Why Downsize?

[Airman1270 0]

This is directed mostly at newer jumpers, however you'd like to define it. (This is prompted by the recent series of threads by that guy with 75 jumps who's hell-bent determined to prove he can handle a 120-something.)

Why do you want to downsize? What's the point, and why is it important to you?

A couple of years ago I "downsized" to a 220, plenty fast enough for my skill level & current jump schedule. Fortunately I have no desire to become a world-class swooper, as I'd have no business flying some medium-size anything, let alone one of those tiny things that look so cool when other people are landing them.

I'm interested in the mind-set among younger jumpers who see downsizing not as a possible option, but as a milestone no less important than one's graduation jump, first pack job, first 8-way, etc.

If you see downsizing as another inevitable step in your skydiving career, the odds are you'll feel pressure (even if only from within) to downsize, regardless of whether you even need to do so. At this point the choice appears to be 1) Absorb as much information, guidance, and training you can while beginning to downsize gradually & safely, or 2) Jump in with both feet and show you're ready by going through the motions of seeking advice while listening mainly to the people who are telling you that you can do it. (After all, it worked for them, right?)

Meanwhile, option #3 sits forgotten on the shelf. That is, continue flying a larger canopy because there's nothing wrong with flying a little slower and landing last, all the while enjoying that extra safety margine if the wind picks up, or you have to navigate a tight out landing following a bad spot, etc.

On a related issue, Has anyone ever experienced any criticism for jumping a larger main? (This includes good-natured kidding among friends, as well as those more hostile comments, raised eyebrows, etc.) Just wondering whether the peer-pressure thing is alive & well.

Your thoughts?

Cheers,
Jon S.

[Mr17Hz 1]

Quote

This is directed mostly at newer jumpers, however you'd like to define it. (This is prompted by the recent series of threads by that guy with 75 jumps who's hell-bent determined to prove he can handle a 120-something.)

Why do you want to downsize? What's the point, and why is it important to you?

A couple of years ago I "downsized" to a 220, plenty fast enough for my skill level & current jump schedule. Fortunately I have no desire to become a world-class swooper, as I'd have no business flying some medium-size anything, let alone one of those tiny things that look so cool when other people are landing them.

I'm interested in the mind-set among younger jumpers who see downsizing not as a possible option, but as a milestone no less important than one's graduation jump, first pack job, first 8-way, etc.

If you see downsizing as another inevitable step in your skydiving career, the odds are you'll feel pressure (even if only from within) to downsize, regardless of whether you even need to do so. At this point the choice appears to be 1) Absorb as much information, guidance, and training you can while beginning to downsize gradually & safely, or 2) Jump in with both feet and show you're ready by going through the motions of seeking advice while listening mainly to the people who are telling you that you can do it. (After all, it worked for them, right?)

Meanwhile, option #3 sits forgotten on the shelf. That is, continue flying a larger canopy because there's nothing wrong with flying a little slower and landing last, all the while enjoying that extra safety margine if the wind picks up, or you have to navigate a tight out landing following a bad spot, etc.

On a related issue, Has anyone ever experienced any criticism for jumping a larger main? (This includes good-natured kidding among friends, as well as those more hostile comments, raised eyebrows, etc.) Just wondering whether the peer-pressure thing is alive & well.

Your thoughts?

Cheers,
Jon S.

Great post.

I have seen peer pressure towards people that have canopies that are too large, although in at least one case I feel that it was called for. Landing off the airport 1 out of 5 landings because you can't cut through the wind can be dangerous. This person had a wing loading that was much lighter than 1:1.

Matt Christenson

[email protected]
http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software.

[apollard24 0]

That was one of main reasons for downsizing. I was loading my canopy so light that I couldnt get any penetration on semi-windy days. I find now I can get some penetration when before I couldnt. I dont know if other light weight jumpers have the same problems I was having, maybe not.

Breathe out so I can breathe you in...

[DougH 270]

Good question.

I was at around 1:1 from jump one as a student on a 210. I had good accuracy on that canopy, good landings, I felt confident and not twitchy. I never got to experience a big 280!!!

I downsized to a 190 at my instructors permission around jump 15 because I had a free rig to jump from my school skydiving club. I did well under that. I was able to jump more because I had my own gear to use, I was more current and got more canopy time.

Then I purchased my own gear with a 170. I was worried that it would be a little to much at first, but my instructors we confident that it would be a conservative step down, I also had the whole deal already paid for. I was under my new gear at 35 jumps.

I have been jumping the 170 ever since, just under 1.2:1, I have over 80 jumps on the canopy. Every jump I learn something new about flying it. I will fly it for another 200 jumps, I don't have any desire to go smaller any time soon.

I think a certain amount of downsizing can be done as long as it isn't crazy, and it is overseen by an instructor. Or maybe my progression was a little crazy, 40 square feet in 35 jumps, and I was just lucky.

