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Unutsch

the toggle gets loose durgin freefall, what would you do?

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yp, it happened to me... there i was on a solo jump learning HD, and at some 2000 meters i noticed my riser cover got opened... no biggy, everything seemed allright... so i continue my freefall in the box and start looking where the guy who jumped before me is, as something started slapping me on my helmet... i took a second look, and saw that my left toggle wasn't in it's place anymore, it was unhooked and was flying around like crazy... by this time i was at some 1600 meters, so i grabbed it and decided to open my reserve... well, it didn't opened fast, but SUPER FAST... but i was prepared, and didn't got hurt...

and now, i sit here wondering if it would be better to open my main, regardless the unset toggle... it's a Ace 100, loaded at 1,6...??? what do you all thinkg???

p.s.: i lost my freebag :$:$;)


Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

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I would have atleast tried to see if I could get the main to open semi-normally. Especially knowing which toggle was undone, maybe hang on the other riser or pop the toggle after snatch force. Eitherway, standby for a very weird probable mal opening and keep an eye on altitude so to leave enough time to cutaway if need be.

That's just me, though.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Left toggle = hold toggle, open main, "fly" the opning with the free toggle to keep it going straight-ish.

Right toggle = Try to hold in left hand in front of your head, repeat left toggle procedure.

Can't get either toggle = Toss main pilot chute well away from the loose toggle, hope for the best, be ready to turn with the canopy to avoid line twists, and be prepared to release the other toggle or cutaway.

I'd rather try to open the main than depoly the reserve past a loose toggle.

I have had experience with this with several canopies in the 135 to 107 range back in the bad old days of velcro and freeflying. It's not fun, but I never had to cutaway the main either.

The real answer is to get a solid rig that stays shut.

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i'd try to release the second toggle first. if i could uncover riser cover and reach it (almost impossible on mirage g4 with secondary riser covers) but at your atom maybe it's possible don't know.

Otherwise i'd do as others, hold the left toggle and open. What could possibly go wrong. You want to have a cutaway someday anyway ;)
"George just lucky i guess!"

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well, i thought so... but at the moment it was the only solution for me... since i olny once gave such a situation a thought before, and at that time it seemed to me the best to open the reserve immediately... well, thank god i learned from it the "easy" way (not taking into the account the lost freebag and a really speedy opening :P:P


Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

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You have got to be kidding.



Well with good rig YES, but with rig which risers get undone in freefall who knows, it's worth a shot if you're flexible enough...

Huh i don't know whether i'm really talking bullsh%#$#t, i'll put on my rig and try to do it :S
"George just lucky i guess!"

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i'd try to release the second toggle first. if i could uncover riser cover and reach it



You have got to be kidding.

- Dan G



I agree - fiddling with riser covers is not on my short list of things I want to do in freefall at 5,000 feet after noticing something funky is going on with my rig.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

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The first time it happened to me, I just opened the main and hoped for the best. It wasn't untill after it happened that I thought of what to do, which came in handy the next time it happened.

The guy suggesting you release the other toggle in freefall is acting like a person under the influence of crack. Aside from being diffucult and time consuming in frefall, there is a good chance that the two toggles will tangle with each other before you can throw the PC. With one toggle out, if you can't grab it, there's a fair chance it will tangle with something (riser, slider lines, etc) on it's own.

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The guy suggesting you release the other toggle in freefall is acting like a person under the influence of crack. Aside from being diffucult and time consuming in frefall, there is a good chance that the two toggles will tangle with each other before you can throw the PC.



I've had exactly that happen, though not from any intentional action I took. I was sitflying wearing a Dolphin container with velcro riser covers. My girlfiend pointed above me and I noticed lines up there moving around like crazy. We had been last out and there were no loads following us so I dumped right then at around 8000 feet. I found myself in nice little spin on my back (not violent or anything), but was able to use the altitude fixing the problem (i.e. untangling the brake lines) with simple altitude awareness (my hand and thus altimeter being right in front of my face while playing with the mess). I got it all straightened out at about 3000 feet and landed normally.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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You should have deployed the main.
Firing a reserve into a loose toggle is what killed Carl Nelson, (Roger's brother).
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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Unutsch
No law for AAD in Slovenia? Freedom of choice?


