PULL OUT VS. THROW OUT

[diablopilot 2]

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There's a good chance that your wing's burble would prevent the pullout from getting clean air.

There is the same chance of that happening with a throwout.

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Or if you need longer explanation just search WS forum with "pull out" keywords.

You could always just say you don't know.

Did I mention I have more than 350 successful wingsuit jumps with a pullout? No malfunctions?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Tonto 1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[TMPattersonJr 0]

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Or if you need longer explanation just search WS forum with "pull out" keywords.

Ya know oddley enough I did that exact search and the diablo had posted in both of them about the same thing that he has said in here. Wierd huh? I'll ask you the same thing I asked Tonto, maby I'll get an answer from you.

Does the manual specifically say why you should not use a pull out with a wingsuit? If so please tell me the reason behind it and if the reason makes perfect sense and doesn't just say "GRUNT, PULL OUT BAD, NO USE WING SUIT WITH, GRUNT, YOU DIE"

Please point me in the right direction or if your just talking from the side of the unknowing please don't speak of what you do not know.

I only spoke of my experience with the pull outs on my wing suit and other jumps, (limited as they may be) nothing further. No hear-say, no BS, just what I know for a fact.

Blue SkiesBlack DeathFacebook
www.PLabsInc.com
www.SkydiveDeLand.com
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[Skydave103 0]

I have never had a problem with my pullout. It' more secure that a BOC, no pouch to wear out or hackey to get "lost".
The only people that tend to have problems are people who are lazy with their pull sequence. They pull but dont throw.
Over 2300 with a pullout and the only problem I have had is the 1st jump on a new rig and I dropped the PUD.
Had a floating handle, reached back to my pin, found the handle and deployed without a problem.

Most people can't handle something different from the normal. The like a BOC because that is what "everyone else is jumping." They don't know why they like a BOC other than everone else is jumping it. And cant even begin to tell you why it is better than a pullout

Hell my rigger doenst even know how to pack my pull-out!!!

LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

[billvon 2,400]

>Had a floating handle, reached back to my pin, found the handle and deployed without a problem.

This was perhaps the #1 problem with pullouts when they were more popular back in the 70's and 80's. A jumper has a floating handle, reaches back and finds it, and deploys his main. The velcro gets worn so this happens a few more times. Then one day he can't find the handle; he searches for it until he impacts because he has trained himself to do just that. In a way, a pullout "trains" you to search instead of "two tries then reserve."

[BlueSBDeath 2]

Post edited. Your one warning. Do not post Speaker's Corner material here.

BSBD...........Its all about Respect,

USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499

[diablopilot 2]

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>Had a floating handle, reached back to my pin, found the handle and deployed without a problem.

This was perhaps the #1 problem with pullouts when they were more popular back in the 70's and 80's. A jumper has a floating handle, reaches back and finds it, and deploys his main. The velcro gets worn so this happens a few more times. Then one day he can't find the handle; he searches for it until he impacts because he has trained himself to do just that. In a way, a pullout "trains" you to search instead of "two tries then reserve."

What a load of bull. A Pull out in no way "trains" someone to ignore their procedures. People have gone in looking for a hackey just as many times. In my experience if anything pull out jumpers are FAR more knowledgeable about their gear than throw out jumpers on a percentage basis. The popular style in the 70's and 80's was the bunny tail, which only jumpshack continues to use anymore.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[BlueSBDeath 2]

Thanks JP, you so eloquently said what my deleted post meant

BSBD...........Its all about Respect,

USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499

[billvon 2,400]

>A Pull out in no way "trains" someone to ignore their procedures.
>People have gone in looking for a hackey just as many times.

No, they haven't.

Let's take a related example.

Jumper A has a canopy that opens reliably in about 300 feet. He pulls at 2500 and has a canopy by 2000 feet. Not much drama in his openings.