Either way I am happy the way it turned out.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[adobelover 0]

I downsized from a 262 Rascal to a 220 Triathlon to a 190 Triathlon which I bought brand new and it will probably be the last canopy I ever purchase as I am old and my bones don't heal as fast as they used to. I am interested in having FUN and landing as close to the dz and as safely as possible!

_________________________________________


Old age ain't no place for sissies!

[AFFI 0]

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On a related issue, Has anyone ever experienced any criticism for jumping a larger main? (This includes good-natured kidding among friends, as well as those more hostile comments, raised eyebrows, etc.)

I’ve been ribbed about jumping a “student canopy” (Stiletto 135 at a 1.7WL) by my colleagues. Probably because I am very proficient on this wing, have flown some 100ish canopies quite fine and capable of safely downsizing to just about anything I want.

But at the end of the day, I can make really long swoops on the Stiletto 135, can put it down in a very tight landing area when the chips are down, make really low avoidance flat turns safely etcetera - and bottom line is I have plenty of fun where I am at.

I do not see giving up the little extra margin of safety to go a little faster, make a little longer of a swoop or to be cool.
There have been times where I have been appreciative of that small, extra margin of safety.

So, I’ll just keep flying my “student canopy”…
-

Edit to add: Stating the size of your canopy is only one piece of the information and does not tell the whole story without stating the WL as well.
A 220 can still be loaded heavily (yes, smaller lines on the smaller canopies etc) but still gives a more complete picture stating your WL)...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[ntrprnr 0]

Good post.

I'm on a Safire 2 229 right now. I'm just at 1:1 out the door. I've no real need to downsize right now - At 121 jumps, I'm still learning my canopy. Maybe at some point, I'll try a 190. But I think of the canopy flight as the "safety first" part of the skydive, and the freefall as the "fun" part of the skydive. I don't need to do anything that limits my safety. And hey - getting down last gives you a LOT more room. :)

_______________
"Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?"
"Even in freefall, I have commitment issues."

[Katherine 0]

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Tall the while enjoying that extra safety margine if the wind picks up

Not so true if you would then go backwards.

I think I downsized pretty sensibly, student kit on RAPS, 280s loaded at what, 0.6 or something? (with kit on 150lbs) Then about 4 jumps on a 200, 30ish on a 190, 30ish on a 170 then my own pilot 150 at 90 jumps loaded at 1.03 lbs/ft² according too the wingloading thing on my profile. and here I plan to stay.
I really don't think loading at 1.03 was excessive at 90 jumps, and it isn't now at 140 jumps. Howeer, if I hadn't had free uni kit hire, I would probably have bought a 170 after about 20 jumps on the 190.

I think the attitude you describe isn't totally as prevalent as you immagane. at my dz a few people about the same level as me (all much heavier males) were saying be very cautious on a 150 (although they were oftern loading their 170s much higher).
I haven't actually seen anyone off student status go racing for small canopy (although I havn't been around very long). Perhaps economics of renting a rig while downsizing is the real issue.

Leeds University Skydiving Club
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk

[tbrown 26]

I jump a 210 Pilot, which as large as they make that canopy. But I'm also a big guy and load it at about 1.2, which is definitely enough for decent penetration into the wind and beginning to approach the zone where things start moving faster.

I did jump a 190 for a while, was supposed to have got a 210 main with the rig I was buying, but it was delivered with a 190 (Spectre). I made the choice to give it a go and really liked the 190 a lot, for about 32 jumps. Then I got a thundering no winder on a hot day and made one dumb mistake that 180'd my foot, broke my fib in two places and almost destroyed my ankle, which had to be pinned for the next four months. I can't really say that it was the 190 that did it to me and I did a dumb thing. But the fact that I went to almost a 1.3 load with less than 40 jumps (after returning to the sport from a 22 year layoff), I'd consider my accident a good illustration of what can happen from downsizing too quickly. And I got off easy, I didn't hook it or end up crippled or dead.

A smaller canopy really is a lot more fun and most of the time you can handle them well enough you'll even wonder what the fuss is all about. But it just takes that one time in a hundred that things are less than ideal and moving just fast enough that you may not have the judgement you need to do the right thing. I did just great for 32 jumps at a 1.3 loading, # 33 got me. Since then, on a somewhat larger canopy, 160 more jumps and having taken a canopy course, I could probably go back to a 190 and do just fine. I haven't got the money for a canopy anyway, so this year I'll just stick with the 210 to the point I can land it with my eyes closed. besides, I'm "old school", I still think a parachute's supposed to SLOW me down.


Funny thing is in the old F-111 days, a 210 would've been considered a "mid size" canopy.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[ntrprnr 0]

Remind me to share one day what happens when you drop 30 pounds over the winter then flare like you were still 30 pounds heavier. You gain surprising lift. As in, "OH SHIT" surprising lift.

