Hue-janus

QuoteRegarding comments made by the OP, neither I nor the USPA staff have the authority to implement any new program or policy on our own. New programs require approval by a majority of the board of directors. Fortunately, the board adopted, with modifications, the staff-generated proposal to implement changes to the Group Member Program to address some very serious recommendations by the National Transportation Safety Board. So everyone can see all aspects of the program, here’s a link to the packet materials recently sent to all Group Member DZs. Part of the problem has been that the Federal Aviation Regulations are easy to misinterpret, even by some in the FAA. We’ve found several DZs that were just conducting annual aircraft inspections with the full knowledge and consent of their overseeing FAA flight standards office. With the USPA narrative and the changes to the pledge, there should be no more confusion. You’ll also see that the Aircraft Status Form requires the operator to indicate not only which inspection program each aircraft complies with, but also asks the date or hours of the last and the next inspection. Finally, the FAA is still responsible for enforcement of the regulations, and the NTSB also recommended that the agency conduct more direct surveillance of jump plane maintenance and operations. An operator that participates in the USPA program should fare better as a result of such surveillance. Ed Scott*** As soon as I recover from the laughter I'll respond! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ok I think I can type now! Sorry that was a good one! WELL! Question? How does USPA plan to verify Aircraft hours and Flight crew names that are offered? So this new Pledge will be supervised and conducted by USPA at the same standards as the old GM Pledge? Come on people on a good day USPA does not, and cannot, enforce the basic GM Pledge, if they ever did and violated the offenders there would be only a hand full of USPA DZ's in operation! OH! ya I remember this is an "Ethics" commitment! and we all know, and support the fact that Business and Ethics are always found to be offered hand in hand! I have heard this excuse from USPA over and over! Its better to attempt to bring them (the violators) into the fold???? Its not like they didn't read and understand the GM Pledge when they signed it??? OH! Yes! I forgot! It's easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission! Truth is USPA needs the membership and the CASH! they cannot afford to pissoff anybody! They need the numbers and financial support! This is the biggest reason they choose the Liberal approach! The BSR's should stand for Baby Setter Recomendations, Why are people unable (and unwilling ) to exercise some common sense when jumping? Oh yes! the everyday answer to a major poor decision! "I Didn't Know!" If you choose to risk your life to experience the sport, and do not arm yourself with some knowledge, and excercise some common sense, Than maybe you are just Stupid! I guess as long as the powers that be ( FAA & NTSB ) buy this approach it is ok?? Damn! I feel so much safer now!!!!! So I guess our GM's will sign the new Pledge, and things will go back to business as usual until the next major F--k Up! Than we will be blessed by some new rules that will be enforced by some alphabet organization.

Sorry! It wasn't my position to offend anyone! Just the experiences that I have had in the past in dealing with the "Club" enviorment. But if I recall correctly, many if not all of the posts naming the clubs they like, are mid size to larger DZs which are operated like a business with the club banner, to give the jumpers unity as a group, and imput to the operation? Again not attempting to piss on anyone parade, just my experience!

Any DZ that calls themselves a "Club" most that I have visited leave a bad taste in your experience. Many do not meet the basic requirements of maintenance on their aircraft and use the guise of a club to use unrated pilots, and not perform 100 hour inspections. Most are poorly organized at best, leave a lot to be desired in training, skill, and knowledge! All of which are very important to the operation of a safe and professional DZ. If they were to have these clubs so they could jump for their personal enjoyment, I would not have the concern, but they get involved in training to supplement their operation costs, and are seen by the public as a business, and this is not why they exist or how they operate.

Really? I'd like to know precisely how many aviation deaths have occurred due to the radio station license not being properly displayed there have been. Question? Mismanagement of fuel? Diverted Attention of the Pilot? Improper use of Flight control? Operating beyond experience or ability of pilot? Many people would probablly consider these items as "minor" or "Simple" All of these incidents have resulted in deaths in jump aircarft operation! But a violation is not complying with existing rules of inspection. maintanence, paperwork, and log entries. Regardless of the argument of the extent of the lack of compliance and wheather this lack of action would have contributed to a crash ot not, these are still the rules! The FAA will violate you all the same and any thing that they find wheather applicable or not during investigation of logs after a crash become part of the cause as showing, noncompliant inspections and repairs. .......................................................................