Jumper B has a canopy that opens in between 300 and 1000 feet. The problem is the slider - it sticks sometimes. He keeps meaning to get it fixed, but likes the soft openings. Sometimes he ends up pumping the brakes to get the slider down. But it always opens eventually.

Now, put both these jumpers in a situation where they are whistling through 1800 feet with a stuck slider. Which one will be more likely to cut away, and which one will try to fix it?

Jumper B, of course, will be more likely to try to fix it. His canopy has "trained" him to know that he can fix the problem by pumping it. 'Stuck slider = fix by pumping' has been proven to him to be a good rule.

This isn't some evil thing that the canopy is forcing into his brain, it's how people learn. Heavy guys get 'trained' to set up their approaches for bigways higher, so that they have a buffer if they are at risk of going low.

Likewise, pullout jumpers are "trained" to try to find that handle if they can't. Usually they can, and it's not a problem. Sometimes they can't - and that was the cause of a lot of fatalities in the 70's and 80's, far outnumbering the problem with throwout hard pulls.

This in and of itself doesn't mean pullouts are bad. I jumped one for about 400 jumps back at Brown and had no problems, and a friend of mine who _did_ have problems with hers always reacted correctly (two tries and reserve.) Indeed, they can be a good option for a jumper if he has the discipline to deploy his reserve after trying twice to find the pud (even if he can feel it on the tips of his fingers, and even if he's gotten it a dozen times in the past, and even if he's still above 2000, and even if he can't afford a reserve ride etc etc.) I have no doubt that you are able to do that, and thus a pullout is not a problem at all for you. And if it is true, as you claim, that pullout jumpers are FAR more knowledgeable than the rest of us, then no doubt they are not at risk of this either. I will continue to recommend throwouts for the rest of us less-knowledgeable jumpers, though, to try to avoid those sorts of incidents. Think of it as a crutch for us less-knowledgeable sorts if you like.

[waltappel 1]

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Sometimes they can't - and that was the cause of a lot of fatalities in the 70's and 80's, far outnumbering the problem with throwout hard pulls.

I don't remember any rash of fatalities from pullout-related problems back then. I think the more common problem was jumpers pulling on something that was *not* a pilot chute handle.

When the hand-deployed pilot chute started gaining general acceptance it was considered important to have the handle where it could be seen. Gradually, the PC seemed to migrate to the rear. At first they were often mounted on belly bands, then legstraps, and finally BOCs. Somewhere in the middle of that the pullout was introduced.

As I recall, it was during the beginnings of when having pilot chute handles visible was no longer considered important that some people went in pulling on their harness or legstrap or whatever, thinking it was their PC handle.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't specifically recall any fatalities associated with floating POP handles.

edited to add:
Just to add my two cents to the pullout vs. throwout question, I think both systems are extremely reliable. Simply choose one and take the time to learn to use and maintain it properly. The only reason I got a pullout years ago is because I got a great deal on a Racer. I still jump a Racer with a pullout but I'm equally comfortable with a throwout.

edited again to add:
One oddball thing that I believe about pullouts is that for CRW jumpers (I'm one) canopies with pilot chute retraction systems that consist of a really long bridle made of suspension line routed through rings on the topskin of the canopy, if spectra is used for the bridle it seems to be more prone to malfunctioning. 400 lb. Dacron seems quite reliable, though.

Walt

[diablopilot 2]

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No, they haven't.

You sure about that?

I can think of 2 Perris jumpers alone that have gone in in less than the last 5 years trying to find a hackey for too long.

In a review of fatalities since 1996 attributed to "No Pull" situation I could not locate a SINGLE incident involving a pull out.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,400]

>In a review of fatalities since 1996 attributed to "No Pull" situation I could
>not locate a SINGLE incident involving a pull out.

Right. Like I said, the problems occurred mainly during the 70's and 80's. This led most people to get throwouts, a trend that's continued until recently.

