swork when you don't feel like doing it, but manifest needs a coach on the next load, and you're the only choice.

These are the realities of working on the DZ. To suggest that someone do it for free is a long shot, but a maybe. To suggest that someone do it at their own cost is delusional.

[kelpdiver 2]

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You say that now. What happens when they want you to do ten coach jumps in a weekend. Dirt diving, jumping, de-briefing, packing, dirt diving, jumping, de-briefing, packing, dirt diving, jumping, de-briefing and packing.

he said he was at a tiny DZ. Seems unlikely they're going to slam him with a full weekend of coach jumps.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Sounds like you hate your job.Why don't you find another one and make your skydiving fun again.

It's not delusional.There are people all over the country that have been restricted from jumping with the new people and you just hit the nail on the head.It's the money.It's revenue to the DZ and the staff and they pushed it through in the name of safety.Myself and a few others are still waiting for the stats to prove we have a safer sport because of the coaches rating.


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[shaggio 0]

Hey spence. I couldnt agree more with you. I hate it that it is so much money to gain knowlege in this sport! When I was starting I passed level 7 experienced skydivers took me under there wing and taught me what I needed to know FOR FREE.

So, let me ask you this. This winter I went and took the coaches class. Due to weather I never completed the jumps. I went through it because I thought it was time to give a little back. 90% of my reasoning was that if I saw somone struggling it would be "legal" for me to go jump with them, possibly pass along some knowledge and pat them on the back at the same time. With this new rule, do I even have to bother finishing the rating???? The way I read it is only if I want to get paid to do a coach jump. Is that correct?? Right now I could give two shits about getting paid for that.

On a side note, there are still DZ's out there that will pass along knowlege/skill sets for free. I have to give BIG props to the farm. I am headed down next weekend to work on some swooping skills. Without even knowing me they said "pay for your slot, we would be happy to teach you". You can bet that a nice case of beer is going to go along for the ride with me.

I say, bring back beer rules for what they were intended to do...pass along survival skills and gain friendships without bribing people to jump with you.

[wmw999 2,123]

I can remember having this kind of discussion when Level 8 jumps were first proposed as being part of a standard progression, rather than just "after you finished AFF." It's not a very new discussion.

There are always people (most women, guys who fit in, people who are there a lot and not obnoxious, etc) who will be taken under wings. And there will always be people who aren't (argumentative, only there occasionally, bowling balls who can only fall with one person, etc). Such is the nature of people.

Some DZs have more of a helping culture than others. But one way that we all can help is to donate our time -- then there won't be an onerous amount of newbie-jumping dumped on any single person, who will then have time for jumps more to their liking.

And some DZs are in it for the money, and attract people who are in it for the money.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,625]

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He doesn't have to do them all.If there were more people like this it would be like....oh yeah,it would be like the old days.Like when the experienced jumper taught the new jumpers

It's pipe dream. Not everyone had soemone to jump with and not everyone was taught anything useful.

Even if it was a shared thing, people don't realize the huge step between going to the DZ, and working at the DZ.

It's work when you can't get on the fun dive your friends are planning. It's work when manifest tells you how to spend your time. It's work when you have to jump with a student you don't like. It' swork when you don't feel like doing it, but manifest needs a coach on the next load, and you're the only choice.

These are the realities of working on the DZ. To suggest that someone do it for free is a long shot, but a maybe. To suggest that someone do it at their own cost is delusional.

I don't think there's anything in the rule change to prevent coaches from jumping with newbies, or to force "D" licensees to make jumps they don't want to make.

I know several very experienced (like 5,000+ jumps, nationals RW medalist) but unrated skydivers who used to jump with newbies (they jumped with me when I had a handful of jumps) who were prevented from doing so over the last few years. I think it's great that they can do this again.

Given the choice between an unrated National medalist and a 120 jump brand new coach, I know which I 'd bet on to give the better learning experience.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydived19006 4]

I did a little checking in the SIM (granted, I didn’t reread the whole thing), and I could not find reference to “Self Supervision Student” (I also did not have handy a copy of the IRM). So, my question is; when does a student become “Self Supervision”? Is this information in the SIM? The SIM after all is our main reference, we abide by the BSRs, all other information sources (IRM) are just supplements. I need an answer that applies to Static Line/IAD progression.