_______________
"Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?"
"Even in freefall, I have commitment issues."

[Ms.sofaking 0]

I just bought a 170 .Down from I believe the 210 student rig.I was flying backward a lot.I plan on getting more accurate on that, and going to a 150. Which puts me closer to 1:1.I plan on staying there for some time.I was told you should be an expert on your canopy before you down size.Meaning there's nothing you can't comfortably do on it.So it will be some time before I'm off the 150.Everyone says it'll be sooner than I think.I'm in no hurry.I haven't even jumped my 170 yet.Winter sucks!

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

I downsize so that one day I may have enough experience to swoop. Some people enjoy a large slow canopy while others have aspirations to become a swooper. I plan to put a few hundred jumps on this canopy before I make my next move but evenually I will downsize again.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[cocheese 0]

my motto: If you can't land right in front of the pop machine, then maybe you shouldn't downsize.

Another motto: If you're bored with your landing speed, then go ahead and downsize.

I've been jumping the same canopy for years. And i like it.

[AFFI 0]

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my motto: If you can't land right in front of the pop machine, then maybe you shouldn't downsize.

I've been jumping the same canopy for years. And i like it.

Perfectly put...

Houz about being able to land in an area the size of the top of the pop machine consistently?

Wait, I'm a POP now, nevermind...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[JeepDiver 0]

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That was one of main reasons for downsizing. I was loading my canopy so light that I couldnt get any penetration on semi-windy days. I find now I can get some penetration when before I couldnt. I dont know if other light weight jumpers have the same problems I was having, maybe not.

As you well know I jump a rather large canopy and have jumped it in the strongest of wind days. I have stronger arms than Amanda. I can man-handle my front riser quite well.

Peer pressure, it's constant peer pressure, the comments are never ending, is the single reason I can think of that most new jumpers downsize. Even my container is huge. I need something tiny, something really small and then I would be better accepted by my fellow jumpers...... or at the least those comments would stop. I listen to none of it, never have listened to "peer pressure"

Hell I should be jumping a 170, better yet a 150 by now although I enjoy each landing I make. Had I done so I'm sure I may have broken myself considering the landings I can count on one hand that would have made the difference greater had my canopy been smaller than I'd truly felt I could fly.

My packer used to tell me this, then he was out for a few weeks because he nearly broke himself one day. I haven't heard him tell me it lately but I'm sure he will soon enough.

Now I'm the guy that lands accurately on target even in the strongest of winds. It took awhile and it's going to take me another 250 jumps to get better still.... I also know that I am in no rush. My personal student rig has served me very well so far.

Whats funny is I've changed my profile to reflect that I jump a 190.... it's what I tell everyone now... can you guys keep a secret though... it's really a Sabre2 210 I bought brand new. And I'm still happy with it.

• Quote

[Mr17Hz 1]

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That was one of main reasons for downsizing. I was loading my canopy so light that I couldnt get any penetration on semi-windy days. I find now I can get some penetration when before I couldnt. I dont know if other light weight jumpers have the same problems I was having, maybe not.

I would be interested to know what an experienced jumper (5000 jumps plus an instructors rating) would consider to be the highest wing loading at which point a moderate jumper would get the benefit of a little extra wind penetration and manuverability before adding the risks that go along with highly loaded canopies. I would guess this to be higher than 1:1 but not by too much.

Insight?

Matt Christenson

[email protected]
http://www.RealDropzone.com - A new breed of dropzone manifest software.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

On a related issue, Has anyone ever experienced any criticism for jumping a larger main? (This includes good-natured kidding among friends, as well as those more hostile comments, raised eyebrows, etc.) Just wondering whether the peer-pressure thing is alive & well.

Peer pressure is only alive if you listen to it. The main incentive I'd see to lose the 210 is that it's more work to pack, and if you're paying, some demand or expect an extra buck for it.

But yeah, I've heard some stupid comments, one for an experienced (world team) AFF-I.

The 210 is good to about 22mph winds, so not too much more need for pentration ability.

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

I finished AFF approximately 3 years ago in Colorado and with the altitude and lack of air density, the Sabre2 190 was fine. Then, when I transitioned to Florida (sea level and humid), I noticed that my canopy performance and wingloading justified my downsizing from the 190 to a Sabre2 170. For each canopy, I was on it for about 200 jumps. I'm now ready to transition once again to the Sabre2 150 for freefall as well as the Lightning 143 for CRW and the reason has a lot to do with being compatible with other canopies since successful formations result from compatible wingloading in CRW. With my wingloading, it's still not an agressive downsizing as some go from large canopies to pillowcases.

I do agree, however, that a jumper needs to be confident that they can land their current canopy in any type of wind condition as well as being able to land their canopy in someone's postage stamp backyard (in a landing out scenario) before downsizing.

