Mikki_ZH 0 #1 September 29, 2004 I had a reserve ride this weekend because one brake was released. The canopy started spinning already during the snivel phase and I ended up with various line twists (and continuing twisting) and a spinning canopy. The thing is that I’m sure that I have stowed both brakes (but I guess that is what everyone would say…). The toggles are connected to the riser with a very old and used Velcro. I think that the brake has unstowed itself during the opening process, probably by leaving the container (Vector 3). I would like to know if anyone had a similar experience. Can it be that a brake gets released by itself? Or do I have to live with the fact that I was foolish enough to stowe only one brake?? Edited for spellingMichi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 September 29, 2004 QuoteThe toggles are connected to the riser with a very old and used Velcro Is the container yours? Get that velcro replaced or consider ordering a set of velcroless risers/toggles from RW. It seems like a bit of a 'soft' mal if you see what I mean. I'm not saying you did wrong by chopping but I am saying it's easily avoidable. Reserves don't work 100% of the time and badly maintained velcro seems like a daft reason to trust your life to one. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #3 September 29, 2004 yes, get them repaired. Velcroless toggles aren't immune from premature releases either. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #4 September 29, 2004 Yes, the rig is mine. I bought it used but I have ordered a new rig which has trulok toggles. I will get it end of November. I underestimated the danger of the old Velcro... But never to old to learn...Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
el_chester 4 #5 September 29, 2004 hey michael! qué bueno que estás bien, amigo having been in the sport for 12 years i have seen that when something becomes the new standard, it is usually because experience taught us skydivers how to improve our equpment. think of velcro-less riser covers and about bridle covers, about 3-ring-release, and bottom-of-container pilot chutes as opposed to leg-strap, etc. etc etc. so if nowadays most people have velcro-less rigs, it is probably for a good reason. that's not to say you'll die if you have velcro, many thousands of jumps were done before today's state of the art rigs. But still, if you can afford state of the art, you will lower risks. glad to hear you ordered a rig - what container did you get? what size main/reserve? (edited for clarity) -- Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #6 September 29, 2004 >I would like to know if anyone had a similar experience. I've had several brake releases, but they never caused a mal. My latest one was on a Nitro 108, and all it did was turn - I could counter with body (at first) then riser. Type of canopy has a lot to do with how bad a brake fire is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #7 September 29, 2004 Hola Chester, Wiä gahts? To verify: The riser covers are not Velcro; I would not FF with Velcro riser covers. But the toggles are connected to the riser with Velcro and the Velcro is used up. That's why the attachment of the toggles is not good. But I would say to connect the toggles to the riser with Velcro is still state of the art (if the Velcro is ok...). My new rig is a Vector 308 (Micron) with a PD126R and I will use it for some more time with my sabre 2 150. Chelas!!!Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropzonefool 0 #8 September 29, 2004 Yep, happened to me once. Was borrowing a rig, a vector2, so you know it had velcro. The right break released during snivel. I was pretty weird feeling, 360 turns during deployment. I grabbed riser and leveled out, then I noticed the right was not stowed, the problem was I couldn't let go of the left riser with the left hand, or it would start to spin again. so I had to unstow my left toggle with my right hand. Of course the collapisable slider was in the way. So in reaching up and over gave saddle input and it started turning to the left. Eventually I was able to grab it and release the stow above my hard deck.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #9 September 29, 2004 Do you reach up and grab you risers during deployment? This is a common cause of a brake coming un-stowed. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites speedy 0 #10 September 29, 2004 There is little point having profiles if some makes the claim they have been in the sport 12 years yet in their profile it states 1 year. I would be more inclined to take up the premier membership if there was a bit more control over what was entered in profiles. Even if it's only for the premier members. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mikki_ZH 0 #11 September 29, 2004 QuoteDo you reach up and grab you risers during deployment? This is a common cause of a brake coming un-stowed. Sparky ___________________________________________ Yes, I do so, but only in the terminal phase of the snivel. But in this case I did not feel the end of the snivel phase, it felt like that the canopy started to spin already in the snivel phase and when it started to inflate, I already had line twists and was under a spiraling canopy.Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mustard 0 #12 September 30, 2004 QuoteI've had several brake releases, but they never caused a mal. One Christmas boogie at Eloy I had an unstowed brake under my 1.1 wing loaded Sabre 2. Unfortunately, I also had lots of line twists, and when I tried to kick out, I spun up really hard. Had to chop while spinning very hard, here didn't seem to be any way to stop it. I had a nasty bruise under my chin where a riser apparently smacked me. I did change out the risers to the new velcro-less Mirage setup, which works very nicely. But even when I pay for a packer, I always stow my own brakes since it gives me some peace of mind. *** DJan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites el_chester 4 #13 September 30, 2004 QuoteThere is little point having profiles if some makes the claim they have been in the sport 12 years yet in their profile it states 1 year. Ok, I agree, and when I came to dropzone.com I had the dilemma of saying 1 or 12. I chose 1. Let me explain. In 1992 I started jumping, and until 2000 did a bit less than 150 jumps. Then, in the past year, I have come back, and really gotten INTO the sport and have done a bit more than 200 jumps. So, for me, I have been IN the sport, as a regular, current jumper, for only one year. Maybe I should change it back to 12 years, at the risk of giving the impression that I am a 30 jumps/year jumper, instead of the current 200/year. Sorry for the confusion, it was not my intension to fool you or anybody. -- Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #14 September 30, 2004 and that was with the Sabre2 150, just imagine with the stiletto 135... couldn't you counter the turn by flying with the risers ?? or by quickly releasing the other brake ?? I don't know if this is a common procedure, but it already saved me a couple of reserve repacks...