flipper 0 #26 December 4, 2007 ...........visited several DZs in the UK and been treated like a piece of sh1t at most ......... Yeah .... thats a common expierence ... there are of course exceptions to this ... but on the whole you said it how it is .... I reckon its this type of fucked attitude that is gonna fuck jumpin in the UK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #27 December 4, 2007 Quote Quote If base can not be a part of the sport.. then how can wind tunnel. no rig, no aad's, low jumps etc.. this a double standard. make up there minds.. It's alot harder to do illegal tunnel flying then illegal BASE. You either have to break into the tunnel when it's closed or turn a jet engine on its nose and try to stay above it. Sounds like fun... i'm up for breaking into airkix, for a night jump of course unless we do a crimbo day jump!!!! It'll keep the cost of tunnel time down too.. everyones a winner! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #28 December 4, 2007 Quote ...........visited several DZs in the UK and been treated like a piece of sh1t at most ......... Yeah .... thats a common expierence ... there are of course exceptions to this ... but on the whole you said it how it is .... I reckon its this type of fucked attitude that is gonna fuck jumpin in the UK agreed It is bollocks... i guess this may be where my original rant started from... but all the sky gods latched onto the tunnel bit from the original thread... the sport in the uk is being killed off slowly by shite attitude's and people who are more intrested in there self than the sport, how many dropzones need to close in the uk b4 people give a toss? maybe they don't deserve to be open if there treating people badly! I guess its fine, they can all close... as long the wind tunnels stay open.. blah blah blah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
psipike02 0 #29 December 4, 2007 I personally think that you're making an over-generalization about the sport and the social aspect and that just because people fly in tunnels means that they aren't social. Maybe i'm incorrect in what you're trying to say and don't seem to understand.... This is my opinion and my reply to you, take it however you want. I went through AFF when there wasn't a tunnel here in Colorado. I still went and flew in the Vegas tunnel to improve my skills. The idea of having a tunnel for training is awesome. Had I not gone to Vegas, I would've spent EVEN MORE money re-doing levels to try to diagnose a problem for 45 sec. - 1 minute of every jump. I'm in skydiving because I like it, I like the challenge of the sport, and most importantly the friends that I've made, IN SKYDIVING AND THE TUNNEL. Everyone has their own reasons as previously said. Am I looking to compete at some point in the future, quite possibly. So why not supplement that and increase my skills by going to fly in something that simulates freefall and that will make me that much sharper and more precise in my movements? That's like criticizing a commercial airline pilot in training for using the flight simulator instead of just going out and flying the real thing in different situations. If you actually gave it a chance, you'd see that the same friends you can make at the DZ, you can make at the tunnel as well. I have MANY friends who jump and work at the tunnel with me, we do both. So I disagree with you when you say this: Quotebut i think your all killing the social side of the sport and the uptake will continue to drop And for myself, I personally have never and probably won't jump during the winter. I already don't like the cold as it is (even though I've lived in the north all my life). So having a wind tunnel around so I can still socialize and fly and keep my skills up to par is definitely better than sitting on my ass doing nothing and not seeing my friends for 6 months. A windtunnel (at least ours and few others that I know) is nothing more than a DZ indoors. Except no plane and no rigs. Give it a chance at least and then if you don't like it, criticize it all you want.Puttin' some stank on it. ----Hellfish #707---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adriandavies 0 #30 December 4, 2007 I can't really see where you are coming from apart from a skydive = good and windtunnels = bad point of view. DZ's come DZ's go. We've had about 20 in the UK for the past 10 years or so and at the same time we've had about 5000 BPA members p.a. Since the tunnels opened there hasn't been any overall change in numbers of DZ's or BPA members. Both tunnels advertise in the mag and both tunnels get coverage on a regular basis so I wouldn't say that either has received any bias. They are commercial organisations just like every DZ and every TI or AFFI and in the same way they also promote skydiving. They are also a tool to improve skill levels from basic to world champion level. Sure they may lack the ambience of a DZ but Bodyflight has tried to create a laid back DZ like atmosphere, but they are not DZ's and don't pretend to be either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jewels 0 #31 December 4, 2007 QuoteQuote i guess this may be where my original rant started from... but all the sky gods latched onto the tunnel bit from the original thread... the sport in the uk is being killed off slowly by shite attitude's and people who are more intrested in there self than the sport, how many dropzones need to close in the uk b4 people give a toss? maybe they don't deserve to be open if there treating people badly! [\reply] So, what exactly is the connection between poor attitudes and self-absorption and wind tunnels? Perhaps I am missing the point of your message because somehow you do seem to be saying that the wind tunnels are at fault. Oh, and as for the social aspect, I will remind you again that I have 4 jumps but in the last year-and-a-half, the vast majority of my friends have become skydivers and tunnel rats. They are the people I spent the holidays with. These are the people at the dz, too. I know a number of skydivers that I've never seen anywhere near the tunnel. Nobody's defecting from the dz so they can go hang out with me. If anything, it's the other way around. Sorry; I guess I need clarification as to the connection. I'm not saying there aren't problems. I just don't understand why it's the wind tunnels' fault.TPM Sister #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #32 December 4, 2007 I just don't understand why it's the wind tunnels' fault. Quote Yeah...wind tunnels don't suck. They BLOW! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jewels 0 #33 December 4, 2007 Yes, and I like it! TPM Sister #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crashtested 0 #34 December 4, 2007 So, what exactly is the connection between poor attitudes and self-absorption and wind tunnels? Perhaps I am missing the point of your message because somehow you do seem to be saying that the wind tunnels are at fault. --------------------------------------------------------- My original rant.. (Based on experiances in the uk, which is very different to america where you have a thriving sport)(which has now targeted every one and everything in some ways) was trying to draw on peoples shitty attitude at DZ's in the UK to newbies. Be it tamdems or new students raps , aff etc. Maybe this is why numbers have dropped in the uk, and people will go to a tunnel rather than a DZ. I was trying to make the point that the bpa's awnser to get people involved in the sport decided to link up with airkixa wind tunnel. The BPA should focus on getting people to DZ's not to tunnels, as that is where the sport takes place, and where the knowledge pools are at.. CCI's, Swoopers, Fun jumpers. etc. The BPA in general need to get into gear and get people seeing this sport, trying it out for real and keeping them in it. In turn this means More coaching, More boogies, More events, More Demo's. I don't know a lot about this sport, but i do know that if you don't promote your buisness or self then you fade away. Look at the main website in the uk for the sport and it might make more sense. I don't have an issue with wind tunnels in general. but i do have an issue with the BPA encouraging First timers to go there rather than a DZ. And i do have an issue with first timers being treated badley when they go to DZ's. the places are intimidating enough when your going to jump out of a plane without being treated like a peice of crap. (not all uk DZ's) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jewels 0 #35 December 4, 2007 That's helpful. I didn't make that connection in your original post.TPM Sister #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crashtested 0 #36 December 4, 2007 a pleasure Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redlegphi 0 #37 December 4, 2007 Well, it seems to me that if first-timers and other assorted newbies are being treated like shit at DZ and are being treated well at wind tunnels, then the DZ is the last place you'd want to send a newbie. If they hit a wind tunnel, meet some nice people, and get some experience for what they should be expecting/doing/learning in actual freefall, maybe they'll get hooked on the sport before some asshat on a DZ completely turns them off to the entire sport of skydiving. Maybe they'll even get enough experience in the tunnel that they'd get a little respect (or at least a little less harrassment) from the DZ regs. This is all a roundabout way of saying that your real issue isn't tunnels or the BPA (at least not entirely). Your real issue seems to be the people at the DZ. It's kind of hard for me to believe how bad things apparently are in the UK, given my limited experiences at DZs in the US. What do you think are the origins/causes of this anti-social behavior at UK DZs and do you have any ideas on how to make these DZs a more welcoming and less cliquey place to be? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crashtested 0 #38 December 4, 2007 Quote What do you think are the origins/causes of this anti-social behavior at UK DZs and do you have any ideas on how to make these DZs a more welcoming and less cliquey place to be? Well psycho analized... you may be right. I have no idea how to make tandem instructors more social, i understand that after the tandem leaves they will likely not see them agin.. but its still a pretty special experiance jumping out of a plane. and putting your life into someone eles hands. The whole experiance is to rushy for me.. there is no personal touch. For the other students you have to really force your way in... hang around for weeks on end b4 someone talks to you.. Some people are lucky and have connections with people there(for me motorbikes) but you can go to some dropzones and see new aff students left in the cold for hours on end. Or treated with contempt. You can't change someone with a bad attitude. People with higher jump numbers or skills should take there heads out of there arses and make an effort with these guys, Easy ideas Make the people on courses stay l8er and include a couple of drinks in the price. make the tamdem instuctors stick around at the end of the day, pay them whatever. organise partys and invite pople comming on tandems the next day to join in that night. Have screens up in rec rooms where the spectators can see films of people jumping that day. Smile!!! Really it seems that apart from 3 threads most people don't agree, the whole point of this was to draw peoples attention to there behavior from time to time... hopefully a few of them will look at how they act at dz's and change it a bit.... its up to everyone to make this a progressive sport.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Adriandavies 0 #39 December 4, 2007 Quote I was trying to make the point that the bpa's awnser to get people involved in the sport decided to link up with airkixa wind tunnel. The BPA should focus on getting people to DZ's not to tunnels, as that is where the sport takes place, and where the knowledge pools are at.. CCI's, Swoopers, Fun jumpers. etc. The BPA in general need to get into gear and get people seeing this sport, trying it out for real and keeping them in it. In turn this means More coaching, More boogies, More events, More Demo's. I don't know a lot about this sport, but i do know that if you don't promote your buisness or self then you fade away. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it it is not the BPA's job to promote or market skydiving in the UK. It oversees the sport but leaves getting punters into the air up to each individual DZ. Some would argue that if the BPA did have responsibility then skydiving would actually cease to be here. As it is it neither has the funds or the expertise to grow the sport in the way you seem to suggest. As for the Airkix fund it was set up to try to replace the funds being lost when sports council funding stops in the next couple of years, but judging from the initial slow take up you have nothing to worry about regarding Airkix diverting people into the tunnel rather than to DZ's. However if it ever works like Simon Ward envisaged, it would be a great tool to promote skydiving. His ideal is that DZ's would promote it then take bus loads of people to the tunnel with the whuffos being so enthusiastic after their two minutes they would immediately want to sign up for a tandem, RAPS or AFF. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crashtested 0 #40 December 4, 2007 Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it it is not the BPA's job to promote or market skydiving in the UK. It oversees the sport but leaves getting punters into the air up to each individual DZ. Some would argue that if the BPA did have responsibility then skydiving would actually cease to be here. As it is it neither has the funds or the expertise to grow the sport in the way you seem to suggest. --------------------------------------------------------- Then i take it the BPA is there for safety reasons only?? Well that does put a twist on things... How misinformed was I! That shocks the crap out of me. I'm amazed the sport in the uk exsists at all in some ways. This really explains away a lot of my annoyance with the bpa and i can kind of see why they have attached themselves to airkix.. I still don't agree with it at all but it makes a little more sense. I don't understand then, why dz's are not doing more themselves to promote the sport.. Every other sporting industry does in some way or another.. Surf, board, or windsurf etc etc.. big open events in tourist area's.. and to the like. It does not surprise me why jump numbers are declining now. i guess the next question is how to address this.. in my previous rants making the DZ's more friendly would be a big start. but more a lot more needs to be done. It would help everyone at the end of the day. more lifts. more atmosphere. more lessons learnt. more jobs within the sport.. maybe some constructive ideas would help? How does the this work in the usa? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #41 December 4, 2007 QuoteI have no idea how to make tandem instructors more social, You make it part of the job description, and you stop using TI's who won't do it. Most sports take this approach with guides and for that matter, most TI's do it without being ordered to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crashtested 0 #42 December 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteI have no idea how to make tandem instructors more social, You make it part of the job description, and you stop using TI's who won't do it. Most sports take this approach with guides and for that matter, most TI's do it without being ordered to. Come to the uk... if after coming to 4 DZ's you still think the TI's have that approach i will pay for your ticket home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Joellercoaster 6 #43 December 5, 2007 You say a lot of things that I, a fellow BPA member with no particular axe to grind, just don't see. And a few more things I think are just not true: - Wind tunnels don't take money away from small dropzones - small dropzones live and die by tandems, and those people don't use tunnels instead of taking a tandem. - The BPA isn't in bed with one tunnel over the other: The Airkix Fund (if that's what youre talking about, you don't say) is a promotion, and (as far as I know) wasn't initiated by the BPA. I choose to fly at Bedford because I like their tunnel and manifest more, but whatever. Actually, here's an exercise: go to a small, "struggling" DZ of a weekend, and try and jump. Go on. Try, see how many loads you can get on with your friends, between the people who actually pay for it: AFF students and tandems. Which brings me to - Tandems being treated as a cash cow is purely a function of the DZOs. The BPA bends over backwards to get them treated as students, which is why you have to train as an Instructor to get your tandem rating here. Some of them actually instruct, but it's up to the individual. As for skydiving being "about X" or "about Y", the above point about Oysters and Snails is well made. What's it to you if I like to compete? Or if I just want to get as good as possible and not compete? I can spend £20/min of freefall at the DZ, or £10/min in the tunnel, but the application still comes in the sky. I love the tunnel, and I'd be willing to bet I spent as many or more weekends at more DZs this year than you did, because I spent most of 'em there. You don't like what I like (sounds like you don't like flat flying either *shrug* weirdo ), which is fine, but it ain't killing skydiving. Actually the assertion that skydiving is dying at all strikes me as weird. Care to back it up? Small decreases in the number of active skydivers over several years don't count. Oh wait, I just realised: I think IHBT. -- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brettski74 0 #44 December 5, 2007 QuoteOh wait, I just realised: I think IHBT. I'm surprised it took this many posts to come to that realization. [Crazy] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crashtested 0 #45 December 5, 2007 Quote You say a lot of things that I, a fellow BPA member with no particular axe to grind, just don't see. And a few more things I think are just not true: - Wind tunnels don't take money away from small dropzones - --------------------------------------------------------- I think they do.. if people spend £1000 a year training for comps in a wind tunnel than that £1000 they would have spent at the dz. be it in the air at the cafe where ever!!!! simple maths - Or complicated for some or one of us- The BPA isn't in bed with one tunnel over the other: The Airkix Fund (if that's what youre talking about, you don't say) is a promotion, and (as far as I know) wasn't initiated by the BPA. ---------------------------------------------------------- First thing you see on the bpa webpage is airkix big letters. then it says the bpa