_________________________________________

[overide 0]

I here ya i have 207 jumps after 3 years and i still jump my 210 pilot now i want a 210 or 190 sabre 2 cause i like the flight better but other than that why do you want to take the nice 5 - 8 minuit canopy ride and drop it to 2 like seriously enjoy the view enjoy flying and get your 20$ worth, Now as for peer pressure i have to say i expierence it every day, i am going for my aff rating and soooooo many other jumpers say if you dont fly a 120 you shouldnt be teaching, my point is i am a conservitave sky diver i like my legs in one piece, and i intend to teach this to my students,

[AFFI 0]

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That was one of main reasons for downsizing. I was loading my canopy so light that I couldnt get any penetration on semi-windy days. I find now I can get some penetration when before I couldnt. I dont know if other light weight jumpers have the same problems I was having, maybe not.

I would be interested to know what an experienced jumper (5000 jumps plus an instructors rating) would consider to be the highest wing loading at which point a moderate jumper would get the benefit of a little extra wind penetration and manuverability before adding the risks that go along with highly loaded canopies. I would guess this to be higher than 1:1 but not by too much.

Insight?

Ummmm, not much higher depending on what moderate is - trick is to not jump in winds higher than the airspeed of your canopy.

Sorry, not quite to 5000 yet, just my opinion...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[HookItLow 0]

If you dont want to downsize, thats your choice.

rest of post removed due to pa's

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insert quirky, trendy, witty quote here.
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[Andy9o8 0]

Ah. I see you haven't been banned from this particular forum. Yet. I hope you survive. I have money on you in Bounce Bingo, just to hedge my bets. I hope I lose my money, but I fear that I won't.

[AFFI 0]

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Ah. I see you haven't been banned from this particular forum. Yet. I hope you survive. I have money on you in Bounce Bingo, just to hedge my bets. I hope I lose my money, but I fear that I won't.

My money is that he is a TROLL...

Not an attack, just siding with the majority...

[billvon 2,400]

>what an experienced jumper would consider to be the highest wing
> loading at which point a moderate jumper would get the benefit of a little
>extra wind penetration and manuverability before adding the risks that go
>along with highly loaded canopies.

There's no one number, really. And it doesn't scale - a Pilot 117 doesn't fly anything like a Pilot 188, even if both are at 1:1 loading.

But I can give a basic description of what's too light and too heavy.

If you are backing up in even moderate winds, you may be loading your canopy too lightly. You may want to consider downsizing IF you are comfortable and can meet the checklist below.

If you are worried about doing the following:

-flat turning 90 degrees at 50 feet
-flare turning at least 45 degrees
-landing crosswind and in no wind
-landing reliably within a 10 meter circle
-initiating a high performance landing with double front risers
-landing on slight uphills and downhills
-landing with rear risers

you may be loading your canopy too heavily. In this case consider one of two things:

-getting canopy training so these things don't worry you (they are essential skills)
-going up in canopy size until practicing those things doesn't worry you.

These points will be different for every jumper. A 120lb woman may well be happier at a 1:1 loading than a 190lb jumper will be. Some people want lighter loadings; some want heavier.

As always err on the side of light loadings. You can hurt yourself under any size canopy, but you have to work a lot harder to hurt yourself under a bigger canopy.

[jumpdr 0]

I'm downsizing with the purchase of my new rig because I wanted something that I'll be happy with for a few years. The second hand market isnt exactly thriving out here in Cyprus so I've bought new because I got a good deal and I can afford it.
I started on a 290, progressed through a 260 quickly and last jumped a 240, on which I probably have 40 jumps. I have 68 jumps total and haven't been able to try anything smaller, because my DZ's next canopy is a 190 Silhouette, which according to the PD specs, I'm too heavy for (about 235lbs exit wt).
Next week, I'll get my Icon and Pilot 188. I was originally going to go for a 210, but talking to my instructor, rigger and the Aerodyne dealer I went through, all were happy enough to let me jump the 188 with some degree of downsize progression.
As of next week, I'll be jumping at Perris having had a lay off for 2 months. I have no intention of getting straight on the 188 (given the lay off and DZ altitude) and plan to spend the first day or two on student canopies. Hopefully, Karl from Aerodyne is arranging for a 210 demo Pilot to be sent out to me as it will fit in my new container so I can jump that for most of my holiday and get used to the Pilot's characteristics before I try my 188.
I suspect from reading many threads on here that I'm still being a little aggressive. But none of my instructors seem concerned. One described it as like the difference between going from a clapped out old banger to a Ferrari. You can still drive the Ferrari around carefully at 30mph and be absolutely fine. It's only when you push the limits without the experience that problems can occur.

Skydiving is more than a sport and more than a job: skydiving is pure passion and desire which will fill a lifetime.