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bacillus 0 #15 September 30, 2004 I once was an idiot while packing and when stowing my breakes, I stuck the top of the toggle through the ring on the riser that the break line runs through. During opening, there is enough force to pull the line off the toggle, through the ring, and causing one break to release on opening. Uneventful, as it released at the very end of my opening, and only did about a 270 without line twists before i released the other breaks. Just wanted to share in case other newbies with few pack jobs under their belt had never thought of the consequences of doing this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mikki_ZH 0 #16 September 30, 2004 Quoteand that was with the Sabre2 150, just imagine with the stiletto 135... ha, ha, ha.... couldn't you counter the turn by flying with the risers ?? or by quickly releasing the other brake ?? I don't know if this is a common procedure, but it already saved me a couple of reserve repacks... No, my experience was the same as mustard explains. I think the opening fire with one brake unstowed caused that the main began to spin and I found myself already under a spinning canopy with various line twists. I tried to pull the risers apart and started kicking for only about 3 seconds but the lines continued twisting even more so I did not wait any longer and chopped. I must admit that I did not try to release the other brake, but I think this would not have changed anything because of the line twists. And everything was very fast. I think the opening fire that caused the spinning and the line twists started with at the end of the snivel when the canopy started to inflate.Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #17 September 30, 2004 I had a premature release on velcroless Javelin risers due to broken toggle keeper. The steering line wrapped around the slider but I managed to stop the turn with rear riser (it was Sabre1) and release the other break. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Cacophony 0 #18 September 30, 2004 I actually had an unstowed brake line on a vector 3 this weekend. I've had about 6 this year alone. I had the factory toggles from RWS for this rig. I believe that it has to do with the riser cover and the excess brake line snagging it during opening. I know of a few other people that have had this very similar problem on this rig. Make sure you tightly secure all excess brake line and that it is pulled nice and tight through the guide ring. This helped me to get rid of the problem. (Side note, the unstowed brake line I had this weekend was on the same rig, but after I had sold it. It was packed by someone else with their canopy.) Never once have I cut away my main canopy due to an unstowed brake line or line twists and I jump a Stiletto 135. I'm sure you made the right decision, but if you pull on time you should have a solid 10 seconds until your hard deck under severe line twists. That should give you plenty of time to assess the situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #19 September 30, 2004 Earlier this year I incorrectly stowed my right brake and it popped loose on opening, giving me a heck of a spin. I was able to pull both toggles down, which immediately stopped the spinning, but was shocked to find I'd lost something like 500-600 ft in that brief time. It's nothing to fool with, even if you can fix it, so do it quick or let it go. Since then, I've added one small step to my packing procedure. After I stow each break, grab the steering line, above the riser, and give it a good tug. I'm looking at the toggle when I do this and visually establishing that I can see that the toggle is set and is stopping against the guide ring. It's a very quick, easy, and worthwhile check for your peace of mind. By the way, if you're getting new risers, make sure they have the new hardened cable housings for your 3 ring cables. Then if you spin it up badly some day, those hard housings will make your cutaway pull a lot easier. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flow 1 #20 October 3, 2004 Quoteand that was with the Sabre2 150, just imagine with the stiletto 135... It has happened me several times with Stiletto 120 and Crossfire 119, no problems. Few times both canopies have spun up into linetwists but have managed to kick out of the twists so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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mjosparky 3 #9 September 29, 2004 Do you reach up and grab you risers during deployment? This is a common cause of a brake coming un-stowed. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #10 September 29, 2004 There is little point having profiles if some makes the claim they have been in the sport 12 years yet in their profile it states 1 year. I would be more inclined to take up the premier membership if there was a bit more control over what was entered in profiles. Even if it's only for the premier members. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #11 September 29, 2004 QuoteDo you reach up and grab you risers during deployment? This is a common cause of a brake coming un-stowed. Sparky ___________________________________________ Yes, I do so, but only in the terminal phase of the snivel. But in this case I did not feel the end of the snivel phase, it felt like that the canopy started to spin already in the snivel phase and when it started to inflate, I already had line twists and was under a spiraling canopy.Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mustard 0 #12 September 30, 2004 QuoteI've had several brake releases, but they never caused a mal. One Christmas boogie at Eloy I had an unstowed brake under my 1.1 wing loaded Sabre 2. Unfortunately, I also had lots of line twists, and when I tried to kick out, I spun up really hard. Had to chop while spinning very hard, here didn't seem to be any way to stop it. I had a nasty bruise under my chin where a riser apparently smacked me. I did change out the risers to the new velcro-less Mirage setup, which works very nicely. But even when I pay for a packer, I always stow my own brakes since it gives me some peace of mind. *** DJan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