and airkix have joined forces.. on the dark side I choose to fly at Bedford because I like their tunnel and manifest more, but whatever. Actually, here's an exercise: go to a small, "struggling" DZ of a weekend, and try and jump. Go on. Try, see how many loads you can get on with your friends, between the people who actually pay for it: AFF students and tandems. Which brings me to ---------------------------------------------------------- Or i could go to a large DZ which does not struggle eg NLPC and try and get on a lift inbetween tandems?? Or i could surport a small DZ, and not go to tunnels. take 10 buddys and we could jump all day!!! - Tandems being treated as a cash cow is purely a function of the DZOs. ----------------------------------------------------------- Shit excuse for bad service.. it buys no time with me. look up "function of a service provider" The BPA bends over backwards to get them treated as students, which is why you have to train as an Instructor to get your tandem rating here. Some of them actually instruct, but it's up to the individual. As for skydiving being "about X" or "about Y", the above point about Oysters and Snails is well made. What's it to you if I like to compete? ----------------------------------------------------------- "Compete away, i think comps are healthy and positive for the sport!! Or if I just want to get as good as possible and not compete? I can spend £20/min of freefall at the DZ, or £10/min in the tunnel, but the application still comes in the sky. I love the tunnel, and I'd be willing to bet I spent as many or more weekends at more DZs this year than you did, because I spent most of 'em there. --------------------------------------------------------- pfffff yeah but my dads bigger than yours.. good argument You don't like what I like (sounds like you don't like flat flying either *shrug* weirdo ), which is fine, but it ain't killing skydiving. -------------------------------------------------------- I have around 60 jumps, what you think i'm free flying or flat flying???? Actually the assertion that skydiving is dying at all strikes me as weird. Care to back it up? Small decreases in the number of active skydivers over several years don't count. ------------------------------------------------------- contirdiction, "small decreases in the number of active skydivers " so it is decreasing!! Oh wait, I just realised: I think IHBT. ------------------------------------------------------- I Have Been Trolled or Institute of Himalayan Bio-resource Technology please explain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skytash 0 #46 December 5, 2007 Just adding my bit, and I think I'm agreeing with other in not being quite sure what the OP is getting at. Quote - Wind tunnels don't take money away from small dropzones - --------------------------------------------------------- I think they do.. if people spend £1000 a year training for comps in a wind tunnel than that £1000 they would have spent at the dz. be it in the air at the cafe where ever!!!! simple maths - Or complicated for some or one of us*********** Have you asked any of the DZOs of the smaller DZs whether they think the tunnels take away money? If people are spending £1,000 per year training for competitions in tunnels, they probably want to have fast turnaround in their jump training camps. I've never been in a competitive 4-way team, I suspect they used to spend that amount on tunnel time before airkix or Bodyflight Bedford, they just also spend money with American Airlines or BA and did it in Orlando, then did their jumping at Deland - still not spending money at Chatteris, Lewknor or Dunkeswell (some of the smaller DZs in the South) - The BPA isn't in bed with one tunnel over the other: The Airkix Fund (if that's what youre talking about, you don't say) is a promotion, and (as far as I know) wasn't initiated by the BPA. ---------------------------------------------------------- First thing you see on the bpa webpage is airkix big letters. then it says the bpa and airkix have joined forces.. on the dark side ************ I'm sure that if you paid for advertising space, you too could be the first thing on the BPA website [snip] ---------------------------------------------------------- Or i could go to a large DZ which does not struggle eg NLPC and try and get on a lift inbetween tandems?? Or i could surport a small DZ, and not go to tunnels. take 10 buddys and we could jump all day!!! ********* and on a good day for the DZ making money from tandems, how many lifts are there between tandems? I don't honestly know as I haven't been to a small UK DZ in a long time. I do know that at the larger ones, the 4-way teams on their training days try to get 6 jumps per day in. Would that be possible at a smaller DZ? I'm asking as I don't know and suspect that teams don't know either and don't want to take the risk trying out. Interestingly last year, most of the top teams training at DZs did it at Weston (south) or Hib (north) as the nationals were out of the Dorniers, and they wanted the train out a Dornier. Choosing to train from the type of plane being used in a competition will take people to particular DZs. If NLPC had a Dornier, teams would most likely train there - or they could put a bid in to host nationals on their planes, again people would be more likely to train there. - Tandems being treated as a cash cow is purely a function of the DZOs. ----------------------------------------------------------- Shit excuse for bad service.. it buys no time with me. look up "function of a service provider" The BPA bends over backwards to get them treated as students, which is why you have to train as an Instructor to get your tandem rating here. Some of them actually instruct, but it's up to the individual. *********** and the service was bad before the tunnels - do a search in the archives on bad service at UK DZs, it's a very old problem at least 10 years! The only differene the tunnels are making is showing up the DZs for their poor service, who knows it may wake the DZs up to improving their service to first timers! [snip] And - if you want to do something about it, the only thing stopping you standing for council, as that the time for this year's nominations are up. You can stand next year and please use your democratic right to