No USPA don't! But! They claim to the FAA, the membership, and the world that we are self policeing???!!! When was the last time this happened??? Question! if there is no known punishment for violating a rule or law, than you actually believe that the law or rule has substance? or is valid? It becomes lip service, another meaningless standard, much like all of the other political promisses that are made! When a DZ signs the Group Membership Pledge, They by their signature state to the FAA, USPA, jumpers and the public They will promote Safety, support and comply with all USPA BSRs (unless waivered) Maintain and operate their Aircraft in accordance to all current applicable FARs, and regulations, use Qualified and current Commercial Pilots, and maintain the Aircraft to the Engine and Airframe Manufactures standards. *** I can imagine the USPA kicking a drop zone out for violating it. Whether or not that's "proper" is what I suppose the poll is about, but to me it would need to be more than a simple violation; it would actually have to be willful negligence that was found to have been a major issue. *** In aviation a "Simple" violation can cause great loss and death! It has always humored me how when "Laws" or "Rules" are broken many whom would prefer to not recognize the problem run immedtiately, to the "GRAY AREA" and use statements like "Simple" or "Minor" or wish to argue that the infraction may or may not have had any bearing on the accident! This mentality to overlook or trivialize such actions, is human nature to some extent, But! when the shoe of loss is on the other foot and these same nay sayers, attend the funerals of their family or freinds they cry for justice, for the deceased and sever actions to be taken against the violators. The bottom line is this! wheather you support action against a DZO or not, if USPA doesn't step up tp the plate and take action (as they sell to the FAA of their control over the membership, and DZ organization) they will loss more credibility with the FAA, Public, and even some of the membership, and be viewed by many as the lack luster, and ineffective organization they have proven to be so many times in the past! If the FAA has determined by their investigation that a violation exists, and take action against a DZO, than it is "NOT" the responsibility of USPA to question the FAA findings, it "IS" USPAs responsibility to support the FAAs determination, and take action against the violator to prove that we are self governing and responsible, and confirm our statements and commitment. If we are to survive as a sport, there will be some casualities along the way, we need to view the big picture and lay our personal relationships, and feelings down, and honor the privilages underwhich we are allowed to exist, and operate. They (the FAA)don't "Need" to allow us to jump! It is a privilage we need to recognize and support!! .........................................................................

At World Freefall one year Tom Dolphin Decided to have a private orgy between himself and six women, (one being my wife!) I dare not protest from fear for my life! The next morning I met Tom Dolphin on a lift and inquired how he enjoyed sex with all those used married women, He responded that it was very good once he got in past the used part!

I have never read so much cry baby, Liberal, whining and bullshit in my life! The rights of the bad guys? Huh? What the fuck! Do you believe that if they (the dim whits that got shot) were confronted and armed that they would not have shot the neighbor or any other poor asshole whom might have happed by. Why is it that you all feel so strongly about the letter of the law, when the persons whom are committing the crimes do not give a fuck! and have never been concerned with the letter of the law, only as the punishment that may occour if they happen to get caught, and if they had a jury of dipshits like yourselves whom would have left them off! MY opinion fuck-em just some more assholes that we as tax payers will not have to educate and support through the criminal system any longer, if we were to kill more they would become enlightened to the fact that there are consequences to crime other than the get out of jail free card given out by the Liberal court system! So now you will resond with, "if you support this attitude than everyone would need to be afraid of everyone" and my response is! If you are stepping on another fellow turf or personal property to the extent that he may shoot you! Well you are probably across the line. But I am shure you will be unable to comprehend this approach, it takes away your ability to walk around life and claim stupid for your actions with no recourse for what you have done! Our current punishment system dones not work! It is a day care center for the useless of society, we feed um, educate um, give them a place to stay that is better than they have before they get arrested, give them the ability to create ties and bonds with other criminals them turn them loose to take advantage of us again! In today system there is no punishment, only time off from the business of crime.

