Roads more dangerous than skydiving??????

[pirana 0]

Quote

Quote

less people skydive than drive cars

I know that, thats why I picked the same number of people that I know that do each

In that case what you are doing is a survey at best, an opinion poll at worst. Either way, it has no statistical validity as far as determining the relative safety of the 2 activities.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[winsor 192]

Quote

In every post I read, when someone says that skydiving is save, they get jumped on.
The most common argument is that driving is as, or more dangerous, than skydiving.
Out of a sample of 50 skydivers and 50 nonskydivers that I picked at random. I just wrote a list of the first people that came to mind. More were hurt on the road.
any thoughts on this? has it any statistical relevance?

As a side note I think the argument of weather something is "safe" or not is a bit silly as it is relative it is like the question "is it far?"

All things being considered, the statistical basis for your conclusion that skydiving is "safe" is pure nonsense.

To put things into perspective, the process of skydiving involves committing suicide with the intention of intervening in the nick of time. If the intervention is too late or ineffective, the suicide takes and you are dead.

We have made great strides in ensuring that the suicide intervention means and methods upon which we rely are effective, and may thus delude ourselves that they are guaranteed. They are not.

Although I plan to skydive for many more years, and
to die of complications of old age, I do not doubt for a second that skydiving can kill me deader than hell at any time.

As far as the original question goes, I have known 45 some-odd people in the sport who are now dead. Five of them died in airplane accidents, one was killed in a fireworks explosion, one had a heart attack, and the only vehicular fatalities were a snowmobiling accident and being hit by a car while bicycling. The rest, 26 out of 45, or 58%, were killed while skydiving.

In any event, the more dangerous you treat skydiving as being, the safer it becomes.

Ego may get you out of the door, but humility can help you get to the ground in one piece.


BSBD,

Winsor

[JohnRich 4]

Here is a great way to relate skydiving risk to something that novices

can understand, and which they can then use to assess their willingness

to accept the risk based upon that comparison.


"Accident Facts" from the National Safety Council, for 1994, shows a

motor vehicle death rate of 1.83 per 100 million miles traveled.


Skydiving fatalities are 1 per 100,000 jumps, or a death rate of

.00001 per jump.


To compare with driving, we want to find the equivalent death rate

of .00001 per x miles driven.  What is x?  Well, going back to high

school math (yech):


1.83      .00001

----------- = ------      So, x = 546 miles

100,000,000      x


In other words, one skydive is as risky as driving 546 miles!


This could be construed as a bit of an "apples vs. oranges" comparison,

since we're talking about a single skydive, compared with miles driven.

But, whuffos need something to which they can relate, and I like this

in that respect.  And no matter what means of comparison you try to

use, you have the same problem; time of exposure, distance traveled,

etc.


By the way, the fatality rate for motorcycles is 25 per 100 million

miles traveled, or 17 times higher than other motor vehicles.  Yikes!


To compare with motorcycling, lets run through that icky math again:


25       .00001

----------- = ------      So, x = 40 miles

100,000,000      x


In other words, one skydive is as risky as driving 40 miles on a

motorcycle!


For the whuffo, or the first jump student who is thinking about

just making one skydive, I think this is a great way to relieve their

fears, and to give them a practical means of risk comparison.

[mjosparky 3]

“Safe” is a relative term. I don’t believe you can effectively compare skydiving to driving. Its apples to oranges. Little old ladies can drive a car with some degree of success.

In the 30 years I was actively jumping I saw tremendous improvements in gear, technology, training and the overall intelligence of the average jumper. One thing stayed the same. The fatalities stayed in the mid to high 20’s every year. (In the US)

Note Booth’s law #2:

"The safer skydiving gear becomes, the more chances skydivers will take, in order to keep the fatality rate constant."

The skill sets required and the workload placed on a jumper during a 60 second skydive are greater than any other activity I can think of. With the possible exception of flying a fighter jet in a dog fight. (never did understand why a plane would get in a fight with a dog)

When something goes wrong, and it will, the jumper has just seconds to recognize, analyze, develop a plan of action and execute that plan. All while traveling in excess of 100 mph.

