DENIED ACCESS

[idoru99 0]

I just checked the website...seems strange to me that we don't fly a 182, but that's the only ac mentioned. The staff pictured is also no one who works there. I'm wondering if the webmaster got a few things mixed up between SMB and Greg's other dropzones. Just an observation.

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The greatest risk you take in life is the risk you don't take.

[GravityGirl 0]

That's just messed up. With a Tandem on a Cessna, you make some money. Throw in a couple of upjumpers and it's an extra 36 - 40 bucks profit. Sure it doesn't seem like a lot in the moment, but it adds up.

Up jumpers bring more buisness. Up jumpers will be your staff. up jumpers make your job more fun.

Short sighted business practice. Sad.

Byron is a trek from Paso, unless you have your own plane. But if you venture up, we'll make you feel right at home.

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Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[diablopilot 2]

Eh, he's the owner and can do what he likes with his toys. Vote with your dollars and feet....it's the only thing that will make ya happy in the long run.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AdD 1]

That's a good point. If you're in to make a buck experienced jumpers are a pain. Some people won't come out and admit it, it'd be better to just come out with it so people don't spend the day getting bumped and jerked around.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[kelpdiver 2]

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That's just messed up. With a Tandem on a Cessna, you make some money. Throw in a couple of upjumpers and it's an extra 36 - 40 bucks profit. Sure it doesn't seem like a lot in the moment, but it adds up.

Any safety procedural concerns to have a HnP done with 2 tandems? Their 206 does have the sliding door, so it can be closed, but isn't it normal to have the student fully connected before the door opens?

It sounds like they were fine with him going to the 10k tandem height, at least that day.

[gemini 0]

Most of the larger dropzones make about a third of their money from tandems, a third from other students and a third from fun/up jumpers.

In reality it is probably a lot more. For example, how many tandems only do one jump? So the dzo grosses $189 before video, pays the instructor $40-45, pays the aircraft $11-14 and nets at most $138 one-time.

A fun jumper does say 300 jumps per year at $20 each. That's $6,000 gross less $11-14 per slot. So worst case the dzo makes $1,800 on the fun jumper, but it takes a little longer.

Without fun jumpers at a dz, there is limited activity, fewer people to talk to, fewer things to watch. less night life....in other words nothing to keep the tandems and students interested, no new friends to meet, no hot girls/guys to watch, etc.

Tandem shops will do really well initially and then seem to wither away barely wimpering as they go.

Blue skies,

Jim

[Airman1270 0]

Is the DZ a USPA group member? I believe it would be wise for the leadership to consider a policy of denying group membership to DZ's which do not welcome up jumpers. (ASSuming the purpose of USPA is to look out for the best interests of the membership.)

Cheers,
Jon S.

[kosanke 0]

yes, they are a group member. SMB's new policy as of this moment is no upjumpers will be allowed on the cessna 206. upjumpers are allowed on the king air. cost of operation and not making enough money from upjumpers is the reason behind their change. contact the dzo to express your concerns.

[Speer 0]

Have you been to Skydive Santa Barbara at Lompoc? I stopped by there yesterday to check the place out (didn't make any jumps). I had heard good things about them, and from what I experienced yesterday, it appears to be true. You might want to check them out. I think they are even closer to you than Monterey.

They have a Caravan, and a nice looking 206 with a roll up door. They were extremely friendly, and welcomed another up jumper to join the tandem they had going up. The upper landing area is a little tight for less experienced jumpers, but should be fine for most experienced jumpers. There is also an apparently huge LZ in the adjacent river bottom, but I didn't look at it.

Russ

Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning?

[scdrnr 0]

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Most of the larger dropzones make about a third of their money from tandems, a third from other students and a third from fun/up jumpers.

In reality it is probably a lot more. For example, how many tandems only do one jump? So the dzo grosses $189 before video, pays the instructor $40-45, pays the aircraft $11-14 and nets at most $138 one-time.

A fun jumper does say 300 jumps per year at $20 each. That's $6,000 gross less $11-14 per slot. So worst case the dzo makes $1,800 on the fun jumper, but it takes a little longer.

I'm curious about your numbers. The only way for a DZ to make money on upjumpers is if they own their airplanes and facilities free and clear and do large volume.

$138 tandem net? On what planet? 11-14 for the plane is DRY. Add fuel, pilot, and manifest and your right at $20 a butt, maybe even a little over. Packjob, rig maintenance and replacement reserve, another 20. 40 to the instructor and you're already at $100 to do the tandem and you haven't even begun to pay rent, utilities, insurance, and advertising. Whats left over after that, how about after taxes, how about after a run of bad weather, or unexpected aircraft maintenance?