BULLSHIT! What skavooloo school of logic did you go to? Even worse, where did you get your ethics? So USPA has dirty hands because they came down on a company engaged in fraudulent business practices? Give me a huge fucking break! pathetic self." You my friend are at best completely uninformed and naive as to the actions taken by USPA when they revoked GM DZs and resended memberships in their initial efforts to stop skyride. I do not take sides in this situation but only look at facts as to what has led us to this place. USPA is a membership organization, you "don't" have to join, and their power over you is limited to what you will allow as a paying member, Oh, yes! there is the membership, which if you take that and a dollar you can get a coke at Mickey Ds. To create tools to use to punish skyride they created the ethics section that they added to the GM pledge, which is fine! "But" you cannot do this after the fact to punish membership. Is this action ethical? not in my copy of roberts rules. Than the "Big" Foopaa! During their efforts to disasoctate USPA from skyride and effect their business, (which they did with their actions) they severly bent laws which do not allow outside entities to tamper with federal or interstate commerece laws to conduct business, again in my book unethical and looked upon the same by state and federal statutes. Do you get the point now? Yes! even the bad guys got rights! You can not fix a problem by breaking the law! And no law firm would file suit on skyrides behalf unless there were laws broken to justify the suit. Now go back to "Your" Skavooloo school of logic, locate the ethics manual and make a entry, not to make stupid statements until do you your fucking! Homework! You would make a great USPA board member! "Primed for a fight and going off half cocked"

I see your point, what I am saying is that every action has a cause! a situation which will force change than becomes the root for the action! When DZs made profit from experienced jumpers they they were not forced to focus their attempts to profit from the student base! When experienced jumpers started crying Turbine and 15,000 plus feet as an everyday requirement at a DZ the cost of providing the service went through the roof and eliminated any profit from the experienced jumpers. They than refuse to pay what the cost is reflective of purchasing and operating a turbine aircraft, they say it would be to expensive and they would limit their jumping or just stop. The DZOs are forced to seek out alternative programs to create the monies that are needed to offer the requested turbine service which the experienced jumpers would boycott paying for, when they are the ones requesting this service as a standard, stand on the shoulders of the student programs and derive the largest benefit from the request. We all are responsible to some extent for the current situation. It is very easy to place blame on the DZs and skyride, but yet justify in our own minds our refusal to pay our fair share and create a profit for the sport we say we love. If you are all about the sport as I hear persons state here, than how are these proposed actions against the DZs that are a intrigal part of our small group going to benifit our future? It is like cutting off your nose in spite of your face, this action is a negative against the core of the sport we say we as customers are concerned with. Any outside faction that may view this thread would most certainly think that we will not even support our own let alone could we be trusted to take responsibility for them as potential customers. When did it become a huge concern of experienced jumpers how potential students or the public were treated when they made a dicision to make a purchase or pursue the sport? I will tell you when! When the DZO said "I am going to need to greatly increase lift ticket prices because our student business is down an we need more money to meet the cost of the turbine" This comes from the same persons whom think a proposed boycott of the existing DZs that many of them have jumped at is a solution to the situation? Kind of like burning down your house to get rid of mice? I can name you many DZ web sites, that by their Photos advertisment would lead you to believe that they have multiple turbines, huge facilities, bunk houses with showers, Plasma TVs, Best most experienced instructors in the US, ETC and when you get there they have a dirty hanger, a trashed trailer, and are leasing someone elses discarded aircraft. It this not the same lies you are fighting with skyride? How do we justify the lie if it benifits us? But is unexceptable if told by someone else? We cannot complain about the conditions of others practises until we become responsible and ethical about our own! You are pursuing a battle with skyride and these DZs, I am looking at the cause and how to win the WAR!