All of my “friends” over the years have driven, but only a few of them were active skydivers. I can only recall 4 or 5 that died while driving or riding in a car. To count the “friends” I have lost to skydiving would use up all my fingers and toes and the list would not be complete.

As Bill “Sled” Edwards used to say:

“If this sports is so fucking safe, how come all me friends are dead.”

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,476]

>Little old ladies can drive a car with some degree of success.

Craig G likes to compare driving to skydiving. Taz had a great reply to one of his 'it's just like driving' comparisons - "I don't know about that. Me mum drives a car."

[Ron 7]

Skydiving is not safe. It can't be. Driving is not safe. It can't be either.

Saying you know more people who have died driving is silly. I bet you know more people that drive than you know that jump. And I bet most of those that jump also drive.

However, you need to look at the participant rates, amount of use, saftey devices ect, and the environment itself to make any informed choice.

Your comparison to working on a ladder is only a very small part. It covers environment and I'd venture that a 30 foot ladder and falling from 10,000 feet are not even close to the same fatality rate.

Then look at the equipment. In skydiving you have AAD's, freebags, ect. Those come no where as close to the amount of safety equipment a car comes with. Plus the car itself is designed to crush in the place of hurting the person.

The vary nature of both are not safe. But only one starts with certain death on EVERY experience. (Save me the AAD will save me BS, the same could be said for Airbags or seatbelts).

The very nature of the extreme environment that skydivers play in means that the sport can not be considered "safe".

The USPA #s show about 34000 people in the sport in the US. The average number of fatalities ar 30 per year. So rough math shows around one death per 1100 people.

Looking at that "how stuff works" piece. It say 17 jumps is all that it would take to equal the chance of death in skydiving as it is driving. I don't know about you but I have 3800 jumps so I have the same "risk" ,according to that article, as someone who has driven for 223 YEARS. And I bet most skydivers make more that 17 jumps per year. Also, it compares 17 jumps to 10,000 miles driven. So how many TIMES did that person have to drive to get 10,000 miles? I bet more than 17 trips. So they want to compare ONE YEARS worth of driving to one jump? Nonsense really.

Quote

But I don't think that the word safe has no place in a conversation about Skydiving

Depends on the context. But for the most part in a general sense nothing about skydiving could be considered safe. If is a term used to try and make people feel better about what they do.

Winsor said it best, you commit suicide each time you jump from a plane and you rely on equipment and training to prevent your death in the last 20 seconds.

The same can not be said for driving.

The equipment between the two does not even come close to the same level of protection.

Training levels are different.

If everyone drove like they jump, driving fatalities would drop greatly.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,476]

>Winsor said it best, you comit suicide each time you jump from a
> plane and you rely on equipment and training to prevent your death
> in the last 20 seconds. The same can not be said for driving.

Very true. Generally when your car fails, you stop.

[SKYOCEAN 0]

Hey Ron, is the smiley in your sig account for a smiley in every post for 2006?

If not there were no smileys in your post up there!

I should have been a kickass drummer and a world famous first base man.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Hey Ron, is the smiley in your sig account for a smiley in every post for 2006?

Yes.

Quote

If not there were no smileys in your post up there!

It was placed there in very careful consideration of me maybe forgetting....Lets call it a reserve smiley.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kevinwhelan 0]

As a general reply to everyone who has answered my post in the last while, I would like to make a few points.
I never said skydiving was safer than driving
I don't believe that that skydiving is a low risk activity
what I do believe is that if someone says that skydiving is safe, depending on context, they may be correct, and should not automaticlly be assumed to be deluding themselves.
I posed this in the form of a poll to get people to think about its relative danger.
I don't think any skydiver believes it is a risk free activity, but that is not to say it is unsafe.
I wish I could reply in more detail to all posts but because of time zone difference its getting late here and I have a few more things to do before bed.

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

less people skydive than drive cars

I know that, thats why I picked the same number of people that I know that do each

Huh? How many of your 50 skydivers don't drive?

What you really want to poll is how many skydiver-drivers (which in the US at least is virtually all of them) got hurt doing one or the other.