vote for those people you feel represent you most on the BPA council. Ranting here won't change a thing, supporting your preferred council member(s) and subsequently standing for countil will give you a chance to change things! tashDon't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jewels 0 #47 December 5, 2007 I have around 60 jumps, what you think i'm free flying or flat flying???? I'm not sure that I'm interpreting your post correctly, but it sounds as though you are implying that with only 60 jumps, you'd obviously be belly flying. I'll just take this opportunity to point out that if you had combined your experience with some tunnel time, you could be free flying by now.TPM Sister #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crashtested 0 #48 December 6, 2007 And - if you want to do something about it, the only thing stopping you standing for council, as that the time for this year's nominations are up. You can stand next year and please use your democratic right to vote for those people you feel represent you most on the BPA council. Ranting here won't change a thing, supporting your preferred council member(s) and subsequently standing for countil will give you a chance to change things! tash Tash i wish i had the experiance and the time to even look at being on the council, unfortuntly i run booze emphoriums in london which means hardly enough time to even jump. (1 - 2 days a week max) ( and i tend to rant on about things) And your right ranting won't help... but it was meant only for general disscussion purpose. only 3 people agreed about the shite attitude at some DZ's. a lot more, like yourself, seemed to be ok with the fact that that attitude prevails.(rather than be pissed off about it) And I still stand by the opinion that bad attitude's and wind tunnels(be it for there great customer service) will reduce active jumpers in the uk further more.... but i really hope i'm mistaken! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #32 December 4, 2007 I just don't understand why it's the wind tunnels' fault. Quote Yeah...wind tunnels don't suck. They BLOW! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jewels 0 #33 December 4, 2007 Yes, and I like it! TPM Sister #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #34 December 4, 2007 So, what exactly is the connection between poor attitudes and self-absorption and wind tunnels? Perhaps I am missing the point of your message because somehow you do seem to be saying that the wind tunnels are at fault. --------------------------------------------------------- My original rant.. (Based on experiances in the uk, which is very different to america where you have a thriving sport)(which has now targeted every one and everything in some ways) was trying to draw on peoples shitty attitude at DZ's in the UK to newbies. Be it tamdems or new students raps , aff etc. Maybe this is why numbers have dropped in the uk, and people will go to a tunnel rather than a DZ. I was trying to make the point that the bpa's awnser to get people involved in the sport decided to link up with airkixa wind tunnel. The BPA should focus on getting people to DZ's not to tunnels, as that is where the sport takes place, and where the knowledge pools are at.. CCI's, Swoopers, Fun jumpers. etc. The BPA in general need to get into gear and get people seeing this sport, trying it out for real and keeping them in it. In turn this means More coaching, More boogies, More events, More Demo's. I don't know a lot about this sport, but i do know that if you don't promote your buisness or self then you fade away. Look at the main website in the uk for the sport and it might make more sense. I don't have an issue with wind tunnels in general. but i do have an issue with the BPA encouraging First timers to go there rather than a DZ. And i do have an issue with first timers being treated badley when they go to DZ's. the places are intimidating enough when your going to jump out of a plane without being treated like a peice of crap. (not all uk DZ's) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jewels 0 #35 December 4, 2007 That's helpful. I didn't make that connection in your original post.TPM Sister #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #36 December 4, 2007 a pleasure Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #37 December 4, 2007 Well, it seems to me that if first-timers and other assorted newbies are being treated like shit at DZ and are being treated well at wind tunnels, then the DZ is the last place you'd want to send a newbie. If they hit a wind tunnel, meet some nice people, and get some experience for what they should be expecting/doing/learning in actual freefall, maybe they'll get hooked on the sport before some asshat on a DZ completely turns them off to the entire sport of skydiving. Maybe they'll even get enough experience in the tunnel that they'd get a little respect (or at least a little less harrassment) from the DZ regs. This is all a roundabout way of saying that your real issue isn't tunnels or the BPA (at least not entirely). Your real issue seems to be the people at the DZ. It's kind of hard for me to believe how bad things apparently are in the UK, given my limited experiences at DZs in the US. What do you think are the origins/causes of this anti-social behavior at UK DZs and do you have any ideas on how to make these DZs a more welcoming and less cliquey place to be? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #38 December 4, 2007 Quote What do you think are the origins/causes of this anti-social behavior at UK DZs and do you have any ideas on how to make these DZs a more welcoming and less cliquey place to be? Well psycho analized... you may be right. I have no idea how to make tandem instructors more social, i understand that after the tandem leaves they will likely not see them agin.. but its still a pretty special experiance jumping out of a plane. and putting your life into someone eles hands. The whole experiance is to rushy for me.. there is no personal touch. For the other students you have to really force your way in... hang around for weeks on end b4 someone talks to you.. Some people are lucky and have connections with people there(for me motorbikes) but you can go to some dropzones and see new aff students left in the cold for hours on end. Or treated with contempt. You can't change someone with a bad attitude. People with higher jump numbers or skills should take there heads out of there arses and make an effort with these guys, Easy ideas Make the people on courses stay l8er and include a couple of drinks in the price. make the tamdem instuctors stick around at the end of the day, pay them whatever. organise partys and invite pople comming on tandems the next day to join in that night. Have screens up in rec rooms where the spectators can see films of people jumping that day. Smile!!! Really it seems that apart from 3 threads most people don't agree, the whole point of this was to draw peoples attention to there behavior from time to time... hopefully a few of them will look at how they act at dz's and change it a bit.... its up to everyone to make this a progressive sport.