I have followed this thread for some time on all of the sections listed, Yes! they are different threads but the bottom line complain is always the same "SKYRIDE" Everyone is quick to place blame, But! I have seen no one look at the chain of events that has orchestrated this event. Lets go back 30 plus years and see what we have came to. Most DZs at that time were cessna operations, most never flew higher than 7,500 a few would do 9,000, if you wanted more altitude you had to attend a very infrequent boogie to get 12,500 out of a D-18 Beech or a DC-3, the cost to altitude was a buck a thousand $12.50. Tandem was soon to arrive and cost around $100.00 per jump, you could buy a brand new Tandem rig for $3,200.00, you could buy a D-18 for $25,000 to $40,000 and a DC-3 for $60,000, fuel was $0.60 a gallon, At that time a DZ or club would produce a reasonable profit for hauling experienced jumpers, There were fewer members of USPA but that jumped every weekend and made many more jumps. It was not the norm of any operation to aggressively pursue students training programs, they kind of got in the way of skydiving which was profitable and less of a risk and hassle! Fast forward to 2007 now many DZs are turbine operations, average exit altitudes are so high that the FAA is investigating why we don't require supplemental oxygen to keep jumpers and pilots from blacking out, many experienced jumpers now have never jumped a cessna, or any piston powered aircraft. The cessna is replaced with a $600,000.00 to $1,000,000.00 turbine, fuel costs, $3.50 plus a gallon (and turbines love fuel) Tandem rigs are $13,500.00 plus, There are more USPA members but they frequent the DZs much less and the average number of jumps per year per member is way down! We now pay $1.50 per thousand for altitude so there is no profit in experienced jumpers, the DZOs must find a way to make a profit and keep the required turbine running so they must aggressively pursue student programs so they can stay in business. OPPS! I said something that many experienced jumpers keep forgetting the B word "BUSINESS" that is what a Drop Zone is. It must produce revenue to pay for and support all of the required equipment and services, pay a working staff, and offer the operators a reasonable profit for the risk they assume and service they provide. Now we come to SKYRIDE if they were not deceptive in their advertising and dealing with the public, I believe there would be far less complaints from jumpers. To a DZO it is another outlet that can produce profit for the business (OH! I said the B word again! "BUSINESS) they may not agree with the methods that are used by skyride in selling jumps to customers, but they cannot afford to turn away a profitable customer when so many of the local jumpers whom frequent their establishment produce no profit (experienced jumpers) If they made their decisions solely on ethics they could place their DZs into more financial risk! I read that they (skyride) are taking our students? this confuses me, there are no demographic lines drawn that states that all persons whom live in an certain area are the business property of an existing DZ? So how can these students be taken? I have also read that the money made for skyride by the DZs that except their certificates are supporting Skyrides legal battle with USPA, this is true to some extent, but has anyone considered the legal mistakes made by USPA in the pursuance of skyride on behalf of their members which created a legal basis for the action? No one has clean hands in this situation, so we can place no blame or guilt. So we come to this, these are the things as I see that support the current situation and must be changed for this situation to cease to continue. 1. Experienced jumpers must support their respective DZs more, (more jumps) make an assertive effort on their part to bring to the DZs students and Tandem students, and pay a increased price for lift tickets which will allow the "BUSINESS" to make a profit for the service they request. 2. Skyride must operate ethically in dealing with potential customers and be truthful in their practises, operations, and locations where they offer services, if they did this more DZs would except their certificates which would in turn relieve the travel complaints, and deception. 3. The public must become more informed of advertising practises, in the US it has become a common practise to stretch the truth in advertising to the braking point, and respond if caught with "well everybody does it" this may be true to some extent, but it does not make it ethically correct. The public cries victim when things go bad! but overlook the fact that they are partially responsible for being lazy and researching locations and DZs before they buy! This street runs both ways. 4. USPA should exercise their responsibility to require all group member DZs meet and operate within the BSRs and FARs and guidelines as layed out in the GM pledge, and make an efford on their own part to work within the ethics standards that they hold all other members to. What I am saying is that the current cowboys and indians standards that is being allowed to stand in the sport will be our downfall, All of this finger pointing! I won't jump there! These guys are wrong! Bullshit will get us no where, and has no effect on skyride or the DZs whom except their sales. We need to stop bickering amongst ourselves and unite for the common good of the sport it is not us against each other! we need to pull our ranks in and pursue the fact that it is us against the rest of the world. Just my opinion.

