landing patterns and directions

[lili 0]

not wanting to hijack the BSR thread, I thought I would post my questions/observations here.

Many dropzones have a "follow the first person down" policy, which works most of the time. But in variable conditions I have seen the first people down landing at pretty much the same time going in opposite directions (not deliberately). Also people hanging around on rear risers or brakes trying to work out which way the first person down is going to land which can be difficult. I'm sure I am not the only one to have seen this, or to have been confused as to which way people are setting up. Is there a better policy? A solution that I think would work is to put out an arrow pointing in the direction of landing during light and variable conditions, with an alternate landing area if you don't want to land that direction. Any thoughts?

Also, landing areas that are perpendicular to each other. This can cause what to me are obvious problems when approaching the landing area. Trying to work out if the person flying towards your approach has seen you, and if not are they going to (a) turn 90 degrees and land in the same direction as you, or (b) carry straight through to the other landing area, is again not easy, or at least not for me without a crystal ball.

Personally I don't swoop, but I would imagine that the first problem will only happen at a quicker speed for them. The swooper may be the first one down but the canopies that were below them before they start their turn may end up landing at the same time or shortly after in the opposite direction.

Obviously being aware of the canopies in the air, and trying to be prepared for/avoid any eventuality is going to help, but I doubt I am the only person that has seen these things happen a fair number of times, and I am wondering if there is anything that can be done to reduce the frequency or prevent them.

Any thoughts?

Lx

[billvon 2,400]

>Is there a better policy?

Well, at least at our DZ that problem is caused primarily by people flying nonstandard patterns. The scenario is as follows:

The "default" direction is to the north, but the wind is very light out of the south. The first guy down wants to do a 270, so he sets up right over the landing area. Another guy sets up a standard pattern to the north and is about to land to the north. The guy above the landing area whips a 270 to the south, and lands just before the guy on final. Second guy can't abort at that low an altitude so he lands to the north.

This can be ameliorated to a large degree by people all flying standard patterns. If you see someone flying past the landing area, you know he's on his downwind leg and will soon be turning onto base and final.

>A solution that I think would work is to put out an arrow pointing in the
>direction of landing during light and variable conditions, with an alternate
>landing area if you don't want to land that direction. Any thoughts?

We have such an arrow, but you can't always trust it. When people do start landing every which way the landing area is "officially closed" and you have to land out. It helps prevent collisions.

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

At a lot of DZ's they solve that very problem by having a default landing direction for light and variable conditions.

[lili 0]

I have seen that, but then it also depends on peoples opinion of whether it is light and variable or not. If the wind sock is showing the light wind direction when they look at it before starting their landing pattern, then often people land "into wind" and not in the default direction, whereas other people still think/realise it is light and variable and land in the default direction (ie. slightly downwind).

Not sure that makes too much sense to read, btu I hope people understand.

Lx

[2shay 0]

What I can not stand is people spiraling in traffic especially when it is directly over the landing area. So I and friends get to wait while we are running out of altitude for this guy to get down se we can set up. Just another common thing I see especially at small dz's that have a boogie.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[breadhead 0]

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The first guy down wants to do a 270

Yeah, 270's are pure evil. Better to do a 450 in that case.

[superstu 0]

in light and variable winds usually the whole load agrees on the landing direction and only if the wind picks up a lot does that change. what i mean by a lot is a noticible and steady amount. communication is key for instances like these.

also, i've seen more instances of people doing a regular downwind, base, and final approach after a RW jump come in at each other than i have a swooper starting above and landing just before a conventional landing person. but both do occur.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[tombuch 0]

This topic has been hashed to death, and I don't want to climb back into it, but it IS an important topic, especially as the northern DZ's get into the summer season.

A few years ago when I was S&TA at The Ranch we decided the landing direction would be defined by each load prior to boarding. It isn't the absolute correct solution, but it works as well, or better, than others. We created a "soft rule" and I wrote it up for the S&TA area of our web site. The article goes into the why and how, and offers terrific graphics to help avoid collisions.

Check out article 12 "Landing Direction Defined" at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[brianfry713 0]

I've seen many people refuse to land slightly downwind even when the conditions are light and variable, and also refuse to land anywhere but close to the hangar. In this case you get people landing in all different directions chasing the wind sock. I've recently seen arguments in the plane regarding setting the default landing direction, by people who just say that they will land into the wind no matter what everyone else does.

I think follow the first person down usually works. There should also be a default direction but if the first person down goes the other way, then everyone else should follow them. It also helps if someone lands well before everyone else, as long as you don't have people competing to be the first one down.

[mnealtx 0]

I think the first person down rule can work, but I can see problems with it as a blanket rule.