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adriandavies 0 #39 December 4, 2007 Quote I was trying to make the point that the bpa's awnser to get people involved in the sport decided to link up with airkixa wind tunnel. The BPA should focus on getting people to DZ's not to tunnels, as that is where the sport takes place, and where the knowledge pools are at.. CCI's, Swoopers, Fun jumpers. etc. The BPA in general need to get into gear and get people seeing this sport, trying it out for real and keeping them in it. In turn this means More coaching, More boogies, More events, More Demo's. I don't know a lot about this sport, but i do know that if you don't promote your buisness or self then you fade away. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it it is not the BPA's job to promote or market skydiving in the UK. It oversees the sport but leaves getting punters into the air up to each individual DZ. Some would argue that if the BPA did have responsibility then skydiving would actually cease to be here. As it is it neither has the funds or the expertise to grow the sport in the way you seem to suggest. As for the Airkix fund it was set up to try to replace the funds being lost when sports council funding stops in the next couple of years, but judging from the initial slow take up you have nothing to worry about regarding Airkix diverting people into the tunnel rather than to DZ's. However if it ever works like Simon Ward envisaged, it would be a great tool to promote skydiving. His ideal is that DZ's would promote it then take bus loads of people to the tunnel with the whuffos being so enthusiastic after their two minutes they would immediately want to sign up for a tandem, RAPS or AFF. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #40 December 4, 2007 Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it it is not the BPA's job to promote or market skydiving in the UK. It oversees the sport but leaves getting punters into the air up to each individual DZ. Some would argue that if the BPA did have responsibility then skydiving would actually cease to be here. As it is it neither has the funds or the expertise to grow the sport in the way you seem to suggest. --------------------------------------------------------- Then i take it the BPA is there for safety reasons only?? Well that does put a twist on things... How misinformed was I! That shocks the crap out of me. I'm amazed the sport in the uk exsists at all in some ways. This really explains away a lot of my annoyance with the bpa and i can kind of see why they have attached themselves to airkix.. I still don't agree with it at all but it makes a little more sense. I don't understand then, why dz's are not doing more themselves to promote the sport.. Every other sporting industry does in some way or another.. Surf, board, or windsurf etc etc.. big open events in tourist area's.. and to the like. It does not surprise me why jump numbers are declining now. i guess the next question is how to address this.. in my previous rants making the DZ's more friendly would be a big start. but more a lot more needs to be done. It would help everyone at the end of the day. more lifts. more atmosphere. more lessons learnt. more jobs within the sport.. maybe some constructive ideas would help? How does the this work in the usa? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #41 December 4, 2007 QuoteI have no idea how to make tandem instructors more social, You make it part of the job description, and you stop using TI's who won't do it. Most sports take this approach with guides and for that matter, most TI's do it without being ordered to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #42 December 5, 2007 QuoteQuoteI have no idea how to make tandem instructors more social, You make it part of the job description, and you stop using TI's who won't do it. Most sports take this approach with guides and for that matter, most TI's do it without being ordered to. Come to the uk... if after coming to 4 DZ's you still think the TI's have that approach i will pay for your ticket home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #43 December 5, 2007 You say a lot of things that I, a fellow BPA member with no particular axe to grind, just don't see. And a few more things I think are just not true: - Wind tunnels don't take money away from small dropzones - small dropzones live and die by tandems, and those people don't use tunnels instead of taking a tandem. - The BPA isn't in bed with one tunnel over the other: The Airkix Fund (if that's what youre talking about, you don't say) is a promotion, and (as far as I know) wasn't initiated by the BPA. I choose to fly at Bedford because I like their tunnel and manifest more, but whatever. Actually, here's an exercise: go to a small, "struggling" DZ of a weekend, and try and jump. Go on. Try, see how many loads you can get on with your friends, between the people who actually pay for it: AFF students and tandems. Which brings me to - Tandems being treated as a cash cow is purely a function of the DZOs. The BPA bends over backwards to get them treated as students, which is why you have to train as an Instructor to get your tandem rating here. Some of them actually instruct, but it's up to the individual. As for skydiving being "about X" or "about Y", the above point about Oysters and Snails is well made. What's it to you if I like to compete? Or if I just want to get as good as possible