If you see a familiar face at the DZ, walking towards you in a cast, do you presume it happened in the air, or behind the wheel?

[jakee 1,280]

Quote

The skill sets required and the workload placed on a jumper during a 60 second skydive are greater than any other activity I can think of. With the possible exception of flying a fighter jet in a dog fight.

Surely not. I'm not saying skydiving can't be a high pressure situation, but look at the way people train for it. After 4 or 5 hours of theory people can skydive under supervision (AFF), after 9 minutes of putting it into practice they are signed off to skydive all on their own.

I don't deny that skydiving is dangerous, but at a basic level I just don't think it's that complicated.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Ron 7]

Quote

I never said skydiving was safer than driving

You poll options compared the two. It is fair to assume that people will debate that point.

Quote

I don't believe that that skydiving is a low risk activity

By that definition then it is either "medium" or "high". Which do you think it is? I go with "high".

Quote

what I do believe is that if someone says that skydiving is safe, depending on context, they may be correct, and should not automaticlly be assumed to be deluding themselves.

I disagree. They are either deluding thmeselves or someone else. Name me one other sport where you put yourself into a situation that WILL end in your death. Then you wait until near the very end to stop that chain of events.

Really, I can't think of ONE other sport where people do that.

Quote

I posed this in the form of a poll to get people to think about its relative danger.

Relative danger. You compaed driving to skydiving...A common but very flawed analogy.

Quote

I don't think any skydiver believes it is a risk free activity, but that is not to say it is unsafe.

I know people that think it is safe...And by the very nature of the sport it is unsafe. Your mental outlook on it does not change the fact that you are in freefall towards an uncaring planet.

Nothing is "safe". Even sitting around doing nothing will kill you. But considering that skydiving adds sudden impact trama as a possible outcome means that it can not be safe. And we do it for FUN.

But it being for fun, us having the best training, the best equipment and a good attitude does not make the act itself safe.

Something is or is not safe, we can minimize the danger and bring it to an acceptable level, but it is still dangerous, just controlled.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[peckerhead 0]

I have been jumping for over 25 years and I have never been present on the DZ when there was a fatality. I don't personaly know anyone who has been killed skydiving. (meaning some one who I knew well and jumped with) and I have jumped in 10 different states and 3 different countries, trained students since the 80's etc.

I did know 3 people killed in jump plane crashes 2 of them were good friends the third I jumped with many times.

There was a DZO I met one time that went in but I did not know him very well. I have been very lucky I guess, fatalities have always happened somewhere else to people I have only heard about or complete strangers. Nameless jumpers in the back of parachutist.

I have seen some very close calls and been involved in a few myself so I will never let my guard down. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't

On the other hand I can't really think of anyone close that was killed in a car accident either. It has always been a friend of someones sister or something like that. I have been in a car accident that I was lucky to survive, and know many people who can say the same thing.

Honestly, most of the dead skydivers I know died from drugs, alcohol, health problems or old age.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

I disagree. They are either deluding thmeselves or someone else. Name me one other sport where you put yourself into a situation that WILL end in your death. Then you wait until near the very end to stop that chain of events.

Deep diving. Basically it is the same:
- you have to do something to survive (swim out, probably making decompression stops), and if you don't do it, or do it really wrong, you will be dead as soon as the oxygen supply is empty;

- you rely on your equipment to survive, and some equipment failures are fatal;

You can even say the same with flying the plane - as soon as you took off you're basically dead until you land successfully. You rely on your experience and equipment to survive, and you probably know some dead pilots who was very experienced, and was flying a good plane.

There are no safe sports. I know a person who got a heart attack during chess tournament after making an obvious mistake.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

but at a basic level I just don't think it's that complicated.

"You keep thinking Butch, thats what you are good at". Sundance

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jakee 1,280]

Quote

"You keep thinking Butch, thats what you are good at". Sundance

Gee thanks, thats really informative.

How about looking at it this way, the basic safety requirements of a skydive are something like, exit at the right time, fall stable, pull at the right time, identify any mals, possibly operate a 2 step emergency system, find an open space, flare.