An example - let's say you have a 10mph wind and a mixed load of experienced and new jumpers. The first person down rips a downwind swoop. Now you've got several new jumpers that are forced into a high speed (for them) downwind landing because that first person wanted to get their swoop on.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Downwinders are fun. We competitive swoopers love it when we get downwind conditions for our speed and distance runs. But people should only be doing "on purpose downwinders" in controlled environments (ie: hop n' pops, high pulls and previously declared downwinders in specified high performance swoop lanes). If you've got people who insist on setting downwind landing directions on regular loads in regular LZs, then might I suggest you serve them up a friendly conversation first followed by a knuckle sandwich second if they don't see the error in their ways.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mnealtx 0]

Sure - but if you're jumping at a place with a strict "first down" rule, then you're shit out of luck....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,400]

>The first person down rips a downwind swoop.

Result (ideally) -

People who are OK landing downwind land downwind.
People who are not OK landing downwind land away from the main area.
First person down gets a long talking to by the S+TA.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Sure - but if you're jumping at a place with a strict "first down" rule, then you're shit out of luck....

You should be able to land in any direction,but I don't want to be a place where ppl are landing in any and every direction from the same load.

[popsjumper 2]

For the life of me I have never understood the "first down" mentality. Seems to me that it is just asking for problems.
1. First one down wants a downwinder
2. First one down gets stuck doing a downwinder
3. Some don't/can't see the first one down
4. Students trying to figure out WTF under canopy
4. etc., etc.

A standard pattern, determined before the load, is sooooo simple.

We here call our landing pattern at the beginning of the day and it stays that way all day unless the winds change more than 90 degrees and then the DZO or S&TA announces the change and makes sure the entire load knows it before takeoff. You fly the pattern in the main landing area. You want to do anything else? Go over to the alternate landing area. Winds change after takeoff? DZO calls up to the pilot.

We are one of the fortunate ones to have a large enough landing area that we can divide it up into Main, Alternate and Swoop areas.

With respect to young jumpers and students:
Wouldn't you prefer for them to have a solid plan rather than having to figure out these things under canopy until they get some experience and reach a level of confidence and competence?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[phoenixlpr 0]

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For the life of me I have never understood the "first down" mentality. Seems to me that it is just asking for problems.
1. First one down wants a downwinder
2. First one down gets stuck doing a downwinder
3. Some don't/can't see the first one down
4. Students trying to figure out WTF under canopy
4. etc., etc.

Never say never. There is always a plan before boarding. The first down is usually an experienced and responsible jumper who makes the final decision of landing direction. Its is so simple. No more chasing wind socks in light winds.

[popsjumper 2]

I hear you but...."Responsible" is an operative word. Even responsible pilots get hosed now and then. Even responsible pilots are not seen landing every time.

Scenario (not that uncommon):
1st pilot lands into the wind
2nd pilot does not see him and lands downwind
Student sees both and wonders WTF?????

Simple solution: EVERYBODY lands West to East in the main area. Doing something differeent? Land elsewhere (of course, if there even IS and optional elsewhere.)

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[EricaH 0]

What if I'm on a 4 way HD group, 2nd group out behind a 4 way belly. Now all 8 of us opening at about the same altitude & same time but on opposite sides of the landing area (strong uppers = long seperation delay).

If the lower winds are light & variable, how the heck am I suppose to know which way the first man down is going to land? Especially if I'm going to be landing just seconds after him.

I think 1st man down is a completely hokie rule & only works in some situations. Especially if many of the first people down are swoopers - they land in a seperate area & have their own directional issues. Then what the 4th/5th person landing sets the direction & everyone else has to hang in brakes far away trying to figure out just exactly who that is.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[phoenixlpr 0]

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If the lower winds are light & variable, how the heck am I suppose to know which way the first man down is going to land? Especially if I'm going to be landing just seconds after him.

By watching it? Have you seen accuracy jumpers landing from the same jump run? Why oh, why do they land as they do? Vertical separation?

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I think 1st man down is a completely hokie rule & only works in some situations. Especially if many of the first people down are swoopers - they land in a seperate area & have their own directional issues. Then what the 4th/5th person landing sets the direction & everyone else has to hang in brakes far away trying to figure out just exactly who that is.

Do you have to make it complicated? You should know well who is counted as the first man down....

Anyway there is always someone spiraling down and setting the direction. You may create a conflict or solve it. Its up to you.

[billvon 2,400]

>A standard pattern, determined before the load, is sooooo simple.

That works better in places where the winds do not shift violently and rapidly. If we tried to implement that at Perris, you'd see a lot of potential for 15kt downwinders.

[EricaH 0]

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If the lower winds are light & variable, how the heck am I suppose to know which way the first man down is going to land? Especially if I'm going to be landing just seconds after him.

By watching it? Have you seen accuracy jumpers landing from the same jump run? Why oh, why do they land as they do? Vertical separation?

"By watching it" that's what I'm saying is the problem - you can't tell by watching it. Besides, comparing a typical landing pattern to accuracy landing doesn't work - they're not the same. I'd put their landing sequence/set-up more like the swooping competition landing than regular fun jumps.
If I'm at approx the same altitude & approx the same wing loading with 7 other people; 4 on one side of the landing area & the other 4 on the other side (which happens) - light & variable winds - unless someone specifically spirals down (which is not the thing to do) - there's no telling who will be the first to land. Well, I guess I could study each person's sink ratio, but I'd rather have my head on a swivel making sure I'm not about to intersect with someone else. Add in follow the first man down rule - now I also now don't know which direction they're going to pick so I don't know how to set up.