If you prefer that term, although it's really lack of regulation. (rules were written, I believe, in the days of KAP-3s and haven't changed much since then)

Hey Unutsch, glad you're OK man! Sell that rig to a bellyflyer and get something better- how will we ever build big-way hd formations if your toggles are flapping around?:P

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... although it's really lack of regulation. (rules were written, I believe, in the days of KAP-3s and haven't changed much since then) ...]



I understand.

P.S.
My rig doesn't even HAVE riser covers....and nothing gets loose!
-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

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hold the left toggle and open. What could possibly go wrong. You want to have a cutaway someday anyway ;)



Not convinced that this would be a very good idea at all. For the very same reason that you say to hold the toggle (you are worried about it wrapping around your slider or something), I would be more worried about the toggle and line wrapping around my alti or fingers. You get a good snatch on deployment and the line is nice and tightly wrapped around your hand or fingers - and you have a mal too for good measure.

Have fun trying to free yourself and dumping your reserve out (if you're lucky the line won't have broken your fingers and you'll have nothing more than line burn).

I think the best plan would be to dump your main, hope it opens but be prepared for a mal.

Just my thoughts

Blue skies

Paul

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hehe, i hope it doesn't happen again, but if it does, i'll again hold the loose toggle in my hand, but this time deploy my main, no matter how high i am!

thanks for all the advice :)


Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

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but this time deploy my main, no matter how high i am!



This is ambiguous.
Do you mean you would deploy your main up high immediately on discovering the problem, even if you were at e.g. 8k? I think that would be good because you would have more time to deal with any mal you might have. But then you'd have to worry about being a hazard to other people.

But it could also mean that you would deploy your main, even if you were at (or below!) your normal main deployment altitude. That's not so good.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

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well, no matter what i or anybody else does in this kind of situation, there's always a hazard involved:

1. i open my main up high (let's say above 1.500 meters) --> i'm a hazard to the jumpers who are behind me, plus some other hazards which were already discussed

2. i open my reserve at normal opening altitude (800 meters) --> i could get unconscious because of the enormous opening shock, or, less likely, but still possible, i could have a mal on the reserve...

as for your question, i meant that i would open my main up high (the moment i caught my zooming toggle) at some 1.500 meters...

:)


Check out the site of the Fallen Angels FreeflY Organisation:
http://www.padliangeli.org

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Been there done that. My main hooked up to a rental rig w/ velcro riser covers while waiting for the new container, solo jump (not doing HD, just sitting, but on this jump with a cartwheel-should have known better). Left toggle comes out, i notice and grab it (read:nail it to my shoulder, not holding it in hand).
Stayed in box until opening altitude, let go to pull and expect a sharp right turn. Main opens normanlly, dives right and i grab the left and release the right toggle. Uneventful canopy ride, reserve and freebag still in place.
The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

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One time I jumped with one guy I didnt know , and this guy made loops and tryed to sit like crazy moving a lot, he had his toogle out, I tried to tell him but he didnt noticed it, he tried to fly to me, but I really didnt want to play with his crazy loop and toogle:S.It also happened to me jumping with my teammate, we were doing some sit with a lot of cloud down , when I saw my toogle playing around, Iwas like at 5000 feet went into a cloud and went belly into the cloud and just pulled with the toogle on my back , I thought my canopy a xaos loaded around 2 would mafunction , but it just opened fine it only turned a bit so I grabed the other riser , anyway I could see too much inside the cloud.

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I had this happen last weekend. I was jumping a dolphin container that I just bought off the senior rigger and let this dude pack it that had only packed like 20 times. I don't know how to pack yet since I just started jumping 3 weeks ago and wanted to get back in the air so I just let him pack it. It came out when I was just screwing around flying on my back. I was at about 7k so I grab and I have no idea what I should really do. I keep my eye on my altimeter and flip back over at 5 and chuck it out and pull. It opened into a bad spin and I was like "shit, looks like i'm gonna have my first cutaway." Well I just grab my toggles and pull em down and it was just because obviously one of the brakes got released early. It was quite a rush though. The rigger is now putting secondary riser covers on just for shits & giggles since he said it was the packers fault. Makes me feel a lot better though. I'm thinking of just sending my dolphin in to get all the freefly friendly updates. I guess I'll see what I think about his secondary riser protection first.

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Far wiser to send your Dolphin back to the factory for major modifications.
Since I have never seen a Dolphin with secondary riser covers, I would be deeply suspicious of any after-market secondary riser covers.
Even Bill Booth - who invented secondary riser covers - will probably tell you that you do not them on a Dolphin, because the original riser covers are so deep.

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