Reminds me of a conversation at the recent PIA. We were talking to a rigger about pullouts, and he opined that they were safer overall. "Well, but the death rate from lost puds was a lot higher than for throwouts, at least while pullouts were popular," Amy pointed out. "Yeah, but I'm better than your average skydiver," he said. "So it's safer for me." Whatever works!

[faulknerwn 36]

Course you have to wonder if its changed - because I think most pullout jumpers are hyper-vigilent about the lost pud thing, if only because throwout jumpers seem to feel the need to point it out on a daily basis.

Throw-out jumpers, the try twice thing is rarely discussed after the FJC. I suspect they are much less aware of the issue than pullout jumpers...

(I gotta admit, I have both pullout and throwout rigs, and I definitely think pullouts are the better system.)

[Tonto 1]

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I'll ask you the same thing I asked Tonto, maby I'll get an answer from you.

Hi There,

I'm going to try and keep this to the wingsuit arguement and not the origional thread title but the 2 are hard to separate. My "swimming up stream" link was meant to be followed up by this explanation, but a weekends 14 skydives got in the way, so here it is, a little belated.

Of my 5132 skydives, about 1800 are on pull out, and the remainder on throw out (ROL & BOC) with a smattering on ripcord (50 main and 20 reserve) Not sure where to put the 750 odd Tandems, but figured they'd be more BOC than anything else.

800 of the pull outs were on CRW specific equipment, where retractable PC's are required. About 400 were on camera dives where I prefered the PC to simply lift the bag due to the increased burble of the wings, and the remaining 600 odd were while in a competition FS team.

Now to wingsuits.

As a BMI, PFI and PASA WSI or as an instructor in general, I try to lead by example. My example as a wingsuit instructor is to jump a docile canopy, moderately loaded for my experience level (A Safire loaded to 1.85 in comparison to my FX-93 loaded to 2.1) and follow the other recomendations outlined in the flight manuals/recomendations of the different suit manufacturers I have taught on.

On the majority of my wingsuit dives (some 250) I have used a BASE PC Pouch. My new suit, due to be delivered in about a month, also has this option. This option simply does not exist for a pull out jumper, and I've found the consistency of deployment with the shrivel flap allowing a millisecond to return to trim rewarding. As with the "freefly friendly" brigade, I've found the maintenance of the velcro high, and replace both hook and pile every 50 jumps.

As I understand it, the origional reasoning why pull-out was not recomended was that the top of the wing - your back - is the low pressure area which generates the lift of the suit. On a pull out, the possibility exists, however slim, that the open container may release the bag prior to full inflation of the PC resulting in an out of sequence deployment. Of course, modern containers have highly developed friction staging which precludes this, but those who are jumping older gear, or who have had the dynamic corner mod done have compromised this edge somewhat. BOC's also allow the use of a longer bridle while the rig is closed, while the time to reach "bridle-stretch" increases the variable window for OOS deployment on the pull out. The idea of hunting around for a lost pud with all that flapping wing about is also pretty daunting, at least to me. The pin and pud at the bottom of the PC also present the possible choking of the PC in a similar way to high weight hackeys, monkey fists etc.

Generally, what works well in BASE - an equipment specific and demanding disipline, translates well to wingsuits. I don't know of any BASE jumpers using a pull out. Maybe no Salmon there due to the number of bears.

I've been skydiving quite a long time. I started on rounds, and moved to a pull out after a friend, Carlene, went in with a twisted leg strap on a ROL throwout. When that problem was solved by the BOC, and I no longer did comp CRW or camera, my percieved need for a pull out abated and I reverted to BOC. Over the years I've seen many, many salmon. Some get to the breeding ground and some have been eaten by the bear. Those who don't swim up stream need not fear the bear.

By all means follow your own path, but understand that this sport has a history of killing off those who make their own rules and ignore the path cut at great expense. The ground simply doesn't care which path you take.

I have no conflict with you, and I have no need to prove you wrong. What you are doing is working for you. May it always be so.