I read in one of his prior posts that he offered to sell to them? I do not know the man, but have some friends that have been at his riggers course from what thay said he would possible pass on the switch and go direct to the hitting!

goobersnuftda, sounds like you are a club member? If you are sorry, your position is "very" flawed! Do this, Dump your student training and tandem program completely, maintain the same level of service and aminities and operating costs, and see how long you remain in operation with just your upjumpers. Won't be operating long! Because as I said there is "NO" money in upjumpers! Question why spend all the money and time to operate a full on DZ when the only profit you make is from gear and t-shirt sales? Your saying it is necessary to operate the largest sections of your business to break even or a small loss to have a business? If you can not make profit from the main offering of your operation you have a pricing problem, if you make profit from the main objective "than" you can offer sideline aminities at break even or loss to "satisfy" the requests of your patrons, if these sidelines become a problem you can stop this service and not have it effect the operation as a whole But! You must make profit from the main part of the operation. I constantly hear club jumpers talk about how DZ's should charge and operate, Sorry! They don't have a clue! What they do as a club is skirt the issues of responsibility, operating costs and free labor to obtain cheaper jumps, if this is your wish fine! But don't complain about how a litigimate commercial DZ must operate because it doesn't meet your financial wishes. You are playing a totally different game the only simularity is the fact that it entails skydiving. Many business models follow the Mickey'Ds formula of sell a billion at a nickel profit and you will do well, this works if the entire population of the US is your cliant, The population of skydiving and the realistic number of possible students is very small in relation to the US population which makes this approach not feasable, the numbers are just not there. Everyone wants cheap jumps! Thats a given! But you "must" pay for the service you wish to have or the service will no longer be offered. Basic business 101.

It is a very simple math problem! There is "NO" profit in up jumpers! Period! NONE! NaDa! Everyone wants all of the eminities at their DZ, Turbine A/C, Great facilities, Swoop pond, Carpet packing area, Color TV, Video jump reviews, Showers, Resturant, Pro shop, On site Rigger, Bar, Organized events, Freebys and giveaways, Packers, Coaching Guru to cover Freefly, Flatfly, and canopy Swooping, and Priority for use of the Aircraft, because I only have 2 hours to make 4 jumps so I can go the the professional buzzard fuck in the city because I'am a season ticket holder. Question is what part of your $20.00 lift ticket pays for any of this extra stuff? Hell it usually won't cover the cost to haul your "overweight ass" to altitude! Jumpers have Steak appetites and lunch meat bugets! When jumpers realize that a DZ is a business and that they provide a service for a "Profit" (key word here) things will improve. If you want the front roll seat at the Stones concert you can't get it for $20.00 bucks! You got to drop some serious money, when the Tandem passenger drops his $189.00 or what ever he gets peoples attention, I'am sure if you offered the DZO $189.00 he'd get you on a plane. And just because you went through his training program and he made a profit, you feel he is indebted to you? Does Mickey D's give you a discount because you have dined at one of their establishments before? Do you get your gas for less or priority at the pump because you drive a lot and burn a bunch of fuel? Jumpers think that they become "friends with the DZ operator" because they jump there and in turn are entitled to a preferential treatment and payment structure, sorry! NOT TRUE! Business! (another key word here) Upjumpers have been very privaliged to have, and use very expensive aircraft for less than, or at operating cost for many many years, but as the old song goes! "Times are a changen" People jumping is a Privilage! Not a right! The US will eventually go the route of the cost of jumps in europe and other areas, and the days of the "Boogie till you puke" for $99.00 bucks are a faded memory. Many DZO's would love to cater to your wants and needs! and will! The day you start to pay the price for lift tickets that it takes for him to cover his operating costs to provide the services you require and make a reasonable profit. I was told once by a very, well known DZO that the skydiving business works like this "it takes the same amount of staff and effort to train and jump students as it does to entertain and jump upjumpers" but only one makes a profit, the trick is to make profit on the students, and not allow the upjumpers to screw up and cause you to lose your ass"

