2 Stage Flare

[tntsawers 0]

I have just purchased a new main and am being advised to use the 2 stage flare. Can someone explain to me what this is, and how i go about doing it??

[woodpecker 0]

How do you flare your canopy now?

What canopy were you flying before you bought this one?

First stage is to your shoulders, when you lose your foward speed and start decending again you finish your flare. I didnt know this was specific to a canopy though.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[SuperGirl 0]

do a search on the forums, plenty of info there.
also do a search in the safety articles, even more info.
for instance, this one:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=589
(see section 5)

[DougH 270]

You need to talk to your instructors!!

Maybe I am just another one of those internet assholes, but it is a redflag to me that you managed to rack up 100 jumps (on squares?) but you have to ask on the internet about something that is often taught in those first 25 jumps.

If you are missing important parts of skydiving knowledge you shouldn't be filling the gaps with the internet.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[dragon2 0]

Why did you post in 2 forums..?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[denete 2]

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Why did you post in 2 forums..?

Because in a total of 14 posts to dz.com, you're the first person to ask that question. (he's only made 14 posts and hasn't double-posted before)

[billvon 2,435]

>Can someone explain to me what this is, and how i go about doing it??

It means there are two phases to landing the parachute:

1) Level it out at 1 foot above the ground
2) Keep it flying there until it stalls, then step down

It is NOT just "bringing the toggles to your shoulders and then all the way down." Flying a parachute is like driving a car. How far do you have to press the brake pedal down to stop in time? 1 inch? 2 inches? What would you tell someone if they asked you that? You'd probably say something like "it depends - you have to try it."

Same thing here. You have to learn how much pressure it takes to flatten out the glide, and then how much motion you need to keep it flying. Talk to one of the local instructors/swoopers/S+TA's and have them talk you through it. Better yet, have them watch you land and give you feedback.

If you feel you cannot land this canopy without better information, do NOT jump the canopy. Go back to your previous canopy (hopefully larger) and try the same sort of thing, again with someone watching you. Learn on that one, then apply the lessons to the new one.

[tdog 0]

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How do you flare your canopy now?

What canopy were you flying before you bought this one?

First stage is to your shoulders, when you lose your forward speed and start decending again you finish your flare. I didnt know this was specific to a canopy though.

It is very canopy/wing load specific. I own four different canopies. All four have completely different "sweet spots". Length of risers and arms will also change the sweet spot relative to your torso (shoulder height, ear height, etc).

To the original poster - maybe go to skydiveradio.com and download the Brian Germain radio shows. Understanding how speed equals energy, and how flaring causes your momentum to pendulum you forward changing angle of attack, and increasing angle of attack creates lift with the energy from speed - will give you an idea of why a two stage flare works. It is a very interesting physics equation where speed can be turned into lift, and with lift you reduce speed, giving you the ideal landing situation (no forward and no downward speed right as your feet touch down).

[denete 2]

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To the original poster - maybe go to skydiveradio.com and download the Brian Germain radio shows. Understanding how speed equals energy, and how flaring causes your momentum to pendulum you forward changing angle of attack, and increasing angle of attack creates lift with the energy from speed - will give you an idea of why a two stage flare works. It is a very interesting physics equation where speed can be turned into lift, and with lift you reduce speed, giving you the ideal landing situation (no forward and no downward speed right as your feet touch down).

One thing that Brian doesn't touch on (to the best of my memory on the SDR episodes as well as in the Parachute and Its Pilot) is the speed at which the toggles are pulled down for the primary stage of the flare. He may talk about this in his canopy piloting courses, however. It is important to note that the distance you pull your toggles is as important as how fast you pull them (depending upon the canopy in question).

- David

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[tdog 0]

With 15 jumps in your profile, you are discussing stuff I know people with 150 jumps can't explain...

So, here is my challenge to you. Why does the speed in which you get to the sweet spot matter? I know the answer... But I will give you the opportunity to tell...

[AFFI 0]

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With 15 jumps in your profile, you are discussing stuff I know people with 1500 jumps can't explain...

Tdog, are you not used to such banter by now?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[denete 2]

Talk to your instructor.

[AFFI 0]

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Why does the speed in which you get to the sweet spot matter? I know the answer... But I will give you the opportunity to tell...

Okay Tk9, I am not certain I know the answer, certainly would like to add to my base of knowledge, could you enlighten me please?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[woodpecker 0]

It is very canopy/wing load specific. I own four different canopies. All four have completely different "sweet spots". Length of risers and arms will also change the sweet spot relative to your torso (shoulder height, ear height, etc).

Let me rephrase: I didnt know that doing a 2 stage flare compared to a 3 stage or other was canopy specific and maybe added in the "sweet spot" portion. It was late and I just finished a 12 hour midterm.

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[DougH 270]

Thats funny, because I could find go find the quote and page number out of his book if I wasn't so late for work.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[AFFI 0]

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Thats funny, because I could find go find the quote and page number out of his book if I wasn't so late for work.

During your lunch break?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[popsjumper 2]

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Thats funny, because I could find go find the quote and page number out of his book if I wasn't so late for work.

That's even funnier...maybe your memory for this little tidbit of info is better than most. I did notice that you didn't know the answer...you will have to look it up...just like most of us.



Side note to all:
Here we go with jump numbers again. How arrogant. You do realize, I hope, that jump numbers do not always directly relate to knowledge, eh? I'll show you one knowledgable low jump number guy and let you show me 50 high jump number idiots...you can do that with your eyes closed and one hand tied behind your back.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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So, here is my challenge to you. Why does the speed in which you get to the sweet spot matter? I know the answer...