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I think 1st man down is a completely hokie rule & only works in some situations. Especially if many of the first people down are swoopers - they land in a seperate area & have their own directional issues. Then what, the 4th/5th person landing sets the direction & everyone else has to hang in brakes far away trying to figure out just exactly who that is.

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Do you have to make it complicated? You should know well who is counted as the first man down....

Landing can be often complicated - it should never be assumed that it will be simplified (ass - u - me kinda thing)yes, I can be quite pessimestic). I am quite often one of the first 6 people landing (unless there was a much larger group out first) - often it's difficult to tell who will be landing first. Given my mid/high wing loading and HD flying I often land before the later RW groups even though I left after them - I open the same altitude & sink faster. First man down just beggs for the first 4 + people to have landing direction issues. Plus if you're at a new drop zone - where you may know no one, how are you suppose to tell who'll be first down. I've never seen anyone get on a plane (even at Parris, Eloy and Elsinore) and ask "what color canopy will be landing first so I can watch you". What if I'm on a specter sinking fast & have to make a set-up decision before the 1st man down who happens to have a slightly higher wingloading (but I don't know that) left the plane 8 seconds before me but pulled almost just 500 feet higher and is on a long gliding Stilletto even starts his cross-wind leg. Yes, it's a specific situation but one I have personally faced and given the number of variables that go into determining landing order I'm sure there are many more situations I could dream up. What if it looks like a base leg but is actually the "cross-wind" leg going to a diffent landing area not landing into the wind? Too many variables.

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Anyway there is always someone spiraling down and setting the direction. You may create a conflict or solve it. Its up to you.

If i'm holding in brakes I could be causing more issues than there were to start with. Now on my canopy I'll be sinking through the lighter loaded canopies once I finally figure out which way to set up. Not to mention the people behind me that wonder what the heck I'm doing or the swoopers that are tring to stay out of everyone's way man now think I'm either in their way or that I'm in their pattern (which is not where I want to be).
No there is not always someone spiraling down - there rarely is, guess different dzs have different issues. Unless I'm at Perris, then I'll find out which one is BillVon & get his canopy color since I trust him as a leader. Dang it, I forgot that I don't trust anyone under canopy - you all want to kill me.

When you learn to fly your canopy you learn not to follow another canopy down, they have different glide ratios & different wing loadings, it's just not smart.

If I'm visiting a dz & the winds are gusting from light and variable to violently changing direction and over 15 mph - I'm sitting my fat arse on the ground. Also, when I'm visiting a dz, if they have a 1st man down rule, I limit myself to 2 way HD jumps & pull a bit higher than normal (3,500' ish) so I'll hopefully be one of the last people to land. It just sucks to limit group size because of that.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[phoenixlpr 0]

Sure. You win. You don't want to solve this. I jump either hop'n'pop or wing suit. That's not my problem. The rest is up to you.

[mnealtx 0]

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Never say never. There is always a plan before boarding.

Really? When did that go into the BSR's?

Not all DZ's have a "standard direction" rule, just as all DZ's don't have a "first down" rule.

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The first down is usually an experienced and responsible jumper who makes the final decision of landing direction. Its is so simple. No more chasing wind socks in light winds.

And if that "experienced and responsible jumper" that is first down decides to do a downwind swoop, then what?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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That works better in places where the winds do not shift violently and rapidly. If we tried to implement that at Perris, you'd see a lot of potential for 15kt downwinders.

Sure - but didn't you also say that manifest radios the pilot if there are large changes in wind direction, so that they can warn the jumpers?

Another (possible) solution is to have several "standard directions" based on wind conditions? That way , if there IS a change in wind, everyone knows what the change is and where they should be setting up?

As an example:

Winds from 000-090 degrees: RH pattern, base leg heading North

Winds from 090-180 degrees: RH pattern, base leg heading East

Winds from 180-270 degrees: LH pattern, base leg heading South

Winds from 270-360 degrees: LH pattern, base leg heading West

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skr 1]

> I think 1st man down is a completely hokie rule

Wonderful, I'm not the only one.

I think that "first person down" sound bite
is even more inadequate than the "45 degree"
sound bite.

You can't know how to setup for your own
landing until you see someone else land.

You can't see who is first down and which
way they were going without fixating on
the landing area trying to guess who it is
going to be, so you're zooming around
not watching where you are going.


People keep telling me it works at Eloy,
but no, it doesn't. "First person down"
is one part of a very structured environment.

There are tons of wind indicators, so you
can guess which way it will probably develop
as soon as you open.

There are only two possible directions in
each grassy area.

The hook turners always go along the fence,
and do their hook at one end or the other,
so you can stay out of that air space.

But out here in the wild, without all that
other structure, without a Bryan Burke to
gently guide people through life ...

Skr