12 Deaths in one Month?

[genoyamamoto 0]

True. Better to weight by the number of skydives per month.

Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me
Feel the hate...
Photos here

[Eiley 0]

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... and assuming a 8-month World average skydiving season

Heehee. You guys might have the better toys to play with, but at least the southern hemisphere get a 12-month season!!!

nothing to see here

[billvon 2,410]

>How did the Mr Bill landing contribute to the fatality statistics?

The same way it's reasonable to assume that jumping drunk, or jumping unsafe gear, or 50 jump wonders jumping 2:1 loaded canopies contributes to fatality statistics. Stuff like that leads to more fatalities in general, even if a specific event does not result in a fatality.

[mjosparky 3]

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My preference is to discount the original numbers in this thread unless a specific and reliable source is identified.

The source is identified in the post. Double click "source".

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tombuch 0]

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My preference is to discount the original numbers in this thread unless a specific and reliable source is identified.

The source is identified in the post. Double click "source".

I hadn't seen the source in the original post. Thanks for pointing it out.

I stand by my original position.

The source is based on Internet reporting, and as the Internet has gained popularity, reporting has increased. I also suspect that more jumpers are participating in skydiving forums "in season" and are more likely to report accidents that happen when they are using computer based skydiving services. Voluntary Internet reporting is great, but there are some flaws in the system, and they should be recognized. Please note the significant differences between the total number of fatalities reported using this system, and the larger number reported using conventional reporting from nation-specific official channels (IPC/FAI).

It may be that fatalities have increased over time, or in August of this year, but this source is not a credible means of showing those changes, and won't be, until the technology matures and stabilizes over time. Internet reporting gives us faster access to information than we had before, and allows for alternate reporting channels which gives us (in many cases) additional detail. Internet reporting may also bring a small number of fatalities to light that would not otherwise be known to the official reporting outlets. It's a great resource, and as time goes on it will gain value, but I’m not comfortable using it to “confirm” an “actual” increase in fatalities in a single month or year.

See other posts in this thread by PhreeZone and Bob.dino

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Remster 24]

I agree Tom. Since the original data is from volontary internet reporting, its close to impossible to be certain of the accuracy, and consistancy between the years.

Remster

[mjosparky 3]

Tom,
I am not saying the numbers I posted are the final word, they are just numbers I located on the net. But why would IPC/FAI numbers be any more reliable? How do they collect their data, what sources do they use that the other site would not have access to?
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tombuch 0]

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But why would IPC/FAI numbers be any more reliable? How do they collect their data, what sources do they use that the other site would not have access to?
Sparky

Each national aero club (like USPA) collects data from their own country. There is a specific duty to identify and report accidents, and an established structure for those reports. Most other nations are smaller, have fewer drop zones, and less jump activity than the USA, so it is even easier for the national aero club to identify accidents than it is for USPA. Further, the standard of collection and participation is consistent from season to season and year to year. It's a better and far more reliable data source, but in many cases it doesn't offer as much narrative detail as Internet reports, and the collection is much slower.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[PhreeZone 15]

I'll both agree and disagree. There was a fatality in 2001 that was never reported to the USPA, probally the largest jump organization there is.I nternet report numbers include it, but the USPA has no record of it on file. I know.. I was a first responder to the incident, but no one ever did a report on it.

Reporting is still left up to individuals for the most part. If a DZ can avoid making too big of a news impact then there are good possibilies that they could get by not filing a report with their national Aero club.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[mjosparky 3]

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But why would IPC/FAI numbers be any more reliable? How do they collect their data, what sources do they use that the other site would not have access to?
Sparky

Each national aero club (like USPA) collects data from their own country. There is a specific duty to identify and report accidents, and an established structure for those reports. Most other nations are smaller, have fewer drop zones, and less jump activity than the USA, so it is even easier for the national aero club to identify accidents than it is for USPA. Further, the standard of collection and participation is consistent from season to season and year to year. It's a better and far more reliable data source, but in many cases it doesn't offer as much narrative detail as Internet reports, and the collection is much slower.