Blue Skies,

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[diablopilot 2]

One thing to note, in the past (about birth of the wingsuit era circa 99' to 2000') it was very common for pullouts to have a shorter bridle than throw outs. Two reasons for this were that is was assumes not as much "snach" was needed as the container was already open, and it reduced the amount of bulk needed in the main container. I've seen pullout bridles from this era to be as shore as 6 or 7 feet. In most modern skydiving containers to my knowlage the pull out bridles are being constructed the same length as the throw out bridles, as they should be.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Gradually, the PC seemed to migrate to the rear. At first they were often mounted on belly bands, then legstraps, and finally BOCs. Somewhere in the middle of that the pullout was introduced.


Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't specifically recall any fatalities associated with floating POP handles.

My first pull out was when everyone else still had belly bands. They've been around a while.

I think jeannie mccombs went in on a pull out back in the early '80's at Kapowsin. I had a friend almost go in looking for the pud. i still jump a pull out, but you gotta know when to say when.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi John,

I believe that jeannie went in at Elsinore. I was talking with her there (Elsinore) about two weeks before she died.

My recollection is that she had a total (pin would not come out) and go herself too low.

On the other hand, a old-timer here (started in the early '60's) Jim Wright went in trying to find the handle of a throw-out (Jim had over 3,000 jumps). Chasing either type of handle can be very fatal. I have just one experience with this type of thing.

Jerry

[BlueSBDeath 2]

Nice call JP, us more edumacated RACER PUD users have a nine foot bridle

Cuz longer is mo-better (SST=Struggle, Struggle, THUMP)

Don't Let your gear teach you bad habits, take charge of your impact!!!!!

Arvel

BSBD...........Its all about Respect,

USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499

[waltappel 1]

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SST=Struggle, Struggle, THUMP

I've been wondering when someone would mention that!

Walt

[Zing 2]

As long as its being brought up, it should be mentioned that the struggle, struggle, thud came about after the reserve ripcord housing on a few rigs (and more of them were bootleg copies than true SSTs) were incorrectly tacked down at the top of the reserve container.
When the ripcord was pulled on, the housing made a 90 degree angle to the ripcord's cable and the 90 was just above the top pin ... nearly impossible to pull.
From what I remember, there was one bounce on an SST, two on Sod Farm copies and one incident where a guy managed to pull hard enough to tear the ripcord loose from the tacking and the reserve opened.
It had nothing to do with the pull-out main pilot chutes that came out when the original SST was redesigned and designated the SST Racer.

Besides, everybody knows that SST actually stands for Sherman's Still Trying!

Zing Lurks

[waltappel 1]

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As long as its being brought up, it should be mentioned that the struggle, struggle, thud came about after the reserve ripcord housing on a few rigs (and more of them were bootleg copies than true SSTs) were incorrectly tacked down at the top of the reserve container.
When the ripcord was pulled on, the housing made a 90 degree angle to the ripcord's cable and the 90 was just above the top pin ... nearly impossible to pull.
From what I remember, there was one bounce on an SST, two on Sod Farm copies and one incident where a guy managed to pull hard enough to tear the ripcord loose from the tacking and the reserve opened.
It had nothing to do with the pull-out main pilot chutes that came out when the original SST was redesigned and designated the SST Racer.

Interesting--I'd never heard that.

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Besides, everybody knows that SST actually stands for Sherman's Still Trying!

Oooooooh tacky!!!! Funny, but tacky!!!

Despite what anyone may say, I *love* my racer!

Walt

[Zing 2]

Me too, Walt. Sold dozens of Racers in years gone by and I'm still jumping one ... on the odd occasions when I make a leap.

Zing Lurks

[BlueSBDeath 2]

I now jump a POWER Racer (Please Open With Extended Right arm).

I love my Racer and my Pud.

However; we all know every rig has its faults!!!

Stay Safe,

Arvel

BSBD...........Its all about Respect,

USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499