Yes! This is what I was informed by a city Manager! We have tried to avoid posting on here, as we do not want to get involved with all of the negative politics that this area is known for, but we feel that this bit of mis-information should be addressed. From day 1, our lease agreement had nothing in it that we could not comply by. In the lease that was put before the board two weeks ago, the insurance requirements were that we would maintain general liability insurance on our leased premises, 3rd party liability insurance of $50,000, and workers' compensation insurance. It was only after the strong urging of another drop-zone owner that the city considered adding other insurance requirements. Maybe you should call James Green and call him a liar to his face? If it is necessary we can obtain a copy of the original contact and allow the persons on this tread to decide what was required!! Step up!! Lets let the paper work tell the truth!!! Put the paper where you mouth is!!! If this other DZO can get the contarct changed simple by his "as you call it strong urging", than apparently you are not the DZO promoter that you claim to be???? or maybe he pointed out something that was already there and you are not savey enough to know? We met with the city administrator last Tuesday and were given a new draft of the lease that had changed the 3rd party liability insurance to $1,000,000 and added to our general liability section was the line, "including, but not limited to all parties and participants of the Tenant's business operations." Maybe they added these words but the requirement for General Liability Insurance, 3rd party for $1,000.000 was in the first draft, again call James Green a liar to his face!!!! or get your contacts cleaned! We told the city administrator that we would research to see if this insurance was available, but that we were quite certain that it was not. After calling numerous insurance experts, we verified that neither of these insurances were available. The paper said you were told this at the City Council meeting!! and it is reported that you stood in front of the council and stated that you would supply any insurance that was required! When this was brought before the board, the issue was raised as to how the wording would have to be in order for us to comply with the lease. The city attorney stated that the 3rd party liability insurance would have to be reduced back to $50,000 and that the line, which he added to our general liability section, that now included all of our business activities would have to be removed, and then our general liability insurance would be back to basic slip and fall. The board voted 5-4 to deny the lease, based on the fact that we could not obtain the insurance that they had only recently asked for. Also, this insurance is not required of any other tenant on the airport, including LifeFlight. Feel free to contact the city, as LifeFlight's lease is available under the Freedom of Information Act. If anyone is interested, I can provide copies of our lease, as it was two weeks ago, and our lease as the city changed it to several days ago. You should fire your attorney if he is not aware of what General Liability Insurance is! Sorry but life flight has General Liability Insurance, 3rd party for $2,500.000 Yes! Please exercise the FOA and get the contract! Whether or not it is unreasonable to require an insurance that is not available and whether or not it is unjustly discriminatory to require an insurance that is not required of any other user on the airport is ultimately up to the FAA, and we look forward to hearing their determination. You gotta go to Missouri Department of Transportation, first if they back up than you may get to the fed. It cannot be ruled discriminatory if it is required of any and all who operate a commercial business venture on city property. and it is!!! The funny thing is that everyone who states the facts that are backed by the local papers, city management, city employees, or state or federal rules are wrong? Question? why do persons on this thread, not take the time to phone persons and ask questions? Why do they take postings at face value? or is like a court of law where you will never find the truth, only the best argument? Very sad! Emotionally blinded people, on both sides!

In her E-mail reply she said she was very busy, dealing with a bunch of Donkeys next door who were attempting to act like skydivers, and she didn't have time to answer any questions from another group of asses on-line!