Who is negligent for poor gear rental?

[Pubwoof 0]

Just an opinion, but the terms "self-supervised" and/or "self-jumpmastered" are too literal as they apply to unlicensed jumpers in actual practice. I say this because coaches are required to perform no fewer than three solid gear checks before letting any student jump out (at gear-up, before boarding, and before exiting). Even when not on a "coach jump", my home DZ requires the same treatment for anybody who is not yet licensed. This may differ from DZ to DZ, but all jumpers are effectively considered to be students until they earn their A-license where I'm from. The main difference during this transitional period between student-status and being licensed is that they're told it is their responsibility to make sure a rating holder checks their gear as required. While I require all of my students to perform "checks of three" whenever I'm checking their gear, they are not necessarily competent to do so until such time as they're signed off for same on the proficiency card. I understand that practices vary between dropzones, but it seems strange to me that we should fault any unlicensed jumper for missing something a rating holder had three chances to catch.

The above notwithstanding, I ultimately agree with AggieDave in that we don't have enough reliable information to make any definitive judgements in regards to where our fingers should now be pointing. With what we do know, my advice for the jumper in question is to ALWAYS rely on yourself to make sure your gear is jumpable. If you don't know how, ALWAYS seek out somebody who does. If you can't do that, ALWAYS stay on the ground. My advice for the dropzone in question is to NEVER allow an unlicensed jumper to exit your aircraft until a trusted rating holder checks their gear three times. Anything less out of either party is simply a recipe for disaster.

I'm concerned that someone fresh from a potentially life-threatening seems to be more worried about the cost of some lost handles than the underlying problem involving....what's the word I'm looking for?..., hmmm, oh yeah, DEATH! If this is nothing more than sour grapes about money, these parties need to figure it out amongst themselves. If they can't, who is the bigger idiot? The jumper who'd quit such a great sport, or the dropzone that would lose a potentially long-term customer. I can't decide. Maybe we should take another poll.

The glass isn't always half-full OR half-empty. Sometimes, the glass is just too damn big.

[mjosparky 3]

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All of the known facts are given. Considering the opinion of the perspective being persued, current divulgence of facts are adequate.

While trying to be very casual about the facts your motives are very transparent.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JJEXP 0]

...and now the facts...as I work for said rental agency, and have jumped said rig previously.

Yes there was a rental agreement, which clearly states that the renter is responsible for all costs involving damaged or lost gear.

The rig was received unpacked, and was taken to a dz packer to be hooked up, and packed

No A liscense, but the jumper is cleared for self supervision.

Unsure of what instructor had said, but others have said the gear is unacceptable, which I know to be untrue. The rig in question had the boc replaced several months ago, and I was the first to put several test jumps on it, before we released it back into the rental "fleet." The hard pull is blamed on the boc, and the supposed fact that the pc was balled up at the opening of the boc. Having jumped the rig several times, this boc is no different from any other, and I believe the packing error is to blame.

The origional poster is not trolling, simply trying to find out what the general population thinks, after our little "discussion" over dinner

[AFFI 0]

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Unsure of what instructor had said, but others have said the gear is unacceptable

Unacceptable compared to what? I know some of the student gear I have seen is really ratty compared to my personal gear and even though I wouldn’t jump some of them, that don’t deem them unworthy to jump. Has a rigger deemed this gear not fit for jumping?

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The hard pull is blamed on the boc, and the supposed fact that the pc was balled up at the opening of the boc.

Yup, that will do the trick. Anytime I jump gear that I did not pack myself I always like to putt the PC and bridle out and stow the bridle and repack the PC myself, certainly I have saved myself a couple of headaches by doing this myself over the years. If I ever experience a difficult extraction of the PC (hard pull) or a PCIT as a result of a packing error, no one to blame but myself.

That being said, the jumper is responsible for rental gear at every DZ I have been to and I agree with that to a certain extent. Canopy hooked up backwards or something like that would not be the jumpers fault.

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New jumper loses handles and other gear during the jump.

This quote was in the original post. If the malfunction was a total, did the jumper cutaway first and loose the cutaway handle as well? And what was the “other gear” that was lost?

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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[JJEXP 0]

Unacceptable compared to what I have no idea. The rig is by no means clapped out or ratty. It is a javelin in good condition. The dz rigger who does a complete inspection of our gear at every repack has no problems with it, and was the one who installed the boc.

The jumper cut away first and lost both handles. Reserve freebag/bridle, and pilot chute were lost as well

[AFFI 0]

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Unacceptable compared to what I have no idea. The rig is by no means clapped out or ratty. It is a javelin in good condition. The dz rigger who does a complete inspection of our gear at every repack has no problems with it, and was the one who installed the boc.

Sounds like a case of "everybody has an opinion"

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The jumper cut away first and lost both handles. Reserve freebag/bridle, and pilot chute were lost as well

Perhaps the jumper needs a review in a malfunction trainer with a solo freefall instructor as to how to correctly handle a total malfunction. Many jumpers stop training for malfunctions after acquisition of their “A” license which is a huge mistake - encourage this person to continue training.

