Should 6 Year Olds Do Tandems? (Was: 15-year-old needs tandem)

[GrabGrass 0]

And in the U.S. a guy got ticketed for taking his dog on a tandem hang glider, the ASPCA was pissed.

~ "Pack Fast, Pull Low... and Date Your Riggers WIFE!" ~

[chrismgtis 0]

I think most of you still fail, regardless of the numerous points some of us making some sense have given you.

The rules/regulations/law is/are, you're 18 or you don't skydive because you can't sign a waiver and you're parents do not have that right as your guardian/parent.
This may not be the case on a non-USPA dropzone, but it should be, because they are creating risks for this sport that those of us working with the USPA to play it safe are trying to prevent.

When an accident does occur with a jumper that was not following the rules that the rest of us follow, it has the potential to hurt the sport, not just the person participating in the dive or his/her family.

There is always that risk even for USPA licensed jumpers at USPA drop zones, but at least we are following the rules that the USPA and FAA have agreed on which create a lesser risk of problems in the event accidents do occur.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[slotperfect 7]

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I think most of you still fail, regardless of the numerous points some of us making some sense have given you.

The principle of taking up underage tandem students and the reality of available opportunities are two different conversations. Depending on the position one finds himself in (parent, instructor, DZO, etc.), the decision whether or not to allow underage tandems may show itself at some point. Contrary to your comment, this is not always determined by laws or regulations.

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The rules/regulations/law is/are, you're 18 or you don't skydive because you can't sign a waiver and you're parents do not have that right as your guardian/parent.

I am not a lawyer, but I did some homework, including consulting a lawyer, about underage tandem students. First, the FARs (Part 105.45) do not specify a minimum age for tandem students. Before tandem jumps became a part of FAR Part 105, they were conducted under an exemption, which did specify students were to be at least 18 years old. That limit is no longer in place. Second, many state and local laws do not prohibit underage tandems as others do. Third, USPA's minimum age for skydiving students is 16 with parental or guardian consent (SIM, Section 2-1.D.1.b.). There is no specific age limit for tandem students.

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This may not be the case on a non-USPA dropzone, but it should be, because they are creating risks for this sport that those of us working with the USPA to play it safe are trying to prevent.

Many well-established USPA dropzones in the US have a long standing history of successfully training students from the age of 16. Also, as you may have read in other posts in this thread, other countries allow much younger tandem students. Please remember that this is an international forum.

Personally, I am happy with the USPA's 16 year old limit, and happily/comfortably operate within that limit here in the US. I do believe there is a line to be drawn regarding age of students, but since I freely accept the limits in the US I have not given a lot of thought to that number.

Arrive Safely

John

[kelpdiver 2]

The only legal matter is the inability of a minor to sign a binding waiver.

Removing that, to me the issues are 1) ability to understand risk and 2) proper fit of a commonly used harness, as opposed to a special rig for the 40lb tyke that hardly ever gets used.

I don't like seeing pre teens diving either - the body hasn't fully developed and in particular the PFO in the heart is much more likely to be open.

Kids want to do these activities, and no doubt parents would love for them to do it, both for the sharing time and the convenience factor. But sometimes they have to be the adult and say no.

[chrismgtis 0]

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Third, USPA's minimum age for skydiving students is 16 with parental or guardian consent (SIM, Section 2-1.D.1.b.). There is no specific age limit for tandem students.

You still entirely fail to see the point that I'm at least trying to get across.

The USPA is basically the only organization I know of that trys to protect our asses when something the general public or FAA doesn't like happens. I think it's for our own good to follow it's rules.

These days one person with nothing better to do than ruin someones fun can ruin it for everyone. If you can't smoke in a bar, yet you can drink to your heart's content, you know something is wrong in the world.

Hey, I'm just a 35 jump wonder at this point in time and new to the sport, but what I do understand is how quickly our privileges can be taken away.

I hope that if someone jumping outside of a USPA dropzone is in an accident and dies, that the FAA and the public can simply be told "He/she didn't want to follow the rules that most of us follow. The rest of us follow safe regulations." and thats that.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[strop45 0]

Yes, we understand your point - you keep making precisely the same one over and over - if something happens, then someone might react in an over the top manner, and this might affect you.

Frankly if we extend this philosophy logically, then we wouldn't skydive, we wouldn't drive cars (public transport is statistically safer), after all we wouldn't want to risk the government regulating.

I rather that children could skydive, than they had access to guns, but then I guess that I have a topsy-turby view of the world.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[slotperfect 7]

*Sigh*

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You still entirely fail to see the point that I'm at least trying to get across.

The USPA is basically the only organization I know of that trys to protect our asses when something the general public or FAA doesn't like happens. I think it's for our own good to follow it's rules.