el_chester 4 #13 September 30, 2004 QuoteThere is little point having profiles if some makes the claim they have been in the sport 12 years yet in their profile it states 1 year. Ok, I agree, and when I came to dropzone.com I had the dilemma of saying 1 or 12. I chose 1. Let me explain. In 1992 I started jumping, and until 2000 did a bit less than 150 jumps. Then, in the past year, I have come back, and really gotten INTO the sport and have done a bit more than 200 jumps. So, for me, I have been IN the sport, as a regular, current jumper, for only one year. Maybe I should change it back to 12 years, at the risk of giving the impression that I am a 30 jumps/year jumper, instead of the current 200/year. Sorry for the confusion, it was not my intension to fool you or anybody. -- Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #14 September 30, 2004 and that was with the Sabre2 150, just imagine with the stiletto 135... couldn't you counter the turn by flying with the risers ?? or by quickly releasing the other brake ?? I don't know if this is a common procedure, but it already saved me a couple of reserve repacks...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bacillus 0 #15 September 30, 2004 I once was an idiot while packing and when stowing my breakes, I stuck the top of the toggle through the ring on the riser that the break line runs through. During opening, there is enough force to pull the line off the toggle, through the ring, and causing one break to release on opening. Uneventful, as it released at the very end of my opening, and only did about a 270 without line twists before i released the other breaks. Just wanted to share in case other newbies with few pack jobs under their belt had never thought of the consequences of doing this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #16 September 30, 2004 Quoteand that was with the Sabre2 150, just imagine with the stiletto 135... ha, ha, ha.... couldn't you counter the turn by flying with the risers ?? or by quickly releasing the other brake ?? I don't know if this is a common procedure, but it already saved me a couple of reserve repacks... No, my experience was the same as mustard explains. I think the opening fire with one brake unstowed caused that the main began to spin and I found myself already under a spinning canopy with various line twists. I tried to pull the risers apart and started kicking for only about 3 seconds but the lines continued twisting even more so I did not wait any longer and chopped. I must admit that I did not try to release the other brake, but I think this would not have changed anything because of the line twists. And everything was very fast. I think the opening fire that caused the spinning and the line twists started with at the end of the snivel when the canopy started to inflate.Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #17 September 30, 2004 I had a premature release on velcroless Javelin risers due to broken toggle keeper. The steering line wrapped around the slider but I managed to stop the turn with rear riser (it was Sabre1) and release the other break. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cacophony 0 #18 September 30, 2004 I actually had an unstowed brake line on a vector 3 this weekend. I've had about 6 this year alone. I had the factory toggles from RWS for this rig. I believe that it has to do with the riser cover and the excess brake line snagging it during opening. I know of a few other people that have had this very similar problem on this rig. Make sure you tightly secure all excess brake line and that it is pulled nice and tight through the guide ring. This helped me to get rid of the problem. (Side note, the unstowed brake line I had this weekend was on the same rig, but after I had sold it. It was packed by someone else with their canopy.) Never once have I cut away my main canopy due to an unstowed brake line or line twists and I jump a Stiletto 135. I'm sure you made the right decision, but if you pull on time you should have a solid 10 seconds until your hard deck under severe line twists. That should give you plenty of time to assess the situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #19 September 30, 2004 Earlier this year I incorrectly stowed my right brake and it popped loose on opening, giving me a heck of a spin. I was able to pull both toggles down, which immediately stopped the spinning, but was shocked to find I'd lost something like 500-600 ft in that brief time. It's nothing to fool with, even if you can fix it, so do it quick or let it go. Since then, I've added one small step to my packing procedure. After I stow each break, grab the steering line, above the riser, and give it a good tug. I'm looking at the toggle when I do this and visually establishing that I can see that the toggle is set and is stopping against the guide ring. It's a very quick, easy, and worthwhile check for your peace of mind. By the way, if you're getting new risers, make sure they have the new hardened cable housings for your 3 ring cables. Then if you spin it up badly some day, those hard housings will make your cutaway pull a lot easier. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flow 1 #20 October 3, 2004 Quoteand that was with the Sabre2 150, just imagine with the stiletto 135... It has happened me several times with Stiletto 120 and Crossfire 119, no problems. Few times both canopies have spun up into linetwists but have managed to kick out of the twists so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