To me, in my small, narrow mind this is the jumpers responsibility to replace the handles (one of which shouldn’t have been extracted) and the lost gear. After all, this is a packing error that should have been caught during the pre-flight (the way I teach them) gear inspection. And don’t forget the case of beer for the beer fridge and an appropriate hook up for the rigger as well.

Last but certainly not least, even though the jumper cutaway a total before going to the reserve, a pat on the back for living through what must have been a very exciting situation. If there is video of this situation transpiring I certainly would like to see it.

_

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AggieDave 6]

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ven though the jumper cutaway a total before going to the reserve, a pat on the back for living through what must have been a very exciting situation.

Hold on for a second. Many schools teach a single method of malfunction drills for a reason. Its based on Hick's Law. Is it there? Is it square Is it steerable. If you answer no and its a malfunction, not a nusiance, then look grab, look grab, peel pull, peel pull.

That is independant of the responsibility of the cost of replacement for the parts lost, but something that every instructor should know about (Hick's Law).

Hicks law primarily relates to combat and reactions to which; however, the same is applied when a person is presented with a fight or flight scenerio. A malfunction drill is a fight or flight scenerio. The same bodily functions take place: a dump of adreniline, narrowing of vision, loss of fine motor skills, etc. Thus Hicks Law is in full effect.

http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/hickslaw.htm

That is some reading to help get those started that have never heard of Hicks Law before. There is much much more written on Hick's Law, a google search will return thousands of returns on the subject.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mjosparky 3]

Thank you, that clears up some of the questions.

But some important ones still remain.

For one, who might you be?

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The origional poster is not trolling, simply trying to find out what the general population thinks,

I would call that trolling for an answer that will support his position regardless of what the facts might indicate.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Squeak 17]

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So it's possible they weren't licensed yet. In which case, does that make a difference in anyone's opinion?

No. Once someone is cleared to self-jumpmaster it is assumed that they know how to take care of themselves. Checking the gear prior to putting it on is part of taking care of one's self.

Exactly, my real concern is that this jumper is only just of student status, and yet seems complacent (or unable) to check their own gear

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[justnalias 0]

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You're kidding, right? The "facts" are as muddled and misleadingly stated as they possibly can be.

No. I am not kidding. All of the facts that I know of (for sure) are there. And all of the facts that are useful to my answer are in here. If you wish to discuss this from a new perspective (one that holds up in the US court of law or something), then find out the more facts for yourself and start your own thread.

How do you know that the facts are muddled and misleading. Were you there? Are you the jumper, the instructor, the packer, the gear store employee, or an employee at this DZ, or perhaps a DZ local who is in on this? Please help me understand your intuitive nature on understanding the situation. Please let us know how you have the ability to see things that are not being reported in this thread.

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You still haven't answered if it was a student coached jump (unlicensed jumper) or a licensed jumper getting coaching

New jumper off of student status was mentioned. Unlicensed jumper. Coach jump. The only thing I did not mention was the licensing.

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You haven't stated what made the rig unacceptable to jump.

This was mentioned also. Instructor deemed rig "unjumpable" due to a hard pull at the fault of the gear and packing.

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You haven't stated if the instructor making the statement is a rigger or not.

I don't know. But he's a highly experienced instructor...rigger...i don't know...maybe.

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You haven't stated what the rental agreement was.

i don't know. it doesn't matter for the answer that i seek. start your own thread if you are looking for that.

now, if you respond to this post, please take a muscle relaxer first.

[ladyskydiver 0]

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Coach jump.

Based on the above statement (and the previously mentioned 20 jumps), the student has been skydiving long enough to know what a proper gear check entails and should be doing it EVERY SINGLE TIME they go to put their gear on and again after they put their gear on to ensure that nothing came "loose," etc. after having put it on.

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Instructor deemed rig "unjumpable" due to a hard pull at the fault of the gear and packing.

The instructor may have deemd it "unjumpable." However, the coach student should have checked their own gear PRIOR to putting it on and again PRIOR to boarding the plane and again PRIOR to leaving the plane. If they had any questions/concerns on their gear and the way it felt, looked, etc., they should have brought it up with the instructor/coach PRIOR to putting it on.

The student screwed up. Luckily, they are around to learn from this lesson. Hopefully, they do.

Edited to add:

You pay a packer...you take your chances. You don't like the odds, do it yourself. And at 20 jumps, the student should know how to pack (even if they choose not to do it themselves) and be able to watch the pack job and ask questions or make comments if something seems out of whack.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[AFFI 0]

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Many schools teach a single method of malfunction drills for a reason. Its based on Hick's Law. Is it there? Is it square Is it steerable. If you answer no and its a malfunction, not a nusiance, then look grab, look grab, peel pull, peel pull.

You are correct Dave; there are different ways to teach reacting to varying malfunctions.

The jumper may have very well utilized the method they were trained with... Where I teach, we train the techniques that an “experienced” jumper would use and I have seen a couple students with less than 10 skydives react to a total (hard pull) as a total and went straight for the reserve.