If a DZ allows students who are 16 years old with notarized parental or guardian consent, they ARE following USPAs BSRs. So what exactly IS your point? My reply was to your "bottom line" statement about tandems for students who are under 18. You made a blanket statement that is incorrect.

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These days one person with nothing better to do than ruin someones fun can ruin it for everyone. If you can't smoke in a bar, yet you can drink to your heart's content, you know something is wrong in the world.

I don't understand your analogy.

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I hope that if someone jumping outside of a USPA dropzone is in an accident and dies, that the FAA and the public can simply be told "He/she didn't want to follow the rules that most of us follow. The rest of us follow safe regulations." and thats that.

It is a DZO's choice whether or not to be a USPA Group Member. They accept all of the possible risks of going alone when they do so. But the reality of it is, they are required to adhere to the FARs along with state and local laws. They are NOT required to become USPA Group members.

Do I think a USPA Group Memberhip is a good idea? Yes. Do I support USPA? Yes. Do I follow the BSRs? Yes. Am I going to judge DZOs who choose not to be USPA Group Members? No.

Arrive Safely

John

[kelpdiver 2]

short of one of us taking out a plane in FF, I don't think the government is ever going to care if 30 daredevils die each year skydiving.

DZOs need to act in their business's best interest. Skydivers should act in their own for safety AND happiness in life. But if you go around worrying about the worst case scenarios all the time, happiness is on that golf course.

[jumpwally 0]

No they should not,,they have no idea whats going on let alone appreciate the event, its nothing more than just some parent and his bragging rights...

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[tonka 2]

I have to agree that skydiving is a high risk activity for adults. I was DZ kid all my life and never did a tandem until I was 16 and it was all legal.

A child being hurt/killed in most high risk sports does not make the sport look bad but if this happened skydiving in the United States it would really look bad for the sport.

Anyone who has been around skydiving for a while knows that friends can and will die skydiving or be seroiusly injured. How would you feel if this happened to a child on a busy Saturday? Just might make you think that children should watch skydiving from the ground like I did when I was a little kid. I even watched ash dives from the ground as a child-What if one of them was for a child?

Just last Sunday I witnessed a tandem double malfunction. Both jumpers will recover but were injured pretty good. I know a child would have been injured worse with such a hard landing and thats something im not ready for this sport to accept.

As a packer I do not want the responsibility of a small child going on a tandem. Even if it is not my fault I would not want a child getting hurt on my pack job.

I packed the main on the double malfunction and I feel bad enough. I don't know what I would do if it was a child tandem passenger. Over one year of packing and over 1000 tandem pack jobs and my first malfunction ends in a double mal. It was a broken line on opening and not my fault at all but I still feel bad. A good friend of mine and a tandem passenger are in the hospital. I couldn't handle the passenger being a child, especially since I was one of the first on scene where thay came down.

Thats just my point of view. Even if the child is the son/daughter of a tandem instructor are you ready to see such a tragedy, because I am not.

[Tonto 1]

What was the wing loading on the double mal?

I had a double malfunction on a Tandem loaded to 1.1 on the reserve. Our DZ is 5000ft AMSL. A lighter passenger, like a child, would have significantly reduced our risk of injury had I not managed to resolve the issue. Tandem double mals are a frequent occurence. Several are documented on this website.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[tonka 2]

Wing loading was about the same as yours.

Taking a lighter passenger like a child usually means taking a smaller canopy so a child may not be any better off. I think they would be worse off because children are on average more fragile than adults. If the instructor takes the impact on himself with a child passenger then the child would probably be better off than an adult passenger but under any other circumstances I think the child would be worse off.

[Tonto 1]

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Taking a lighter passenger like a child usually means taking a smaller canopy.

Not here. I took my daughter at 8 on a rig with a 420 main and a 360 reserve.

Chris took his son at under 4 with the same rig.

No change to the gear whatsoever.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[tonka 2]

You are right. A malfunction would be easier to deal with if you have a lighter passenger any impact would be less because of the lighter loading. Sorry.

[Tonto 1]

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My other daughter is now 8 and is on the same path it seems. Nag, nag, nag. I'm no longer a TM, so we'll have to think about this a bit.

Well, after thinking about it for a bit she did her Tandem on Fathers Day. She loved it.

Pics here.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[wildfan75 1]

The picture of you guys looking at each other in freefall is priceless.

[Tonto 1]

Thanks.
I can't begin to describe that moment, but I don't think either of us will forget it.

After reading this thread again, and thinking about the "there is no benefit to a child doing a Tandem" idea, I must disagree. Although I love her unconditionally, she feels better being a part of the world I live in. She's been hanging around the DZ for years. I really think she was ready for this. Next one will be in the summer (It's cold here now) and her big sister (Now 13) will do her 3rd tandem then too.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[airtwardo 6]

Just wondering...

Is she STILL a excited as she looks in the Pic?

Think she will 'take up' the sport in the future?


And for the record...I think sharing something like that would be

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Zenister 0]

It should be entirely up to the parent and the DZO.

It saddens me that questions like this clearly illustrate how far from the principles of Freedom and Liberty the US has strayed.

It should be very obvious from this thread alone that the rest of the world is far less anal about what an individual can and cannot do with their own life.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Tonto 1]

No, she's not still excited. She's been back at school for 3 days, but I've got the girls again this weekend because I will be in Germany for 2 weekends, so we'll be back out to the DZ.

I have no idea if she will take up the sport in future. If she does, it will only be when she's 16, apart from tandems. She certainly won't need to skydive to be special and loved by me. Same with the elder daughter, who is far more interested in scuba than skydiving.

It's the year of the Pig.

[Miami 0]

Thanks for posting those pics, Tonto...she looks like she had a great time! If my daughter still wants to I'd love to take her on a tandem as soon as she is big enough (she's 3 and a half now, I figure she be big enough around 7 or 8), it looks like the best bet will be for me to take a vacation with her out of the US to avoid complication!

Miami

[Tonto 1]

With Caleigh, (my elder daughter) her mother and I first thought 7, and then decieded to wait an extra year until she was 8. With Shanna, she decieded she wasn't ready at 8, and waited 2 days before her 9th birthday before the event.

If you know your children, and you listen to them, you'll have a good idea of whether they are doing this for you, or because others are doing it, or because they want to do it. I've seen a lot of SO's do jumps for the wrong reasons, and I didn't want my children in the same position.

My children also had the added benefit of knowing the TM (me in the 1st case and Chris in the 2nd) for their whole lives. They have grown up with his child, and the trust was complete and strong.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[ast4711 0]

Tonto,

congrats to these pics, shure they will get a very prominent place in your house :-)

I have 4 kids, oldest is 7. I took them in the plane on some occassions (just sitting them in a tandemharness prepared but we were shure not to jump (except emergency). They have asked to do that by the way, I would never push anyone to either fly or jump, it must come from themselves....

But how did you deal with the ear pressure? I experienced that this is the only negative impression they got. I explained and practiced that with them before, but they were not really able get this right.
If they want to fly again, I try to get a hop-n-pop lift with max 1500m because of this.

To come back to the original question:
I would take my own son/daughter on a tandem if they _relly want_ it, but I think not before they are 9 or 10 years old, and again, it must come from them!!
Once I had a 8 year old girl - we did not know each other before - and she enjoyed it a lot. But as her father I would have refused to let her jump with a total stranger, he even wasn`t in the plane...
But I must say it went perfectly. I took very long time for briefing and explaining just everything, which she liked. It helps if you have kids by yourself by the way.

alex

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

[Tonto 1]

I have no skydiving pictures up in my house. I've never really done it for the pictures, but these may look really nice. I'll wait till Dec though when I have good pics of both of them. Don't want any sibbling rivalry just yet!

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But how did you deal with the ear pressure?

Since Shanna has been about 5, she's been swimming a lot underwater, and quite deep underwater too. In December, summertime here. she was spending about 30 seconds as deep as 14 ft(4.2m), and mostly we feel the need to 1st equalise at about 6ft. (1.8m) This means she's already comfortable with the concept of equalisation as we discussed this several years ago when she was trying to follow me to the bottom of the pool. (I may have some pics of her swimming about at the bottom of the pool on my PC at home)

I cheated on her 1st plane ride by giving her a couple of sweets to munch on, as the swallowing makes it easier for us to equalise. Mainly kids tend to wait till it hurts, and then cry. At that point they're overwhelmed by the pain and don't think their way through things very well - just like adults. If you can teach them to recognise what it feels like as it starts, they're perfectly capable of managing it when it happens. Driving up and down a mountain pass is ideal for this. (let someone else drive so you can discuss the feelings with your child.) All we're dealing with is a new experience - and I think kids handle new experiences pretty well.

When you're practicing equalisation with them, I think it's easier to practice behind them, so that they don't feel the need for your physical presence to be able to perform. If you're the TM, that's where you will be anyway. Last thing is kids have a lot of snotty noses when they're young. No jumping with sinus issues. They won't know about that, so it's up to you. Ask then to sniff and see if they sound blocked.

One more pic, heading for the door after watching the 4 way leave..

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Zenister 0]

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But how did you deal with the ear pressure? I experienced that this is the only negative impression they got. I explained and practiced that with them before, but they were not really able get this right.
If they want to fly again, I try to get a hop-n-pop lift with max 1500m because of this.

give them gum for the ride up. My uncle used to give me gum everytime I got into his plane.. never connected the reason until much later. (just dont for get to have them take it out... which wasnt a problem during an observer ride vs a skydive)

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.