koz2000 1 #1 September 3, 2004 Hey guys, A guy visiting our DZ rented a student rig and decided to do some sit-flying, even though the gear was not freefly friendly at all. First seven or eight jumps he had no problem, however one jump we saw a cutaway and a reserve out at about 7k'. When he landed his shoe and sock were missing and his ankle had swollen quite a bit. His PC had come out (due to the worn spandex) and his main had deployed between his legs. It ripped several attachment points on his main canopy and actually had some damage to the harness. The ER said it was just some soft tissue damage. A few days later this is what his foot looked like. (see pics attached) Bottom line, please people use good equipment to freefly in, even if it has been ok for a few jumps. . He has third degree burns on the inside of his foot from the friction of the bridle and lines. He's already had three surgeries, and will probably have more. This guy was LUCKY These photos are pretty gross. Please don't be eating. D.______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #2 September 3, 2004 OMG!! Those are gross!!!!Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #3 September 3, 2004 Quotewe saw a reserve out at about 7k' That is a major ouch... Amazing people still try to FF in old gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #4 September 3, 2004 QuoteAmazing people still try to FF in old gear. Not really, they are just uninformed. People only lightly suggest, that jumping in proper epuipment is advisable and don't really do anything about it. I've flat out refused to jump with people using improperly equipped skydiving kits. One person looked at me dumfounded for about 10 seconds, but had enough experience to believe me. We then went over why it's bad to jump with a leg deploy Vector II. The photos have been bookmarked for educational purposes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #5 September 3, 2004 Oh my gosh, yikes! As a student looking for my first rig, I know that freeflying is definitely my ultimate goal. Should I be looking for freefly friendly gear even w/ my low jump #'s? I mean, this rig will hafta last me till I'm done with college. ( 2years) Sarah Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #6 September 3, 2004 QuoteShould I be looking for freefly friendly gear even w/ my low jump #'s? Without question.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #7 September 3, 2004 I don't know why student gear is'nt freefly friendly. Who is more likely to end up on their back or in other orientations then students?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,402 #8 September 3, 2004 >I don't know why student gear is'nt freefly friendly. Way back when, when students all jumped ripcords, they were extremely friendly - a ripcord is the ultimate freefly-friendly deployment system. Some student systems can be converted, and the ripcord configuration is freefly friendly, while the throwout (sometimes ROL, sometimes poorly protected BOC) is not that freefly friendly. This worked out OK because it was assumed that by the time they transitioned to throwout they could remain stable the entire jump. Nowadays, many of those rigs get used as throwouts from jump 1, which is not as optimal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,402 #9 September 3, 2004 >Should I be looking for freefly friendly gear even w/ my low jump #'s? Yes, but pretty much all modern gear is. There are very few ROL deployment systems or velcro-closed-only protector flaps. If you bought very old (read: cheap) gear then you might have an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #10 September 3, 2004 *** His PC had come out (due to the worn spandex) and his main had deployed between his legs. QuoteMaybe it's time to replace that worn spandex? That could come out prematurely on a belly jump or while climbing out, even. Less likely, I know, but still not a good situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites krkeenan 0 #11 September 3, 2004 QuoteHey guys, A guy visiting our DZ rented a student rig and decided to do some sit-flying, even though the gear was not freefly friendly at all. . If the DZ is renting out such crappy gear, they are really leaving themselves open to legal action. Sure, the ultimate responsibility for checking the equipment lies with the jumper, but the fact is that most people who rent gear are apt to be low-timers. It seems that the DZ has an "ethical" responsibility to give them something that won't kill them. This brings to mind the adjustable Javelin. These harnesses have killed two students so far. Sunpath issued a grounding order for all of them until they could be inspected - but the inspection is by the owner and mostly meant to cover Sunpath. How many of those rigs are in use in marginal condition? Kevin====================== Seasons don't fear the Reaper, nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,402 #12 September 3, 2004 >If the DZ is renting out such crappy