and not compete? I can spend £20/min of freefall at the DZ, or £10/min in the tunnel, but the application still comes in the sky. I love the tunnel, and I'd be willing to bet I spent as many or more weekends at more DZs this year than you did, because I spent most of 'em there. You don't like what I like (sounds like you don't like flat flying either *shrug* weirdo ), which is fine, but it ain't killing skydiving. Actually the assertion that skydiving is dying at all strikes me as weird. Care to back it up? Small decreases in the number of active skydivers over several years don't count. Oh wait, I just realised: I think IHBT. -- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #44 December 5, 2007 QuoteOh wait, I just realised: I think IHBT. I'm surprised it took this many posts to come to that realization. [Crazy] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #45 December 5, 2007 Quote You say a lot of things that I, a fellow BPA member with no particular axe to grind, just don't see. And a few more things I think are just not true: - Wind tunnels don't take money away from small dropzones - --------------------------------------------------------- I think they do.. if people spend £1000 a year training for comps in a wind tunnel than that £1000 they would have spent at the dz. be it in the air at the cafe where ever!!!! simple maths - Or complicated for some or one of us- The BPA isn't in bed with one tunnel over the other: The Airkix Fund (if that's what youre talking about, you don't say) is a promotion, and (as far as I know) wasn't initiated by the BPA. ---------------------------------------------------------- First thing you see on the bpa webpage is airkix big letters. then it says the bpa and airkix have joined forces.. on the dark side I choose to fly at Bedford because I like their tunnel and manifest more, but whatever. Actually, here's an exercise: go to a small, "struggling" DZ of a weekend, and try and jump. Go on. Try, see how many loads you can get on with your friends, between the people who actually pay for it: AFF students and tandems. Which brings me to ---------------------------------------------------------- Or i could go to a large DZ which does not struggle eg NLPC and try and get on a lift inbetween tandems?? Or i could surport a small DZ, and not go to tunnels. take 10 buddys and we could jump all day!!! - Tandems being treated as a cash cow is purely a function of the DZOs. ----------------------------------------------------------- Shit excuse for bad service.. it buys no time with me. look up "function of a service provider" The BPA bends over backwards to get them treated as students, which is why you have to train as an Instructor to get your tandem rating here. Some of them actually instruct, but it's up to the individual. As for skydiving being "about X" or "about Y", the above point about Oysters and Snails is well made. What's it to you if I like to compete? ----------------------------------------------------------- "Compete away, i think comps are healthy and positive for the sport!! Or if I just want to get as good as possible and not compete? I can spend £20/min of freefall at the DZ, or £10/min in the tunnel, but the application still comes in the sky. I love the tunnel, and I'd be willing to bet I spent as many or more weekends at more DZs this year than you did, because I spent most of 'em there. --------------------------------------------------------- pfffff yeah but my dads bigger than yours.. good argument You don't like what I like (sounds like you don't like flat flying either *shrug* weirdo ), which is fine, but it ain't killing skydiving. -------------------------------------------------------- I have around 60 jumps, what you think i'm free flying or flat flying???? Actually the assertion that skydiving is dying at all strikes me as weird. Care to back it up? Small decreases in the number of active skydivers over several years don't count. ------------------------------------------------------- contirdiction, "small decreases in the number of active skydivers " so it is decreasing!! Oh wait, I just realised: I think IHBT. ------------------------------------------------------- I Have Been Trolled or Institute of Himalayan Bio-resource Technology please explain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytash 0 #46 December 5, 2007 Just adding my bit, and I think I'm agreeing with other in not being quite sure what the OP is getting at. Quote - Wind tunnels don't take money away from small dropzones - --------------------------------------------------------- I think they do.. if people spend £1000 a year training for comps in a wind tunnel than that £1000 they would have spent at the dz. be it in the air at the cafe where ever!!!! simple maths - Or complicated for some or one of us*********** Have you asked any of the DZOs of the smaller DZs whether they think the tunnels take away money? If people are spending £1,000 per year training for competitions in tunnels, they probably want to have fast turnaround in their jump training camps. I've never been in a competitive 4-way team, I suspect they used to spend that amount on tunnel time before airkix or Bodyflight Bedford, they just also spend money with American Airlines or BA and did it in Orlando, then did their jumping at Deland - still not spending money at Chatteris, Lewknor or Dunkeswell (some of the smaller DZs in the South) - The BPA isn't in bed with one tunnel over the other: The Airkix Fund (if that's what youre talking about, you don't say) is a promotion, and (as far as I know) wasn't initiated by the BPA. ---------------------------------------------------------- First thing you see on the bpa webpage is airkix big letters. then it says the bpa and airkix have joined forces.. on the dark side ************ I'm sure that if you paid for advertising space, you too could be the first thing on the BPA website [snip] ---------------------------------------------------------- Or i could go to a large DZ which does not struggle eg NLPC and try and get on a lift inbetween tandems?? Or i could surport a small DZ, and not go to tunnels. take 10 buddys and we could jump all day!!! ********* and on a good day for the DZ making money from tandems, how many lifts are there between tandems? I don't honestly know as I