Near Miss - Crosskeys, NJ 6,7,2007

[Peterkn 17]

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My apologies to all about my comment that USPA was fighting a proposed reg to require all turbine aircraft to have TCAS. Although I'm quite sure I read this, I can not now find any supporting information about the proposed reg or USPAs stance.

I retract my statement on that part of the issue.

You were probably thinking of this statement on the USPA website :

http://www.uspa.org/news/archives.htm#020105

Jump Planes Exempt from TAWS (02/01/05)
USPA has deflected an FAA requirement for a Terrain Awareness and Warning System potentially costing tens of thousands of dollars per turbine jump plane. The rule requires installation of a TAWS by March 29, 2005, on all turbine aircraft with six or more passenger seats. USPA successfully argued that jump planes should be exempt since they fly only in visual flight conditions. The FAA agreed and wrote an exemption for jump aircraft into the final rule.

Pete.

[diverdriver 5]

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You were probably thinking of this statement on the USPA website :

http://www.uspa.org/news/archives.htm#020105

Jump Planes Exempt from TAWS (02/01/05)
USPA has deflected an FAA requirement for a Terrain Awareness and Warning System potentially costing tens of thousands of dollars per turbine jump plane. The rule requires installation of a TAWS by March 29, 2005, on all turbine aircraft with six or more passenger seats. USPA successfully argued that jump planes should be exempt since they fly only in visual flight conditions. The FAA agreed and wrote an exemption for jump aircraft into the final rule.

Pete.

Yes, I'm sure that is what I thought was a discussion on TCAS. TAWS, TCAS so close and yet not. And yes, I don't think TAWS would help jump planes unless they were doing any ferrying to boggies. Different debate.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Zenister 0]

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The airport for Crosskeys IS NOT displayed on our screens and it's not required to be.

this is a SYSTEMS LEVEL FAILURE that needs to be addressed. Yes i'm well aware it takes the FAA years to make changes (or even decisions) but to paraphrase someone who has been dealing with this issue for a while...

"If i were firing 1000 missiles a day UP into the air in a specific area you'd want that area marked on your screen wouldnt you?? why does the direction the hazard travels make a difference?"

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Krip 2]

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But can someone be more specific about the cost of installing a TCAS on a otter and the training involved.

I know the TCAS I replaced the other day was $325,000! That was on a Boeing 777 though.

Hi Rookie

Since this was moved from the incident forum does the price include your tip

[tombuch 0]

It sounds like a few changes are in order.

First, I hope a NASA report has been filed. Then:

1) I’d suggest your airline prepare a briefing statement about the skydiving operation so your transient pilots are aware of what is happening in that airspace, and furnish it as part of the airport specific briefing.

2) Your airline should consider contacting your software vendor to have them include the Crosskeys airport in the FMS database so pilots know what the radio calls relate to. It probably doesn’t show up now because it is listed as a restricted category airport…I think. It can be added, although it won’t show up as a private use field, but at least it will be there.

3) Let your airline know that there is an effort at the federal level to get all drop zones listed in the National Aviation System Resource (NASR), and that the format for that data is available right now as part of ARINC 424-19. Software vendors can already begin writing the code needed to display drop zones so the hardware is ready when the database is released, but that needs to be prompted by a user (airline) request.

4) If there isn’t a Letter of Agreement (LOA) on file for the skydiving operation, there should be, and it should include an appropriate level of detail about where descent can take place. For example, the LOA for The Ranch requires “Descend east of V213 until leaving 7,000 MSL.” Perhaps descent profiles can/should be restricted unless the aircraft is equipped with collision avoidance technology, or similar SA display technology. Contact ATC to find out if there is a current LOA on file, and what it includes.

Those are some quick comments.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[diverdriver 5]

Thanks Tom. If I'm correct you've had a hand in trying to get that database made and put into use. No?

The way an airport gets onto our screens on a normal display from what I've been told is that the airport has a runway at least 5,000 feet long and has an instrument approach to it.

I was surprised at one point when Skydive Chicago (8N2) appeared on our screens. Then, it disappeared. That's when I asked the higher ups and that was the response I got. Was disappointed that it seemed we took a step back just as we were about to take a step forward.

Believe me, our company is all over this subject. Not very happy.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[tombuch 0]

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Thanks Tom. If I'm correct you've had a hand in trying to get that database made and put into use. No?

The way an airport gets onto our screens on a normal display from what I've been told is that the airport has a runway at least 5,000 feet long and has an instrument approach to it.

I was surprised at one point when Skydive Chicago (8N2) appeared on our screens. Then, it disappeared. That's when I asked the higher ups and that was the response I got. Was disappointed that it seemed we took a step back just as we were about to take a step forward.

Believe me, our company is all over this subject. Not very happy.

Yup, I’ve been working that issue pretty heavily for about three years with Ed Scott at USPA.