I would be interested to know if the source I quoted uses the IPC/FAI as a source for their data.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[cpoxon 0]

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I would be interested to know if the source I quoted uses the IPC/FAI as a source for their data.

Hi Sparky,

No I don't. The majority of the information (from the late 90s and early 00s at least) was collected via internet reporting, as Tom mentioned, by Barry Brummit. THE IPC/FAI information would certainly make a good tally though and I'll be looking into it. SOme kinds souls have translated and forwarded official reports from their parachuting organisations (notably Germany and Finland (although I believe the Finnish reporting is no more)) which have been included. I also have a stack of back issues of Parachutist, Skydiving, and Sports Parachutist that I am working my way through trying to collate more historical information and also fill in any gaps.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[SabineWithWings 0]

Well I don't know anything, seeings how I've only done my tandem and start AFF training next month. (And I am so excited I can hardly stand it!)

What I found striking is that a lot of these fatalities were people who had a lot of experience (500 or more jumps). Now that scares the jebus right out of a newbie like me. The only thing that I can think of for explaination (and I'd love to hear contrasting opinions) is that maybe what my instructor said is true, that sometimes people get complacent, and that complaceny kills in skydiving. Is this true? Logically I would have thought that the more you jump, the safer you are.. But that's coming from complete ignorance, I admit. I'm very curious about it though.

Not that the knowledge will stop me from jumping, because I am completely hooked (read: obsessed!)..

_________________________________
Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to return. Leonardo da Vinci

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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What I found striking is that a lot of these fatalities were people who had a lot of experience (500 or more jumps). Now that scares the jebus right out of a newbie like me.

I had the exact reaction when I found this site, reading the fatalities reports after my tandem and before my first AFF jumps. But if jumping is something which truly interests you, you'll find a way to over come these fears.

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sometimes people get complacent

Yes I am sure that X number of deaths and injuries are a result of this. But many of the deaths and injuries are really the result of poor canopy control decisions due to either lack of education, lack of respect (getting in over your head before your skills and experience catch up to your desires) and just plain bad luck. Flying our modern high performance canopies (something hopefully you won't want to do for a while) requires proper training and respect. I have always thought that I had decent canopy control skills (where have we heard that one before) because I was a pilot before I jumped and I stand up about 99.5% of my landings. But recently I just came back from some high performance canopy control training with a world class canopy control coach ... and wow ... this guy totally opened my eyes as to how much I didn't know. And even in his own words, it's not that I didn't already know much of the material in which he taught me, it was that I was doing things out of sequence in most cases. I still stand the risk of cratering ... as does anyone else (even the ultra experienced have cratered), especially those who fly high performance canopies. But now that I have been armed with some proper instruction, I have a better chance of surviving now.

Be smart, educate yourself on the gear, seek coaching (it's worth it) and know that you are not immune from death (make sure you have come to grips with your mortality as it's been said on here before than one can do everything right on a skydive and still die). And for sure if you plan on flying high performance canopies, seek out qualified coaches and take your time. It's a long road requiring thousands and thousands of jumps towards becoming that bad ass skydiver most of us would like to be.

Welcome to the sport ... or should I say lifestyle.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[SabineWithWings 0]

Thank you for your advice. I'm definately a "safety gal", and I won't even think of high performance canopies for a long time. I want to immerse myself into this sport, but safely and carefully. I'm not in a hurry to get into advanced manuevers at all. Eventually (after a few hundred jumps), I'd really like to try sky surfing, but I'm not going to do anything that my instructors/mentors don't think I am ready to do (and that I am not personally comfortable with.)