haven't been to a small UK DZ in a long time. I do know that at the larger ones, the 4-way teams on their training days try to get 6 jumps per day in. Would that be possible at a smaller DZ? I'm asking as I don't know and suspect that teams don't know either and don't want to take the risk trying out. Interestingly last year, most of the top teams training at DZs did it at Weston (south) or Hib (north) as the nationals were out of the Dorniers, and they wanted the train out a Dornier. Choosing to train from the type of plane being used in a competition will take people to particular DZs. If NLPC had a Dornier, teams would most likely train there - or they could put a bid in to host nationals on their planes, again people would be more likely to train there. - Tandems being treated as a cash cow is purely a function of the DZOs. ----------------------------------------------------------- Shit excuse for bad service.. it buys no time with me. look up "function of a service provider" The BPA bends over backwards to get them treated as students, which is why you have to train as an Instructor to get your tandem rating here. Some of them actually instruct, but it's up to the individual. *********** and the service was bad before the tunnels - do a search in the archives on bad service at UK DZs, it's a very old problem at least 10 years! The only differene the tunnels are making is showing up the DZs for their poor service, who knows it may wake the DZs up to improving their service to first timers! [snip] And - if you want to do something about it, the only thing stopping you standing for council, as that the time for this year's nominations are up. You can stand next year and please use your democratic right to vote for those people you feel represent you most on the BPA council. Ranting here won't change a thing, supporting your preferred council member(s) and subsequently standing for countil will give you a chance to change things! tashDon't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jewels 0 #47 December 5, 2007 I have around 60 jumps, what you think i'm free flying or flat flying???? I'm not sure that I'm interpreting your post correctly, but it sounds as though you are implying that with only 60 jumps, you'd obviously be belly flying. I'll just take this opportunity to point out that if you had combined your experience with some tunnel time, you could be free flying by now.TPM Sister #102 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crashtested 0 #48 December 6, 2007 And - if you want to do something about it, the only thing stopping you standing for council, as that the time for this year's nominations are up. You can stand next year and please use your democratic right to vote for those people you feel represent you most on the BPA council. Ranting here won't change a thing, supporting your preferred council member(s) and subsequently standing for countil will give you a chance to change things! tash Tash i wish i had the experiance and the time to even look at being on the council, unfortuntly i run booze emphoriums in london which means hardly enough time to even jump. (1 - 2 days a week max) ( and i tend to rant on about things) And your right ranting won't help... but it was meant only for general disscussion purpose. only 3 people agreed about the shite attitude at some DZ's. a lot more, like yourself, seemed to be ok with the fact that that attitude prevails.(rather than be pissed off about it) And I still stand by the opinion that bad attitude's and wind tunnels(be it for there great customer service) will reduce active jumpers in the uk further more.... but i really hope i'm mistaken! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysteve 0 #49 December 6, 2007 Well sorry to say I do not agree with you in the slightest. If your profile is correct and you are loading a 190 at 1.56 then stay away from wind tunnels do loads of hop and pops and practise your landings. WHO recommended such a high wing loading at 60 jumps, I am for one thing sure it wasn't a tunnel rat!! Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adriandavies 0 #50 December 6, 2007 Tash i wish i had the experiance and the time to even look at being on the council, unfortuntly i run booze emphoriums in london which means hardly enough time to even jump. (1 - 2 days a week max) ( and i tend to rant on about things) And your right ranting won't help... but it was meant only for general disscussion purpose. only 3 people agreed about the shite attitude at some DZ's. a lot more, like yourself, seemed to be ok with the fact that that attitude prevails.(rather than be pissed off about it) And I still stand by the opinion that bad attitude's and wind tunnels(be it for there great customer service) will reduce active jumpers in the uk further more.... but i really hope i'm mistaken! I don't have a lot of experience of jumping at different UK DZ's so you can take this observation with a pinch of salt. Most DZ's are owned, run and managed by skydivers which means that they may not have a lot of general business experience. CCI's also tend to set the tone of the DZ so if these are ex military then you might expect a rule based mentality to prevail rather than a customer focus/custom service ethos. Maybe that is what you have observed and has led to you pointing out poor DZ service. If it is the case then I can't see the situation changing until you get more businessmen involved in DZ's. However when you listen to people like DT at Sibson or Ray Armstrong at Brid you will realise that there is not a lot of money in running DZ's in the UK meaning that by and large entrepreneurs are not interested in getting involved. To answer your other point about windtunnels. Both UK windtunnels also try to feed people into DZ's to jump. Airkix has recently hooked up with Sibson in order to arrange discounted tandems whilst a variety of DZ's advertise at Bodyflight. They are trying to get whuffos to jump for real. Also have a look at Kallend's thread with the link to the Wall Street Journal story about Dan BC. The general tone is that the USPA sees tunnels as a great tool to encourage the next generation of skydivers by introducing them to the sport at a younger age and to build up the skills they need before skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