I assume that at least a couple of the BSRs will be rewritten, or added. It would be nice if the USPA could “push out” these rule changes through an S&T news letter or such.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[Skymonkey2 0]

Cat E on page 63, states " A USPA Instructor in your discipline may clear you to jump without supervision in freefall. Key word here is Instructor. Cat F, page 73, To begin while supervising your self in freefall, you practice the basic delta position, the firts step toward a flat track. ect.......... In the IRM there is more detail.

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well

[davelepka 4]

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Sounds like you hate your job.Why don't you find another one and make your skydiving fun again.

All of the things I mentioned aren't a big deal when you're getting paid to skydive.

I can only imagine putting up with it for free.

Having to pay, and put up with it, is out of the question.

[skydived19006 4]

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Cat E on page 63, states " A USPA Instructor in your discipline may clear you to jump without supervision in freefall. Key word here is Instructor. Cat F, page 73, To begin while supervising your self in freefall, you practice the basic delta position, the firts step toward a flat track. ect.......... In the IRM there is more detail.

Thanks Kip!

So, would it be your openion that an Instructor would still be required to supervise from the airplane? That's how I read the current rules.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[CSpenceFLY 1]

But there are people willing to do it and we should not be stopped just to provide job security for DZ staff.


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[Skymonkey2 0]

In the IRM, it states that a coach or Instructor should but it is not required to supervise the student in the plane and in freefall. It is to help the student with spotting, load orginizing, which is the proper seperation between groups, ect. I just talked to a dz in Green Bay WI that is a 1 cessna dz and they totally disagree with the BOD on the two subjects in this forum. And they will not let non-rated people work with students. If there is anything I can help you with just drop a line........

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well

[davelepka 4]

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But there are people willing to do it and we should not be stopped just to provide job security for DZ staff

I never suggested that. What I suggested was that alot of the 'good intentions' that people have will run into the realities of working on the DZ.

It's not that working on a DZ is so bad, it's just that when you make a commitment to a certain job, you need to keep that commitment. DZ are working on a limited amount of daylight, and usually trying to cram as much business as possible into the weekend days. For this reason, it gets busy, and hectic, and you as an individual loose your ability to pick and choose.

If you have an injury or illness, then you can simply bow out, but otherwise, you need to do your part, and be a part of the team.

Doing it as a replacment for coaches means it HAS to get done. It' snot optional, and expecting people to reliably do that, at their own cost, seems a little far fetched.

I completely agree that if a qualifed jumper wants to do it for free, and wants to do the same job a coach would charge for, they should be able to.

I know of coaches who waive their fees for certain students. It happpens, but not all the time, and thats my point. Without the coach program, newbies are dependent on the generosity of qualified jumpers to have some one to jump with. When that runs out, what are they left with?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I have never suggested replacing or doing away with coaches.


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[davelepka 4]

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I have never suggested replacing or doing away with coaches.

Do we disagree on anything? I'm starting to think no.

What are we even talking about?

[kallend 1,625]

Try once again:

Do you have any actual data to show that novices jumping with "D" licensed skydivers prior to the ISP had any more accidents than novices jumping with coaches after the ISP, or is this discussion just blowing hot air?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydived19006 4]

Where I came from our students were "students" until becoming at least "A qualified", which back then meant having everything on the "A" card checked off. Our students were required to jump with Jump-masters/Instructors, and their jumps were considered "student jumps".

So to answer your question regarding "back in the day", students were not allowed to jump with just anybody then either (at least where I came from).

I do understand that the term "neophyte" was used with regard to AFF students, but I can't say how they were supposed to have been supervised.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[CSpenceFLY 1]

My beef is with the system that keeps qualified(by this I mean the DZO or S&TA knows their ability,most DZs are a small enviroment you know) licenced jumpers from jumping with non-licenced jumpers in the name of safety to create revenue for staff and coaches for the most part doubling the cost of the A licence while not improving safety by a measurable level and making it cost prohibitive for some people to remain in the sport.

Hows that for a nut shell.


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[Skymonkey2 0]

Its like every else in life if you want something you make time to do it, if some one wants to work with younger skydivers, they will find a way to get there ratings and if they want to donate there time they have the option. But just to give someone the right to work with students, with out showing they have a vested interest is wrong.........

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well