And DZO's get accused of being greedy? I wonder what the average upjumper thinks is fair compensation for 80hrs a week of physically and financially high-risk, weather/seasonal dependant work, with no medical or 401k. Remember, someone has to do it, or you don't get to jump at all.

The average up-jumper makes 100 jumps a year, pays pennies over cost, and represents a DZ's single largest liability. Once you factor in the extra fuel and turn time to carry each additional jumper to the top, its often cheaper to fly the plane with a couple of empty slots.

I think its sad that DZ's are turning away up-jumpers, but for some operations that is the cold reality of their bottom line. I think what many jumpers percieve as greed, is actually desperation.

Don't like it? Get some fellow refugees together and buy an airplane. So how far you get without doing any tandems.

[riggerrob 558]

All good points.
Most licensed jumpers barely pay for fuel and oil.
North American up-jumpers have been spoiled - for far too long - that none of them are willing to pay enough to cover: hangar rental, aircraft maintenance, manifest, phone bill, light bill, heating bill, air conditioning bill, mortgage, pilot's lunch, etc.

[Vertifly 0]

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Up Jumpers are not allowed to jump during the weekdays.

The only uncool thing about that is they should have told you this before you started learning to jump there. My home DZ was like this too. After 80 jumps, I was full-out forced to go to a bigger DZ. Dropped that place like it was a bad habit. Been flying my ass off ever since.

[packerboy 3]

Do a bunch of jumps, become an instructor, then ask him if you can jump. If he says yes, you can take this tandem... that's when you tell him to go fuck his hat.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[Hue-janus 0]

It is a very simple math problem! There is "NO" profit in up jumpers! Period! NONE! NaDa! Everyone wants all of the eminities at their DZ, Turbine A/C, Great facilities, Swoop pond, Carpet packing area, Color TV, Video jump reviews, Showers, Resturant, Pro shop, On site Rigger, Bar, Organized events, Freebys and giveaways, Packers, Coaching Guru to cover Freefly, Flatfly, and canopy Swooping, and Priority for use of the Aircraft, because I only have 2 hours to make 4 jumps so I can go the the professional buzzard fuck in the city because I'am a season ticket holder.
Question is what part of your $20.00 lift ticket pays for any of this extra stuff? Hell it usually won't cover the cost to haul your "overweight ass" to altitude! Jumpers have Steak appetites and lunch meat bugets! When jumpers realize that a DZ is a business and that they provide a service for a "Profit" (key word here) things will improve.
If you want the front roll seat at the Stones concert you can't get it for $20.00 bucks! You got to drop some serious money, when the Tandem passenger drops his $189.00 or what ever he gets peoples attention, I'am sure if you offered the DZO $189.00 he'd get you on a plane.
And just because you went through his training program and he made a profit, you feel he is indebted to you? Does Mickey D's give you a discount because you have dined at one of their establishments before? Do you get your gas for less or priority at the pump because you drive a lot and burn a bunch of fuel?
Jumpers think that they become "friends with the DZ operator" because they jump there and in turn are entitled to a preferential treatment and payment structure, sorry! NOT TRUE! Business! (another key word here) Upjumpers have been very privaliged to have, and use very expensive aircraft for less than, or at operating cost for many many years, but as the old song goes! "Times are a changen" People jumping is a Privilage! Not a right!
The US will eventually go the route of the cost of jumps in europe and other areas, and the days of the "Boogie till you puke" for $99.00 bucks are a faded memory. Many DZO's would love to cater to your wants and needs! and will! The day you start to pay the price for lift tickets that it takes for him to cover his operating costs to provide the services you require and make a reasonable profit. I was told once by a very, well known DZO that the skydiving business works like this "it takes the same amount of staff and effort to train and jump students as it does to entertain and jump upjumpers" but only one makes a profit, the trick is to make profit on the students, and not allow the upjumpers to screw up and cause you to lose your ass"

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Well at least they're clear on where they stand, unlike the DZOs that pay lip service to upjumpers then bump them off loads all weekend.

Very good point.

For Great Deals on Gear

[goobersnuftda 0]

I have read your responce HUE-JANUS but there is one flaw in your reasoning......you are wrong

Without debating the issue, calculating lift weight ratios to cost analysis benifits just do this simple and FREE comparision because it has already been proven out there in the world by someone else.

CLICK HERE

It is the largest most successfull commercial drop zone in the world. Life is not simple, neither is running a DZ. Simple math on a cost/jump ticket price is flawed reasoning.

Larry Hill makes a bit of money from the jump ticket yes ($20.50 US/jump ticet) but like Disneyland or Cruise ships, it is that extra income that is the icing on the cake.