We managed to get a data string for skydiving drop zones included in revision 19 of the ARINC 424 standard. That is the international data management standard used by FMS systems in larger aircraft and jets. That means airline magic boxes will now have language available to handle drop zone data. However, we don’t yet have that data, nor do FMS or GPS boxes have the ability to actually display skydiving data without programming upgrades.

We also managed to get the National Aviation System Resource (NASR) updated so it can handle drop zone data, and the FAA has established a distribution channel to get that data to users (manufacturers and data packagers).

As I write this, I understand there is a process ongoing between USPA and FAA to source new data covering all drop zones from a combination of USPA and FAA resources. Once that new data has been compiled and verified the database will be populated and released.

At that point we will have created data standards, and produced a distributed database of all known drop zones. That’s a big deal, and a milestone that should be reached this year.

The next step will be to get GPS and FMS box makers and flight planning programs to update their software so it will recognize and display the drop zone data. Unfortunately, none of the manufacturers are interested in doing that without a prompt from their customers.

Each airline flight department purchases proprietary data from providers (such as Jeppesen), and each GPS manufacturer does the same. Any of those manufacturers will have the ability to add drop zone data, but they will need to initiate the request. Actually, the defining standards have been written and published, so airlines can start requesting that their software vendors to write code to display the new data right now. USPA will probably make a big push on that once the database has actually been populated.

As for airlines…they could have their FMS boxes programmed to display drop zones when the aircraft is below a set altitude (such as 15,000 feet), and within a certain distance of the drop zone. The boxes could easily suppress the depiction of drop zones when the aircraft is above normal jump altitudes, or in Class “A” airspace, or when ground track indicates the aircraft will not cross through the target area. It’s a pretty simple process, but the politics of getting it done are complex.

Chris: If your airline is interested, I have some great FAA and industry contacts that can help them understand what data will be available and when.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[skyberdyber 0]

All parties in any airspace in VMC are responsible for maintaining vigilance in aircraft separation whether through visual means or by situational awareness. The FAA would typically fault the controller, and all of the pilots for something like this.
That being said, I don't trust controllers with my ass, nor jet pilots who in my opinion rely too heavily on controllers. Therefore, my King Air has a TCAS. (the $17,000 version, D-bo you avionics snob!)

http://www.skydiveatlanta.com
http://www.musiccityskydiving.com

[Derekbox 0]

I love you too Trey. I'm not an avionics snob, I'm a guru. But you asked for it, you have a TAS, Traffic Advisory Systems, which is like a TCAS, but is not. TCAS is a Honeywell brandname, and that would be the $117k system. Ill take a cut on that parts sale when you decide to upgrade. ;)

By the way, as far as jump ships are concerned, Skydive Atlanta has the best avionics I have seen. Dual Garmins, MFD, TAS... very nice. Looks like they have a good maintenance program too. I think a lot of DZ's could take some pointers from SDA.


and they have great boogies too.
and great chicks too.
and carnival rides.
and stilt walkers.
and freeflying
and djs

[diverdriver 5]

Any Skydive Atlanta pilots care to comment on their TAS system? Helpful? Recommend it for others?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Derekbox 0]

Avidyne TAS 600 Family of Traffic Awareness Systems

I don't have anything good or bad to say about it, I do not personally know the system. I do on the other hand know how to install them.... just tossing that out there.

[skyberdyber 0]

It's actually a Skywatch which is now owned by L3 Communications.
It views 11,000 feet above and 8,000 below. The display is on an Avidyne EX500.
I cannot begin to tell you how much it helps. I know there is traffic in the pattern long before I get down where can see it so I can be looking. It has saved me from some possible near misses.
Also, I don't have to argue with ATC about how I'm VFR when they try to "hold" me at 10,500 to let there IFR pass through when I say "got em on TCAS".
The major drawback is that it becomes a crutch and you find your visual scan suffers. This takes discipline to overcome. However, the benefits well outway the negatives.
Eventually the FAA will require all turbine a/c to have TCAS. Just a matter of time.

http://www.skydiveatlanta.com
http://www.musiccityskydiving.com

[diverdriver 5]

That's great. Maybe we need to spread the word and get these things out there. Had this jump pilot seen a target on the screen just before descending he would have made a different choice on his descent manuever and no one would have been the wiser about a conflict. Because it wouldn't have happened.

What many people forget about skydiving is that it is the only VFR operation that is required by FAR to be in contact with ATC always. Controllers see us as VFR...when really we're "super VFR".

The other thing I don't understand or I'm not aware of the arguements already made on this but inside a Class B vale every aircraft has to have a transponder with Mode C. However, when you leave the jump plane you are invisible. I wonder how they get around this or whether anyone has pushed it.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Andrewwhyte 1]

The way they do it in Canada is they protect the vertical column below the jumpship for the appropriate amount of time following exit. The pilots are expected to inform ATC if there is a high opening planned or when there is an unplanned one.