On top of this people are able to add layers of complexity up to turning 40+ points of 4-way, flying a slot perfect 400-way, going head down with a skyball, initiating HP landings from 1000ft gaining up to 80/90mph in speed under tiny canopies..... The basic skydive seems to leave a lot of spare mental capacity available to do those things.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kevinwhelan 0]

Quote

You poll options compared the two. It is fair to assume that people will debate that point.

I picked driving because that is the most common analogy I have heard. I actually think skydiving is far more dangerous than driving. In fact I think it is the most dangerous thing I have ever done, well apart from a few drunk moments

Quote

Nothing is "safe". Even sitting around doing nothing will kill you. But considering that skydiving adds sudden impact trama as a possible outcome means that it can not be safe. And we do it for FUN.

This is exactly what I mean. Nothing is really safe. So we either not use the word or we define it in relation to its context.
As in, I would say a wingloading of 1:1 is safe for a student but 2:1 would not be safe.
Everyone seems happy enough to say skydiving is dangerous. But so is everything else. So this statement really has no meaning if taken literaly. Danger must be viewed in context.

To go back to my ladder. Climbing a ladder is dangerous, but if some of the rungs are missing you would say the ladder is dangerous. But if it is in good condition and properly used you would call it safe.

My point came from a thread where this was said

Quote

What is it that scares you ?? Dying ?? In that case, stay in your house like agoraphobics, because danger is lurking everywhere !! Skydiving is a safe sport, safer than most of the extreme sports out there.

Now while I think this is a bit strong worded, It got me thinking about our use of the word 'Safe'

We use it all the time in every day life " will my car be safe there?"
It is a relative term anything can be considered to be safe.
I think skydiving is safe compared to base jumping

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[slotperfect 7]

The way this thread has gone - talking about the relative safety vs. danger of skydiving - came from the subject and main point of your original post. The comparison with driving also steered it that way. Your "side note" - the context in which skydivers use the word "safe" in their own discussions seems to be the point you are now trying to drive home.

Since I've already commented at length on the main point, I will say that I agree we skydivers can use the word safe to define an acceptable level of risk when talking to each other. Examples: "Is it safe to jump in these winds?" Fundamental answer = no (skydiving is not safe). Contextual answer = may be yes. I believe that is your point. If that is correct, I agree.

My side note? I don't believe that a 1:1 WL is "safe" for a student. But that is a subject for another thread . . .

Arrive Safely

John

[kevinwhelan 0]

Quote

The way this thread has gone - talking about the relative safety vs. danger of skydiving - came from the subject and main point of your original post. The comparison with driving also steered it that way. Your "side note" - the context in which skydivers use the word "safe" in their own discussions seems to be the point you are now trying to drive home.

Yes the thread has drifted into a safe v not safe because I was told in a number of posts that skydiving was not safe.
What my sidenote said was :

Quote

As a side note I think the argument of weather something is "safe" or not is a bit silly as it is relative it is like the question "is it far?"

I never said at any point in that post that skydiving was safe.
I wondered if people knew more people hurt on the roads or hurt in skydiving, and wether this had any relation to how they perceived the relative risks.

It was your reply that first said
Skydiving is not safe

That is why I went back to my sidenote on the use of the word safe
This was the only opinion I offered in that post

Quote

Examples: "Is it safe to jump in these winds?" Fundamental answer = no (skydiving is not safe). Contextual answer = may be yes. I believe that is your point. If that is correct, I agree.

This is my point, and from that saying skydiving is safe or not safe has no real value as "safe" is hardly ever used in it's fundamental state.
I just dont think it offers anything to a thread when you get a lot of posts telling someone that skydiving is not safe. Normaly 'not safe' implys don't do it. To me when you say skydiving is not safe it's kind of like saying to someone don't do it.

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[Ron 7]

Quote

Deep diving. Basically it is the same:
- you have to do something to survive (swim out, probably making decompression stops), and if you don't do it, or do it really wrong, you will be dead as soon as the oxygen supply is empty;

- you rely on your equipment to survive, and some equipment failures are fatal;

Except you have time. If you work on thirds you have more time than you went for to get out. That is not the same as falling 8 thousand feet to try and stop in the last two grand. Also you can turn the dive at anytime.