Here's my challenge to YOU. From 10 ft above ground level on landing,
1. Flare at the rate of 1 in/hr.
2. Flare at the rate of 30 in/sec.

Come back and report your results.
Oh...you way want to do #2 first, #1 second.




Now Tdog, I know you have better sense than to do that. ALL you youngsters out there...I'm only JOKING.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Without reading the books and taking the canopy courses, you won't get better advice than what BillVon posted.

I would only add that getting video of your landings for critique and learning purposes is a good thing.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[FrEaK_aCcIdEnT 0]

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1. Flare at the rate of 1 in/hr.

Hold my beer and watch this!

Sorry for the interuption, couldn't resist!

ExPeCt ThE uNeXpEcTeD!
DoNt MiNd ThE tYpOs, Im LaZy On CoRrEcTiOnS!

[chuckakers 370]

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I have just purchased a new main and am being advised to use the 2 stage flare. Can someone explain to me what this is, and how i go about doing it??

see an instructor at your DZ.

Chuck

[tdog 0]

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Talk to your instructor.

Dude, I give you a compliment, I was impressed with your knowledge - and invite you to teach us all and so we all could learn more... But you reply with my most hated statement on the internet. We have to assume that everyone on here, from one to 1,000,000 jumps, will not attempt something they fully don't understand without learning fully about it. It is not my job to hide information from someone by saying "talk to your instructor" because there is no magical time when we stop learning from everyone else.

I don't mind prefacing a comment with, "really you should seek some local guidance too, and discuss any changes with your instructors and peers at the DZ." Of course - some things need to be not answered online (specific AFF dive flow and procedures that are DZ specific, would be a clear example), but generic canopy control concepts are free game as far as I am concerned, especially when the original poster has a B licence and 97 jumps in their profile.

I am not a canopy expert, so I am going to opt to quote others that I respect.

Brian G. I am going to quote some text from your book, "The Parachute and its Pilot". If there are copyright issues or you wish for me not to quote, please contact me or a moderator to have this removed or edited.

Page 56

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When all the signs are there, you must apply the brakes in order to level off and fly parallel to the earth. Flaring quickly enough to fully level off is essential, but do not hammer the toggles down so hard that you gain altitude.

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The speed, altitude and amount of toggle input is necessary to achieve level flight will vary, based on many variables. Many jumpers refer to a "sweet spot", a specific location in the toggle stroke that will achieve level flight. The truth is, this sweet spot does not really exist, not as a finite location anyway. The same parachute with the same wing loading will level off differently given different magnitudes of airspeed.

I went thru a few Flight One canopy courses taught by Jason T. - once as a paid student - another time to refresh my memory since I had the opportunity to sit in.

We evaluated a lot of our videos of landings - and it was easy to see how a well timed flare was important, and part of that timing was when the initial stage started and ended.

Starting too high and "easing into it" - the energy in the system is not efficiently used and you never get a crisp plane out where the canopy flies parallel to the ground. Clearly on video, you could see that a nice crisp entry to "stage one" caused the skydiver's suspended weight to move forward under the canopy, to under the A lines, due to their momentum keeping them moving while their canopy slows down. This change in angle of attack/pitch of the canopy increases lift and causes the nice plane out across the ground.

Also - easing into the initial flare spot - kills the airspeed prematurely before you really need it, landing...

[redlegphi 0]

So, just to make sure I understand this correctly, the quick flare to the "sweet spot" allows you to use your body to shift the flight of the canopy so it's parallel to the ground while still conserving most of your forward speed, allowing you to have a nice, long ride out to your final landing flare?
It's cool the kind of stuff you can learn on here sometimes.

[tdog 0]

Again, trying to quote someone with more knowledge than I... Page 48 of Brian's book.

This is discussed in the turbulence section - pitch maintenance. But the words are clearer than I could use.

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Applying the brakes of a ram-air canopy has the ability to increase the pitch angle, and therefore the angle of attack. When the brakes are applied sharply, the increased drag of the airfoil causes it to retreat behind us. If the application of the brakes is sharp enough, it is only necessary to move your toggles down a few inches to bring the wing to a higher angle of attack.

I believe this applies to landing. A quicker sharper movement to the "first stage" will cause a more dynamic "retreat" of the canopy, thus allowing a quicker and stronger transition to a higher angle of attack.

Here is a definition of angle of attack from wikipedia:

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The amount of lift generated by a wing is directly related to the angle of attack, with greater angles generating more lift (and more drag). This remains true up to the stall point, where lift starts to decrease again because of flow separation.

So if speed = energy, and increasing angle of attack = lift, and energy can be converted to lift -

does it not make sense that we should convert our canopy's pitch from a low to high angle of attack quickly without dissipating speed, so we can have the energy to convert to lift?

Basically, a slow transition to the "plane out phase" kills speed and energy in the system before it is needed. A faster transition to the plane out keeps the speed that will turn to lift.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Thats funny, because I could find go find the quote and page number out of his book if I wasn't so late for work.

That's even funnier...maybe your memory for this little tidbit of info is better than most. I did notice that you didn't know the answer...you will have to look it up...just like most of us.


Would you at least agree that if his profile is correct he should not be giving advice on landing on the internet?


Side note to all:
Here we go with jump numbers again. How arrogant. You do realize, I hope, that jump numbers do not always directly relate to knowledge, eh? I'll show you one knowledgable low jump number guy and let you show me 50 high jump number idiots...you can do that with your eyes closed and one hand tied behind your back.