[skyberdyber 0]

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and they have great boogies too.
and great chicks too.
and carnival rides.
and stilt walkers.
and freeflying
and djs

You mis-spoke D-bo it's:

and great chicks too.
and they have great boobies too.
and carnival rides...

http://www.skydiveatlanta.com
http://www.musiccityskydiving.com

[2shay 0]

you are right, but the simple fact is that this is a risky sport. You don;t like it then quit. All these rules regs and crap are just jacking up the money for us to skydive. If you don't want to risk your life simply don't skydive. Leave the skydiving industry alone it is REALLY expensive as is. I think if the FAA crap goes through later this year then 80% of us unless we make a ton of money are screwed anyways. You could hurt yourself walking. Should there be more walking laws. I just heard the other day that they are going to require helmets for kids that wear the shoes that have rollers on the bottoms of them. Come on guys use your ffffing heads.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[kallend 1,635]

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you are right, but the simple fact is that this is a risky sport. You don;t like it then quit. All these rules regs and crap are just jacking up the money for us to skydive. If you don't want to risk your life simply don't skydive. Leave the skydiving industry alone it is REALLY expensive as is. I think if the FAA crap goes through later this year then 80% of us unless we make a ton of money are screwed anyways. You could hurt yourself walking. Should there be more walking laws. I just heard the other day that they are going to require helmets for kids that wear the shoes that have rollers on the bottoms of them. Come on guys use your ffffing heads.

It is not clear how your comments apply in any way to the topic of this thread about a near midair collision between a jump plane and an airliner.

There is a world of difference between risking your own life and limb and endangering the lives of others.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[V111pilot 1]

Unfortunately technology doesn't always fix things. Look at the Brazilian B737/Embraer business jet mid-air collision BOTH had TCAS on board. Sometimes technology can contribute to complacency. Unfortunately there is no easy answer.

[diverdriver 5]

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Unfortunately technology doesn't always fix things. Look at the Brazilian B737/Embraer business jet mid-air collision BOTH had TCAS on board. Sometimes technology can contribute to complacency. Unfortunately there is no easy answer.

So if technology contributes to complacency why do you have a Cypres on your Reflex? Do you have the Catapult installed on your Reflex? Are you complacent?

Any system has its limitations. You do not know everything that happened on that mid-air with the 737 and Embraer Jet. But I hear this mantra all too often in skydiving that if the idea doesn't fix every single problem then it shouldn't be used or considered. Remember, it was the airline crew that manuevered to avoid this collision threat over Crosskeys. NOT the jump plane. Had the jump plane also had a traffic alert system there quite well have never been a need for evasive manuevers on either part.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[vpjr 1]

My little Cessna 206 has the Garmin GTX 330 transponder with Traffic Information System (TIS). Traffic is displayed on the Garmin 496 GPS and traffic alerts are given over the audio panel. This system has helped me many times. It is hard to see over the nose of a 206 during climb and now I have help finding traffic before atc points them out. The system only looks down 2500 ft below the plane so jumpers must still look before they leap. I have noticed a lot of training going in the atc system and the old timers seem cranky dealing with vfr part 91. PVD approach controllers cannot repeat back an N number unless it is written on a strip in front of them. I am not expecting a lot of help from atc now a days and the IFR 121 guys (I flew part 121 for 2.5 years) should not expect a lot of protection or service either. (Keep your lights on and eyes pealed below 10K) I hope to install this system in my other 206 this winter and at $15000 I have to fly a lot of jumpers with no losses to get my money back. I don’t think TCAS should be mandatory for jump planes but this forum may educate skydivers and pilots to the hazards that are out there. I hope pilots would choose to use safe procedures and skydivers would choose aircraft with this style of safety equipment. The only butt I am trying to protect in the plane is mine but if I make it safely to alt and back then the others around me have a better chance.

[Derekbox 0]

What do you get for that $15k?

[vpjr 1]

http://aerialtransport.com/c20651q.html
Garmin audio panel
GNS 530 tray
Garmin 496 handheld w/ airgismo dock
Garmin SL 30 Nav Com w/ Indicator
Garmin GXT 330 transponder
Installed and GNS 530 IFR approved
$15000
Using the traffic information system to hunt down my other 206 and do formation loads.
Priceless

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Using the traffic information system to hunt down my other 206 and do formation loads.

Jr,
What? Do the airport managers or local ATC guys get "ouchy" if you try to do a "section go" (aka: section takeoff or formation takeoff) so dash-2 doesn't loose sight of lead when you're doing formation loads with your two 206's?

[BillyVance 34]

I remember flying a Delta airline from Atlanta to Philadelphia airport for one of Cross Keys' 100 way events in the late '90s. As the plane was turning onto final, I looked out the window just wondering if I could see the drop zone, 5 seconds later there it was! And yep, I noticed its twin otter flying almost level off in the distance. That DZ sits right outside the main approach corridors, so there are understandably going to be some near misses, I would think. As long as ATC and Cross Keys' pilots keep in constant communication, there won't be any problems.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[vpjr 1]

At some small airports today the only real flying is skydiving. The old timers sitting around talking about flying are happy to see something other than a student landing half way down the field.