gear, they are really leaving >themselves open to legal action. Freefly unfriendly gear is not necessarily crappy gear. I have an older Racer that is serviceable for RW, but not good for freefly (poor bridle coverage, velcro closed main pin cover.) I would not have a problem with lending it to someone who wanted to do RW. If they decided to freefly with it - well, it's their life. >This brings to mind the adjustable Javelin. These harnesses have > killed two students so far. Agreed, but in one case, the harness was cut before the jump. No harness/container system is proof against sabotage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #13 September 4, 2004 Quote>Should I be looking for freefly friendly gear even w/ my low jump #'s? Yes, but pretty much all modern gear is. There are very few ROL deployment systems or velcro-closed-only protector flaps. If you bought very old (read: cheap) gear then you might have an issue. By that you mean all new gear for sale, right? Lots of older containers for sale that some gear shops marks as "not freefly friendly." What about the Vector II or the Eclipse - I think those represent quite a few of my jumps with student gear. It's definitely been nice renting from the gear shops. Changed my buying timeframe and choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crzjp20 0 #14 September 4, 2004 ok stupid wuestion butwhat makes a gear free fly friendly. Is the riser protection, and bridal protection? I have a 96 infinity abouviously im not ttaking it on any freefly since i am so low on jumps, but i am just curious.... as fo the coment about boc's on student gear, that is all i have used in my training. Once i got my A i wernt to a dz rented gear and then had to figure out the rip cord thing.... wich was nothing, but i had never jumped that before.-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,402 #15 September 4, 2004 >but what makes a gear free fly friendly. ROL is generally not freefly friendly; there's lots of exposed bridle to catch air. Velcro riser and pin covers, exposed main bridle - bad. Loops for a butt strap - good. >as fo the coment about boc's on student gear, that is all i have >used in my training. Once i got my A i wernt to a dz rented gear >and then had to figure out the rip cord thing.... Note that BOC refers to placement; ripcord is a deployment method. Ripcords can be BOC, hip or ROL; throwouts can be BOC, ROL or belly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites koz2000 1 #16 September 4, 2004 As far as why the DZ was renting "crappy" gear - It was a club that rented the gear, not the DZ ( I guess I should have made that clear in my original post). This post was not intended to point fingers at dz's, s&ta's, dzo, clubs, instructors, etc.. It was simply a good photo evidence of what can happen. EVERY Dz that I have been to, I have seen people freeflying (or attempting to freefly) with gear comparable to what this guy was using. As Bill posted many rigs are ok for RW but not safe for freeflying. Like I said earlier, he had made seven or eight jumps before this happened. If it was "unsafe as to incur legal action," he would have had the ad on the first jump. I jumped a pull-out for most of my jumps, since I didn't like any BOC, until I got a micron with the spandura. I did a week of training with a skydiving team that has the largest budget, the most comprehensive rigging section, and probably the newest rigs; and a jumper had an AD in exactly the same situation. The problem is they were used to rw and demo's not freeflying. Almost everyone on the team has over 3000 jumps and upwards of 15000 jumps. But they nor their rigging section changed the boc. I just want everyone to be able to crack open a beer at the end of the day, and talk about the good day of jumping, NOT to be sitting in a hospital room. Blue ones Dave______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nael 0 #17 September 4, 2004 Those photos are a real eye opener. I was expecting to see a few line burns or something! I have just started jumping my own gear. I'm not freeflying yet, but I got my rigger to make my rig freefly friendly just cause it seems a whole lot safer in general, plus I'll be freeflying in another 100 jumps! Some of my friends who have also just started jumping in the past few months (attempt to!)freefly in the student rigs, I'll try my best to talk them out of it next time!www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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krkeenan 0 #11 September 3, 2004 QuoteHey guys, A guy visiting our DZ rented a student rig and decided to do some sit-flying, even though the gear was not freefly friendly at all. . If the DZ is renting out such crappy gear, they are really leaving themselves open to legal action. Sure, the ultimate responsibility for checking the equipment lies with the jumper, but the fact is that most people who rent gear are apt to be low-timers. It seems that the DZ has an "ethical" responsibility to give