Being a scientist with a strong interest in physics, I am very intresested in learning as much as possible about the physics of flight (besides what I have can relate from the semesters of physics that I've taken) as they relate to skydiving, both in freefall and under canopy. Very interesting to me that even as a pilot there was so much for you to learn about canopy control, tells me I'll have a looooong way to go, even with my physics background. I'm almost as excited about learning the physics of skydiving as I am in skydiving itself. Tells you what a geek I am. :)

I really appreciate what you said about "coming to grips with my mortality". That's really what started this for me. A few years back I was a lone eye witness in a head on car crash on a desolate road. I won't get too into the details, but I held someone's hand and comforted them while they died, and I was the only person that walked away alive. For years I lived with a cloud of fear, fear of dying, fear of losing the ones that I loved. I was simply afraid of life. Jumping out of an airplane was my way of looking mortality in the face again and saying, "I'm not going to let you run my life". And it worked. I lost the cloud. And in the meantime, I became positively addicted. Since the day I jumped (a month ago), it's all I can think about. I'm super stoked.

Thanks for the reply, and the welcome. Aside from falling in love with the sport itself, I've also been so so blessed to find a lifestyle which hosts so many kindred spirits, so many beautiful souls.

Blue Skies in My Head,
Sabine

_________________________________
Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to return. Leonardo da Vinci

[mjosparky 3]

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I would be interested to know if the source I quoted uses the IPC/FAI as a source for their data.

Hi Sparky,

No I don't. The majority of the information (from the late 90s and early 00s at least) was collected via internet reporting, as Tom mentioned, by Barry Brummit. THE IPC/FAI information would certainly make a good tally though and I'll be looking into it. SOme kinds souls have translated and forwarded official reports from their parachuting organisations (notably Germany and Finland (although I believe the Finnish reporting is no more)) which have been included. I also have a stack of back issues of Parachutist, Skydiving, and Sports Parachutist that I am working my way through trying to collate more historical information and also fill in any gaps.

Thanks for jumping in. I was not sure how the information on the site was gathered.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kelpdiver 2]

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What I found striking is that a lot of these fatalities were people who had a lot of experience (500 or more jumps). Now that scares the jebus right out of a newbie like me. The only thing that I can think of for explaination (and I'd love to hear contrasting opinions) is that maybe what my instructor said is true, that sometimes people get complacent, and that complaceny kills in skydiving. Is this true? Logically I would have thought that the more you jump, the safer you are.. But that's coming from complete ignorance, I admit. I'm very curious about it though.

Not just being complacent, but doing more advanced stuff. The first AFF jump, they stressed no hard low turns, so I steered like it was a 747. "Low" and "hard" were very loosely defined. And for a lot of the experienced jumpers, defined very very differently.

[meatbomb 0]

If you wanna learn the physics of canopy flying, go no further than Brian Germain's The Parachute and it's Pilot. An excellent explanation of the physical forces impacting our canopies, and how to use them.

---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[slug 1]

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I'll both agree and disagree. There was a fatality in 2001 that was never reported to the USPA, probally the largest jump organization there is.I nternet report numbers include it, but the USPA has no record of it on file. I know.. I was a first responder to the incident, but no one ever did a report on it.

Reporting is still left up to individuals for the most part. If a DZ can avoid making too big of a news impact then there are good possibilies that they could get by not filing a report with their national Aero club.

Hi PhreeZone

You said a fatality happened based on first hand info and USPA didn't find out about it I believe you but but .... I guess never say never...

As far as the stats for fatalities go I realize every fatality is a tragedy and even one is one to many. But just looking at the numbers in the U.S. 2004 and assuming the number are relatively accurate and there isn't a massive upsurge for the rest of the yr.

IMO 2004 will be a record yr for the low number of fatailities.
Any opinions why?
More tandems/ less fun jumpers?
AAD? How many save's for 2004? How many cutters sold?
AFF/better traing canopy courses?
Less total fun jumps due to the economy/ wind tunnels etc.

R.i.P.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I agree Tom. Since the original data is from volontary internet reporting, its close to impossible to be certain of the accuracy, and consistancy between the years.

Could the accuracy also come from the definition of a skydiving related fatality? The internet does not have set standards, while an aviation specific agency will have set guidlines.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....