At any rate, continued training is always a good idea.

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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[jlmiracle 7]

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You're kidding, right? The "facts" are as muddled and misleadingly stated as they possibly can be.

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No. I am not kidding. All of the facts that I know of (for sure) are there. And all of the facts that are useful to my answer are in here

maybe now, but they weren't provided by you.

Jumper is responsible.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AggieDave 6]

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This was mentioned also. Instructor deemed rig "unjumpable" due to a hard pull at the fault of the gear and packing.

Ok, packing error.

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All of the facts that I know of (for sure) are there. And all of the facts that are useful to my answer are in here.

Now they are, due to someone else posting the rest of the facts.

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How do you know that the facts are muddled and misleading.

That's an interesting statement, from your perspective it may not seem this way, but to everyone else reading this thread it has been painfully obvious that you were withholding certain information about the incident to help your belief or position.

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i don't know. it doesn't matter for the answer that i seek. start your own thread if you are looking for that.

Actually, it does matter. If you entered into a contract stated that you were responsible for lost gear, then you're responsible. Period. If the contract stated that you had to pay 25% of the lost gear, then you just pay 25% and so forth.


Well, eitherway the rest of the facts to this situation has made it to the thread from another poster. You had a hard-pull/no-pull due to incorrect packing of the PC. That's not the renter's fault, its the jumper's fault, the jumper owes the gear shop whatever was lost during the ensuing malfunction.

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now, if you respond to this post, please take a muscle relaxer first.

Nope, just because its something you don't want to hear, it doesn't mean I'm all wound up.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[justnalias 0]

No. I am not kidding. All of the facts that I know of (for sure) are there. And all of the facts that are useful to my answer are in here

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maybe now, but they weren't provided by you. Jumper is responsible.

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to both of you. yes they are. read what was written. read. read with intent. the question is being answered and i am thankful for the results however they turn out. this is an unnnnbias poll about a situation to which the facts have been provided. the answer means liTT-le. provided, were the facts as i knew them and as i saw fit. go get an education, read more, and perhaps you will realize that the world, skydiving, and this forum is not about your life perspective or anyone carrrring about youuuuuuu. your opinions provide me with only one confirmation. -that this is a very about yoouuuuu place where youuuuu mean everything and everyone else meeeeans nothing. that is why you are perfect for skydiving - because, hey mom, look no hands - no plane - look at meeeee.

either way, thank you for your opinions they've been noted.

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[billvon 2,436]

Please take such nonsense to Bonfire (if you feel you must post it at all.)

[mjosparky 3]

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Please take such nonsense to Bonfire (if you feel you must post it at all.)

And Bill is being very gentle with you. Others would deal with you in a fare more appropriate manner.

Your attitude reminds me of what someone once called the “Entitlement Generation”.

I wish you luck in skydiving, you will need it.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DougH 270]

Are you planning on posting a new thread the next time you fail to properly do a gear check and you kill yourself?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[mjosparky 3]

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Are you planning on posting a new thread the next time you fail to properly do a gear check and you kill yourself?

No, I will leave that up to you. Just remember to spell my name right.

But I will start a new thread if I jump someone else’s gear, lose it and try to beat them out paying for what I lost.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Scenario:

Person just off student status (20-jumps) rents gear from gear store at DZ. Main is unpacked when received by new jumper. New jumper brings gear to packing mat. New jumper goes on skydive with instructor at DZ and gets a video. Hard pull occurs with rented gear. Instructor comes down, inspects gear, and confirms gear to be unacceptable to jump. New jumper loses handles and other gear during the jump.

Who should be covering cost of replacing the gear? "
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This is like the cold hard side of skydiving ..dollars and danger mixed up with inexperience and incident.

Bummer about the handles and gear (freebag was it?)
If nothing else some of the replies here show just how strongly some feel about accepting personal responsibility.

I barrel- rolled a hang-glider into the ground during student training and pretty well fully bent it. Didn't cost me a cent and no hurt either. Still get a good laugh every time I think about it. Ha ha the instructor was a jerk and shouldn't have pushed me so far so fast. He paid for his mistake. My responsibility? Na.

Oh !ALWAYS! check your pin and p/c it really is too easy. Next thing you're checking others as well.

[DougH 270]

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No, I will leave that up to you. Just remember to spell my name right.

I don't think I will need to post one for you...

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[justnalias 0]

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Bummer about the handles and gear (freebag was it?)

I think so. Handles plus other stuff was $400.

[Trae 1]

in reply to "I think so. Handles plus other stuff was $400. "
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Sounds ott .....close to the price of a 2nd hand canopy or old rig even.

[mark 104]

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in reply to "I think so. Handles plus other stuff was $400. "
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Sounds ott .....close to the price of a 2nd hand canopy or old rig even.

I don't know what rig the OP is writing about, but this is from the Mirage price list (other manufacturers similar):

... freebag and bridle: $80
... reserve pilot chute: $120
... metal-handle reserve ripcord: $95
... cutaway handle: $40

Total: $335, which leaves $65 for shipping and the reserve repack.

Mark