them something that won't kill them. This brings to mind the adjustable Javelin. These harnesses have killed two students so far. Sunpath issued a grounding order for all of them until they could be inspected - but the inspection is by the owner and mostly meant to cover Sunpath. How many of those rigs are in use in marginal condition? Kevin====================== Seasons don't fear the Reaper, nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,402 #12 September 3, 2004 >If the DZ is renting out such crappy gear, they are really leaving >themselves open to legal action. Freefly unfriendly gear is not necessarily crappy gear. I have an older Racer that is serviceable for RW, but not good for freefly (poor bridle coverage, velcro closed main pin cover.) I would not have a problem with lending it to someone who wanted to do RW. If they decided to freefly with it - well, it's their life. >This brings to mind the adjustable Javelin. These harnesses have > killed two students so far. Agreed, but in one case, the harness was cut before the jump. No harness/container system is proof against sabotage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #13 September 4, 2004 Quote>Should I be looking for freefly friendly gear even w/ my low jump #'s? Yes, but pretty much all modern gear is. There are very few ROL deployment systems or velcro-closed-only protector flaps. If you bought very old (read: cheap) gear then you might have an issue. By that you mean all new gear for sale, right? Lots of older containers for sale that some gear shops marks as "not freefly friendly." What about the Vector II or the Eclipse - I think those represent quite a few of my jumps with student gear. It's definitely been nice renting from the gear shops. Changed my buying timeframe and choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crzjp20 0 #14 September 4, 2004 ok stupid wuestion butwhat makes a gear free fly friendly. Is the riser protection, and bridal protection? I have a 96 infinity abouviously im not ttaking it on any freefly since i am so low on jumps, but i am just curious.... as fo the coment about boc's on student gear, that is all i have used in my training. Once i got my A i wernt to a dz rented gear and then had to figure out the rip cord thing.... wich was nothing, but i had never jumped that before.-------------------------------------------------- Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,402 #15 September 4, 2004 >but what makes a gear free fly friendly. ROL is generally not freefly friendly; there's lots of exposed bridle to catch air. Velcro riser and pin covers, exposed main bridle - bad. Loops for a butt strap - good. >as fo the coment about boc's on student gear, that is all i have >used in my training. Once i got my A i wernt to a dz rented gear >and then had to figure out the rip cord thing.... Note that BOC refers to placement; ripcord is a deployment method. Ripcords can be BOC, hip or ROL; throwouts can be BOC, ROL or belly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #16 September 4, 2004 As far as why the DZ was renting "crappy" gear - It was a club that rented the gear, not the DZ ( I guess I should have made that clear in my original post). This post was not intended to point fingers at dz's, s&ta's, dzo, clubs, instructors, etc.. It was simply a good photo evidence of what can happen. EVERY Dz that I have been to, I have seen people freeflying (or attempting to freefly) with gear comparable to what this guy was using. As Bill posted many rigs are ok for RW but not safe for freeflying. Like I said earlier, he had made seven or eight jumps before this happened. If it was "unsafe as to incur legal action," he would have had the ad on the first jump. I jumped a pull-out for most of my jumps, since I didn't like any BOC, until I got a micron with the spandura. I did a week of training with a skydiving team that has the largest budget, the most comprehensive rigging section, and probably the newest rigs; and a jumper had an AD in exactly the same situation. The problem is they were used to rw and demo's not freeflying. Almost everyone on the team has over 3000 jumps and upwards of 15000 jumps. But they nor their rigging section changed the boc. I just want everyone to be able to crack open a beer at the end of the day, and talk about the good day of jumping, NOT to be sitting in a hospital room. Blue ones Dave______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nael 0 #17 September 4, 2004 Those photos are a real eye opener. I was expecting to see a few line burns or something! I have just started jumping my own gear. I'm not freeflying yet, but I got my rigger to make my rig freefly friendly just cause it seems a whole lot safer in general, plus I'll be freeflying in another 100 jumps! Some of my friends who have also just started jumping in the past few months (attempt to!)freefly in the student rigs, I'll try my best to talk them out of it next time!www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