My last SCUBA dive went like crap. But even then I had time to work out my problems.

Quote

You can even say the same with flying the plane

Except you don't wait till the last second to stop the chain.

I understand what you are saying...but I still don't know a sport that you start a chain of events and then at the last second have to perform or you die.

I agree no sport is safe.

Correction BASE is the same...But I consider that skydiving for people who are scared of flying

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

This is exactly what I mean. Nothing is really safe. So we either not use the word or we define it in relation to its context.
As in, I would say a wingloading of 1:1 is safe for a student but 2:1 would not be safe.
Everyone seems happy enough to say skydiving is dangerous. But so is everything else. So this statement really has no meaning if taken literaly. Danger must be viewed in context.

OK but there is a big difference between is a 1.1 WL safe for a student vs 2.1? And is skydiving safe?

The first is a comparison, the second is not.

Skydiving is not safe based on the very basics of what we are doing. And anyone that tries to claim it is safe is wrong. Now, using context we can say that I am safe under a 1.7 to 1 loaded Stiletto where a student would not be. But both of us are not really safe jumping it. I just have a higher probability of success.

The same could be said for winds, altitudes, size of formations ect.

For there to be acomparison, you need something to compare skydiving too. Saying skydiving is safer than Base jumping, nakid, through a ring of fire, over a pit of sea bass with lazers is kinda a no brainer.

But to claim that either Base or skydiving itself is safe is not really logical.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

How about looking at it this way, the basic safety requirements of a skydive are something like, exit at the right time, fall stable, pull at the right time, identify any mals, possibly operate a 2 step emergency system, find an open space, flare

That’s really over simplified and not very informative.

How many times have you spotted for a 4-plane formation with 60 mph upper winds 110 degrees to the ground winds? It involves a bit more then “exit at the right time.”

When I said “work load” I was referring to the overall mental and physical activity required to make a 60 second skydive. All the small little moves to fall stable, turn the point, make the dock or chase the space ball. All this must be done while traveling at 100 to 200 mph while avoiding the other bodies in the air also traveling at 100 to 200 mph. The only road map you have to follow is what happened during the dirt dive back on the ground. Since there has yet to be a perfect skydive you have to constantly update that road map as the moves of yourself or others change the course of the dive. Again this must be done while going at warp speed in 3 dimensions. Speed up, slow down, and go right, go left, hold and track like hell. And minor miscalculation by you or someone else can at best screw up the dive and at the worst kill you or your buddy.

This is before you even think of deploying your canopy, which lead to a whole other bag of worms.

The only time I have seen a jump fall into what you call “basic” was during testing and “torso dummies” preformed them.

If you continue to believe that skydiving is a simple thing I predict the time will come when it will bit you in the butt. jmo

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jakee 1,280]

Quote

How many times have you spotted for a 4-plane formation with 60 mph upper winds 110 degrees to the ground winds?

None. How many times has the average weekend jumper ever done that?

When you continue to add layers of effort and complexity to any sporting activity it becomes incredibly demanding - could you take a top 4-way competitor and say, an F1 driver, a world cup downhill skier and a big wave surfer and show me that the 4-way guy is performing at a higher level than the others?

Since only a tiny portion of skydivers will ever reach that level its not so relevant anyway. Take a look round the average DZ at the weekend, how many of those jumpers are really paying attention to what they do in the air? Half of them are just busy geeking the camera. Look at the people who are being trained. How dumb or 'not with it' would you have to be to get kicked off an FJC? How unfit would you have to be for the JM to refuse to dispatch you?

I'm not saying skydiving is safe, I'm not saying its easy to do well. I'm just saying that putting us up at the pinnacle seems both unwarranted and, well, slightly arrogant.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

None. How many times has the average weekend jumper ever done that?

How many even know how to spot and that is as basic as you can get?

Quote

pinnacle seems both unwarranted and, well, slightly arrogant.

As I posted, that is "just my opinion". Weather you agree or not is up to you.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals