Should minimum recommendations apply to you?

[DeNReN 0]

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For example I can't do a snow jump or a night jump on my S license.

Cannot do a nightjump with a solo......but I dont see anything about a snow jump....however snow covered landing areas do present a hazard as the solid colour and reflective qualities of snow can play tricks on the eyes...ie: depth perception can be effected... and running out a fast landing in snow usually results in a nice face plant and a "poof" of snow

The CSPA TR's address camera and wing suit flying buy wanting a C CoP..but they are TR's and not BSR's(hint..learn whats a BSR and whats a TR before taking the A CoP test)

[Beatnik 2]

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The CSPA TR's address camera and wing suit flying buy wanting a C CoP..but they are TR's and not BSR's(hint..learn whats a BSR and whats a TR before taking the A CoP test)

You should read the first paragraph of Section 3 PIM1. They might be a recommendation and not the absolute minimums but if you want them waived you have to apply for it in writing.

Just because they are a recommendation doesn't give you the right or ability to waive these recommendations like many people with the same notion that a recommendation is not a BSR.

[DeNReN 0]

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The CSPA TR's address camera and wing suit flying buy wanting a C CoP..but they are TR's and not BSR's(hint..learn whats a BSR and whats a TR before taking the A CoP test)

You should read the first paragraph of Section 3 PIM1. They might be a recommendation and not the absolute minimums but if you want them waived you have to apply for it in writing.

Just because they are a recommendation doesn't give you the right or ability to waive these recommendations like many people with the same notion that a recommendation is not a BSR.

you misunderstand...I do not break nor condone breaking of the BSR's and TR's....merely pointing out that knowing which is which is helpful in getting one's A CoP..as is knowing all of Pim 1...and 2a...

to keep on topic now that I've caused thread drift....

Yes.

[billvon 2,463]

One thing that caught my eye was the suggestion that since this guy was a ski jumper he should have been able to perform wingsuit jumps sooner.

This, to me, seems backwards. When I am teaching the FJC and someone shows up who's a military static line jumper, that's a huge red flag. It means that he has a heavily-trained set of incorrect reflexes that have to be trained OUT of them, and they almost invariably need more walkthroughs to get to an acceptable level of performance. Even then, they are more likely to screw up in the air because they have previous training to revert to.

Likewise, if someone is used to controlling a ballistic flight with two large skis attached to their feet, they are likely to have some very inappropriate reflexes when it comes to controlling their flight in a wingsuit.

We all see a version of this when whuffos make assumptions about skydiving. "Mountain climbers must need no training at all, because they're not afraid of heights and are used to falling off things!" (heard that during one FJC.) They are dangerous assumptions to make, and are often 180 degrees wrong.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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One thing that caught my eye was the suggestion that since this guy was a ski jumper he should have been able to perform wingsuit jumps sooner.

Being an expert ski jumper means one thing. The deceased was an expert ski jumper. He sure as hell wasn't an expert skydiver. I live about 15 minutes away from a world class ski jump facility (Canada Olympic Park site of the '88 Winter Olympics) and I see some similarities between swooping and ski jumping. We both travel similar speeds across the deck, we both travel a similar distance before we touch down and while ski jumpers are a littler higher off of the deck, swooping with the ground below us is similar and believe me the thought has crossed my mind that "hmmm maybe I should try it, it might be fun". But I would be a fool to strap on some skiis and just head on up the 70 meter hill and try my luck at ski jumping (the Wide World of Sports agony of defeat footage comes to mind).

I don't want to sound like a hyprocrite too much here. In some people's eyes I did progress in certain disciplines in skydiving faster than many would have recommended. I am a member of the Cypres club pitching my main at 2k after pulling out of a head down jump at 3k (yes altitude awareness was lost) and the cypres fired at about 1100-1200 feet AGL ... it's all on video. I have come close to taking people out on head down jumps on two occasions and I have dug myself out of the corner while learning to swoop more times than I can remember. Shit can happen to anyone in this sport. None of us are the exception to the rule and none of us are "all that". Death can happen to anyone of us. But when we push the envelope, the chances of death happening to someone with less experience is higher than the chances of death happening to a more experienced jumper.

Sadly I doubt very many "I'm special" people will learn the lesson. Who's next? Someone is ... but who?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lauraliscious 0]

Yes, I'm special...just like everyone else.

They are basic MINIMUMS for a reason. Part of the problem, IMO, is more experienced jumpers pushing newer jumpers beyond their abilities/limits. I know you have to push your abilities to get better and it is good to try new things but there is a very fine line of pushing your abilities in this sport because mistakes can kill. I think there is a lot of peer pressure to make jumps people are not ready for. Not saying that was the case in this incident, but I do see it happen a lot, whether it be freeflying, downsizing, bigger way jumps, wingsuits, CRW, whatever. Some people aren't very good at saying no.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[Kynan1 0]

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A skydiver that I will leave nameless once told me "recommendations are just that, recommendations".

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I may have said that oneIt's nothing against the recommendations that are out there today for people, but again, they are just that "recommendations".
The government recommends I don't drive over 55mph, but I've managed to get by just fine speeding.
Don't freefly with less than 200 jumps. Another "great" recommendation. I started @20 jumps and it went just fine.
Don't fly a camera, until you have 200 jumps.
Jumped one with 80 jumps or something.
Point being, it's your life, if your ok with taking the extra risks without harming someone else, take them. Otherwise, I would stick with a bowling league, not skydiving.
That said, your altitude awareness is much better after a few hundred jump, than with just 50.

[skybytch 259]

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The government recommends I don't drive over 55mph, but I've managed to get by just fine speeding. Don't freefly with less than 200 jumps. Another "great" recommendation. I started @20 jumps and it went just fine.
Don't fly a camera, until you have 200 jumps.
Jumped one with 80 jumps or something.

Because I got away with driving 100+ mph after three or four beers numerous times at age 16 without killing myself or anyone else does not mean that driving 100+ mph after three or four beers at age 16 was a smart thing to do. It means I got lucky.

Because I got away with stowing the top of my toggle into the guide ring for 20 jumps doesn't mean that stowing the top of a toggle in the guide ring is safe. It means I got lucky.

Getting away with it leads to complacency. Complacency kills.

[billvon 2,463]

>Point being, it's your life, if your ok with taking the extra risks
>without harming someone else, take them.

Problem is that some jumpers can't even comprehend the risks until they get to a certain level of experience. You wouldn't give a jumper with 10 jumps a Xaos-27 89, would you? Even if he swore up and down he is OK with a little extra risk?

Ask yourself why you would think that he was incapable of making his own decisions on risk. Whatever answer you get, that's why some of us are trying to slow down newer jumpers, so that they do not take massive risks before they can understand what they're risking.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Because I got away with stowing the top of my toggle into the guide ring for 20 jumps doesn't mean that stowing the top of a toggle in the guide ring is safe. It means I got lucky.

ROFLMAO ... (well not really but for added drama why not). Just because I was setting my brakes wrong on my Basic Research BASE rig for my first 50-60 BASE jumps including many of those being cliff jumps (I guess BRs design was more skydiver'ish and more forgiving for the mistake I was making than another manufacturers gear) but man was I in for a surprise on my first jump in Idaho on my new Vertigo rig when my brake fired on opening. Fortunately this happened at a forgiving site, at a site I was very familiar with and at a time when flying and landing my canopy on rears is something I routinely do. But that doesn't mean it was safe. It could have been a different story had my first jump on this rig occured at a less forgiving site.

Complacency kills!!! You got that right.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Beatnik 2]

You weren't the person that I was referring to. The person I was referring pushed the limits of another jumper with deviasating results. That story is not what this forum is about.

Because you pushed the recommended minimums means nothing. That is a small sample size and in the scheme of such a large argument is irrelevant.

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Point being, it's your life, if your ok with taking the extra risks without harming someone else, take them. Otherwise, I would stick with a bowling league, not skydiving.

It might be your life but it affects everyone else around as well. There is no way that you can honestly tell me that if you do something that causes you to die at a dropzone is not going to harm anyone else. There is enough extra risks associated with this sport there is no need to subject yourself to extra ones.

[kallend 1,672]

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The government recommends I don't drive over 55mph, but I've managed to get by just fine speeding. Don't freefly with less than 200 jumps. Another "great" recommendation. I started @20 jumps and it went just fine.
Don't fly a camera, until you have 200 jumps.
Jumped one with 80 jumps or something.

Because I got away with driving 100+ mph after three or four beers numerous times at age 16 without killing myself or anyone else does not mean that driving 100+ mph after three or four beers at age 16 was a smart thing to do. It means I got lucky.

Because I got away with stowing the top of my toggle into the guide ring for 20 jumps doesn't mean that stowing the top of a toggle in the guide ring is safe. It means I got lucky.

Getting away with it leads to complacency. Complacency kills.

"Do as I say, not as I do".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skybytch 259]

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"Do as I say, not as I do".

And your point is?

A few quotes that may (or may not) be relevant -

In flying I have learned that carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks.

— Wilbur Wright in a letter to his father, September 1900.

There are no new types of aircrashes — only people with short memories. Every accident has its own forerunners, and every one happens either because somebody did not know where to draw the vital dividing line between the unforeseen and the unforeseeable or because well-meaning people deemed the risk acceptable.

If politics is the art of the possible, and flying is the art of the seemingly impossible, then air safety must be the art of the economically viable. At a time of crowded skies and sharpening competition, it is a daunting task not to let the art of the acceptable deteriorate into the dodgers' art of what you can get away with.

— Stephen Barlay, 'The Final Call: Why Airline Disasters Continue to Happen,' March 1990.

What is the cause of most aviation accidents:
Usually it is because someone does too much too soon, followed very quickly by too little too late.

— Steve Wilson, NTSB investigator, Oshkosh, WI , August, 1996.

You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it ...

— Air Traffic Controller, New York TRACON, Westbury Long island. Opening quotation in movie 'Pushing Tin', 1999.

Flying is so many parts skill, so many parts planning, so many parts maintenance, and so many parts luck. The trick is to reduce the luck by increasing the others.

— David L. Baker

The principles are the same in aviation and space safety. You always have to fight complacency—you need formal programs to ensure that safety is always kept in mind.

— Jerome Lederer, interview with the New York Times, 1967

The route to the target is more important than the target. We are going to go for the target, but we enjoy the route as well.

— Israeli Air Force Col. Ilan Ramon, to reporters on the eve of his Space Shuttle flight, 16 January 2003. STS-107 was lost on re-entry on 1 February 2003.

I am a history major. I believe that the past is prologue. The archives bear that out. Most major aircraft accidents are not acts of God. In our recommendations we try to take what we have learned and correct situations so it shouldn't happen again.

— James Hall, NTSB, 1996.

Complacency or a false sense of security should not be allowed to develop as a result of long periods without an accident or serious incident. An organization with a good safety record is not necessarily a safe organization.

— International Civil Aviation Organization, 'Accident Prevention Manual, 1984.

[kallend 1,672]

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"Do as I say, not as I do".

And your point is?

You admit doing dumb things yourself but get on the case of others.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skybytch 259]

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You admit doing dumb things yourself but get on the case of others.

In the hopes that others can learn from my mistakes.

Isn't it better to learn from other people's mistakes than it is to learn by making the same mistakes that they did? Especially if those mistakes could be painful or fatal?

[kallend 1,672]

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You admit doing dumb things yourself but get on the case of others.

In the hopes that others can learn from my mistakes.

Isn't it better to learn from other people's mistakes than it is to learn by making the same mistakes that they did? Especially if those mistakes could be painful or fatal?

I think it should be their prerogative to decide, just like it was yours and mine.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sundance 1]

I think Skybytch is a pretty damn smart girl. I would jump with her anytime.

One of the surest signs that intelligent life exists in outer space is that none of it has tried to contact us.

[skybytch 259]

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I think it should be their prerogative to decide, just like it was yours and mine.

So would it be okay with you if the guy following you out of the plane uses the 45 degree rule? After all, it's his prerogative to decide if the 45 degree rule is right or not.

Or how about if somebody does a 270 into the same airspace that you are flying through? After all, it's his prerogative to decide how and where he wants to land.

[NWFlyer 2]

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You admit doing dumb things yourself but get on the case of others.

There's a huge difference between what Lisa's saying ("I did stupid things and I was very lucky to have gotten away with them") and what others are saying ("I did stupid things and because things worked out okay they must not have been that stupid.")

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,463]

>You admit doing dumb things yourself but get on the case of others.

I have done dumb things too. In hindsight the reason I survived was dumb luck, not being smart and so skilled that I "showed those naysayers they were wrong!"

Most skydivers do dumb stuff when they start out. Once they have the experience to reflect on their past, they can take two approaches to it:

1. "Wow, that was dumb. Hopefully I can teach the next generation of jumpers so they don't have to make the same mistakes."

2. "I survived so it must not have been dumb for me to do! Indeed I have set a new standard that most people can simply not live up to. Other than those as exceptional as I am, of course."

I favor taking approach 1 over approach 2.

[Baksteen 84]

Should minimun requirements apply to me...

I would ask the question a bit differently,
"DO minimum requirements apply to me?"

for example:
If I make 16 more jumps, Dutch "minimum requirements" would allow me to jump a Safire2 170, which would then be loaded at exactly 1.3.

But I ask myself: Should I want this, knowing where my difficulties lie?

Landings themselves are (nearly) always soft and sweet, and freefall generally isn't the problem either.
However, last-minute changes in the planning of my approach and in the determination of my conservative pattern are. So I think a more docile canopy type, say a Spectre or a Pilot, of min. 190 sq. ft should be more than exiting enough for me - when I feel I'm ready, not when minimum requirements say I'm ready.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Liemberg 0]

In the vast majority of cases (and also the tragic incident that gave rise to this debate) the principal victim of the wrong decision is the person involved a.k.a. "the deceased".

Of course it can be argued that even where that is the case "the sport receives a black eye".

Indeed, any published incident "in the neighbourhood" does bring its share of cancellations from our appreciated tandemguests - but as many enquiries from "wannabees" so the endresult is a hung jury IMO.

Anyway, with the caveat that their prerogative to decide should not interfere directly with my personal well being (or that of their fellowjumpers) I think it goes and I wouldn't want to have it any other way.

For I always found that the most effective way of instructing-that-you-could-die-doing-this (or hurt yourself bigway) is tell people the facts - being blunt often gets you their undivided attention, so to speak...

Once they are treated like grown-ups, only a few keep behaving like toddlers...

And while I'm at it, being severe: without knowing exactly what went wrong with Race's WS jump, for most people he WOULD serve as a beacon "120 jumps wonder*) flies WS into the ground without any handle pulled" - "Hey, maybe this IS more complicated than I think at first glance..."

What you know and what you don't know is often well covered from jump one on. The exception lies in that part of what you don't know AND don't know that you don't know...

When I strap a passenger in front of me I'm pretty much on top of the game and AFAIK I'm qualified to get myself one of them wingsuits and go play.

However - I wouldn't do that without seeking some qualified "hands on" guidance. After all, I DO have some experience in making parachutejumping a bit more "interesting" by adding a few complicating factors. In the case of tandemjumping the excellent training I got was hardly adequate against my natural stupidity and it is sheer luck I'm still alive to write this. But with that commodity the supply is limited.

"There could be something in the 'I dont know' that could kill me - lets find out beforehand...."

Then again, the total jump numbers of the guy I'd have in mind for giving me said guidance is about a third of MY total jump numbers.

Minimum recommendations? I'll keep deciding about that myself on a case by case basis...

*)Totally uncalled for derogatory qualification about someone I do not know - but when you have met as many "120 jump wonders" as I have and you were to imagine them in a wingsuit, you'd see a whole lot of DGIT's...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[jshak81 0]

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Part of the problem, IMO, is more experienced jumpers pushing newer jumpers beyond their abilities/limits. Some people aren't very good at saying no.

I agree there is peer pressure pushing people, but I think the types of people who have the "going too fast too soon" problem are the ones who are pushing themselves despite other people's recommendations. They are the ones who do not listen to minimum requirements.
They are the "exceptions to the rules" or the "naturals".
I've seen it way too often when you have a "natural" at the dropzone who has mastered canopy flight at jump 24 and at jump 60 decides to downsize to a highly loaded elliptical and double femurs before jump 120. Do people say things to them? Sometimes.
What makes someone a "natural"? Well most likely it is because they are highly coordinated and relaxed. Why are they relaxed? It could be because their perceived risk isn't that high. These people are constantly pushing the limits before they have the skill set to cope with problems because they need to increase their levels of perceived risk. What's worse is that they generally push these limits before they even fully understand the implications or risk involved.

Unfortunately it takes either injury, death or a close call to slow these people down and generally they don't make it in the sport for the long haul.
Just look around at your dropzone, these low jump wonders exist everywhere. And it's very difficult for anyone other than an instructor or S&TA to get through to these people and slow them down.

[Ether 0]

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...It means that he has a heavily-trained set of incorrect reflexes that have to be trained OUT of them...

We all see a version of this when whuffos make assumptions about skydiving. "Mountain climbers must need no training at all, because they're not afraid of heights and are used to falling off things!" (heard that during one FJC.) They are dangerous assumptions to make, and are often 180 degrees wrong.

Absolutely. I had a terrible time in my first IAD jump (and several subsequent IAD jumps) because of dearching. After discussion with my instructors, we concluded this could well because of my rock climbing instincts kicking in -- feeling that I was falling, I pulled my limbs in to protect my vitals, rather than doing the opposite. It was only after switching to PFF that I was able to untrain this instinct. Yes, being used to heights and having good grip helped lots in that first scary climbout, but other training made (and still makes) things more challenging.

(addendum) I have seen this pop up elsewhere too... when riding a motorcycle really fast, when wearing a backpack tugging at my shoulders, with the wind roaring in my face, especially when coming home from the dropzone, sometimes I get a really strong urge to stand up, throw my arms wide, arch arch arch... (and go splat...)

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[hackish 8]

Funny similarity I've checked to make sure the pilot chute on my camera bag is in the right place about 50 times so far. True for learned actions- the camera bag feels like a rig on my shoulders.

Lots of our tasks are limited by the license we have. Maybe an "A" license should be necessary to fly a sport /semi-eliptical/wingloading of X type chute.

-Michael