Located 40 minutes ouside a major hub city (Direct flights between Phoenix and London). Arizona Airspeed training camps. Restraunt and bar. Fantastic Square-2 store on the DZ (next day shipping if you want something really bad). Bunkhouse, RV & Camping hookups. Don't forget this little beauty: Clicky and being able to do this Click-O-Rama People all come to spend their $$$ there. The resonible price attracts them and the DZ profits in every little thing they do while there in order to jump (even in the coin laundry).

CLICK HERE

Notice something funny about the picture above? They list 9 jump aircraft but there are 11 planes in the picture. Funny hey? Those other 2 are Larry's personal jets. That does not count the Lear nor the P-51 Mustang he bought in cash. Yup, running a world class DZ in our North American spoiled land sure is a money losing venture.

You are correct that making a living on jump ticket price alone is a money losing venture so too would be Cruise ships if they didn't get $$$ from selling shore tours, casino profits, duty free shoping in the ship and all that alcohol but I don't know of a DZ that doesn't do that exact same thing. IAD, Tandem, PFF, Video DVD, Printed still pictures or even a POP machine to buy Coke from with your spare change all brings in $$$. All that and I know that this particular DZ does not turn away licensed jumpers, jumpers with over 80 jumps nor do they tell you to get off the plane because of Tandems. First one up to the ticket counter with the $$$ gets the slot. Sure the profit margin is high on the single tandem jumper but in most likelyhood it is...see you later and never again. Keep that licensed skydiver happy and over their lifetime, you will make many,many more times in profit than that one time tandem.

A DZ business isn't a single entity like a stone with no moving parts. It is like the engine of your car with many components that all work together to make it work.

[kelpdiver 2]

I delivered 22 AFF jumps and 15 tandems to SMB. I'm going to guess that's a lot of profit, both of which could have continued to occur. Like most other DZs, Monterey would give you a jump ticket for every tandem you brought in. Clearly they saw some value in having active jumpers act as their salesmen.

The question of what a DZO owes a student that spent 2 or 3 grand as a student is an interesting one. I'll go with the simple belief that the DZ shouldn't pretend that they'll be there afterwards if that's not their intent. Doesn't quite apply here - the DZO is new. But if the nearly all tandem policy didn't work for the last guy (Jesse), I'm not sure how an all tandem policy will work much better.

[freeflyit 0]

Man, those guys can suck on a nut. Where's the love?

[bodypilot1 0]

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the DZO is new

Greg is far from a new DZO.



Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[kelpdiver 2]

new in the sense of whether or not SMB would owe me anything for generating 6000 in gross revenues.

what obligations a DZO takes when taking over a preexisting dropzone is yet another fuzzy, moral question. Though I think most people just care about the expiration policy of their jump tickets.

[bodypilot1 0]

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new in the sense of whether or not SMB would owe me anything for generating 6000 in gross revenues.

Sorry to laugh, but hilarious! Most dont even give you a thank you!

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what obligations a DZO takes when taking over a preexisting dropzone is yet another fuzzy, moral question.

I'd bet he'd assume NO obligations when Greg purchased it from Jesse.

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Though I think most people just care about the expiration policy of their jump tickets.

Refer to last quote....


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[diablopilot 2]

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I have read your responce HUE-JANUS but there is one flaw in your reasoning......you are wrong

Actually he's dead on.

The handfull of "Mega DZ's" opperate under a different set of rules.

When you have 100 fun jumpers all week long around to fill your planes you make it up in volume.

When you have one plane, are on a busy GA airport, and have 20 regular fun jumpers who come out mid morning on saturday, and take off before trafic gets bad on Sunday, you better have tandems to make up the difference.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[hookitt 0]

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Though I think most people just care about the expiration policy of their jump tickets.

What is the expiration policy?

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To kosanke: No. There was no misunderstanding. It was a point about airport access.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[kelpdiver 2]

as I recall in this case, someone posting here announcing the change in ownership suggested people should come on down in the next couple weekends.

[goobersnuftda 0]

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Actually he's dead on.
The handfull of "Mega DZ's" opperate under a different set of rules.

I agree with that statement. Hue-janus gave a wide sweeping remark about no profit at all with fun jumpers. US & North Americans are spoiled and better get used to the Europe way of doing things. I gave the other side of the pendelum swing and offered a reference to the mega-DZ. You know what? Somewhere in the middle there is a functional ballance.

Our DZ has maybe 18 full time members but we cater to all. Every 2nd weekend is the jump weekends, IAD students start 8:oo AM and get off quickly. Some times the loads are staggered between students/experienced to have a better flow. Tandems done throught the day. We strive not to piss anyone off because everyone has $$$ and that is what keeps us going.

Granted our only jump ship is not a DC-9, there are always compromises. Wide seeping remarks that try to generalize everyone into a single catagory is wrong and not thought through competely.

There are many different restraunts to choose from in the world, all can survive. But don't show up to a Chinese restraunt and bitch that they don't have Big Macs.