Gato 0 #1 June 16, 2008 I've seen a lot of threads where a lot of jumpers admit they've gone beyond recommended wingloadings and/or planforms before they really had the experience necessary to fly well. In looking for my first rig, this has lead me to a couple of observations about how a new jumper arrives and survives in this sport. And how they might not. All things being equal (experience, jumpsuit, fallrates, disabilities, weight belts aside), every skydiver is basically on equal ground with every other skydiver, in that everyone is assigned a body, and you have to live with the way it flies. In this way, a novice skydiver may feel he or she is a "natural", and very well may be so. As long as a freefalling human can be taught to deploy a parachute, everything's hunky dory. This is obviously a separate topic from FLYING a parachute. What I think is that this confidence in one's ability to fly the body might lead to a belief in one's ability to fly and land a parachute safely. I realize some methods of instruction try and take this into account, and I'm not having a go at any learning method, though I may come off like a Static Line salesman. While researching gear for myself, I realized that if I were to buy a Samurai or Competition Cobalt loaded at 1.6 for my first main, that would be the functional equivalent to a new pilot buying an F-18 Hornet as their first private aircraft. Can you imagine that? "Yes sir, thank you for my recreational pilot's license; do you know that online tactical fighter dealer? - my dad gave me money for a new plane!" This just wouldn't happen, right? As a new pilot, you'd more than likely be in something similar to what you learned on, if you even bought a plane, and you sure as shit wouldn't buy a new one. I guess what I'm saying is that I think it would be a good idea to draw a parallel between planes and parachutes - when I earn my A License, I think it would be a good idea for me to fly a "Cessna" parachute, not a Spitfire or Mistubishi Zero type of parachute. This has been discussed before, and I've seen threads comparing motorcycling and other activities to our sport. After having so many canopy flights and so little freefall experience, I'm convinced that the canopy deployment and flight is more important than the freefall, in terms of your survival. Of course, this is all from a noob's point of view - I'm just trying to make appropriate decisions about what I'm going to fly. Just some thoughts........T.I.N.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #2 June 16, 2008 If you want to see a bunch of people who are great at a freefall discpline but are shitty canopy pilots and don't know it then pull up a chair to the landing area at the U.S.P.A. Nationals. To answer your slightly vague query, yes, take it easy on canopy progression; everyone has to use their canopy but nobody has to freefall."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gato 0 #3 June 16, 2008 Interesting - I'll make it a point to attend sometime. I think my home DZ is sending a CReW team, but I'm not sure if that's this year or not. I wasn't really asking anything in my post, I think I was just being rather analytical and shooting my mouth off for a bit. Observations, you know.T.I.N.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastphil 0 #4 June 16, 2008 Without the freefall there is little point to the sport. Your parachute is comparable to an airport luggage convair; just an necessary end to the trip... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #5 June 16, 2008 QuoteWithout the freefall there is little point to the sport. Your parachute is comparable to an airport luggage convair; just an necessary end to the trip... Obvious troll Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VTmotoMike08 0 #6 June 16, 2008 Quote I'm convinced that the canopy deployment and flight is more important than the freefall, in terms of your survival. Um, duhBut you can also get hurt in a freefall collision with another jumper. But as you seem to understand, you have a much better chance, statistically, of hurting yourself under an open parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #7 June 16, 2008 I could agree with you, since my main focus is wingsuiting, but I still find landing to be challenging and exciting. Swoopers often make hop and pops, so they will probably have more to say about that... As for the danger level, it is entirely possible to screw up any part of a skydive, but rather than try and determine what is the most dangerous, I just try and minimize the risks of all of it, and try and not hurt myself or anybody else all the way through. Any time I start taking something for granted, you can bet that will be my next mistake.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #8 June 17, 2008 Warning: noob post! What I find confusing is people who say you should master every canopy before you downsize. I personally doubt that any but a very small percentage of us could master any canopy. This reasoning would suggest that I should buy a 280 and fly it until I "master" it, whatever that means. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going out & buying a bed sheet for swooping. My first non-student canopy is likely to be a Spectre 190 (I weigh 162) and I'll fly that to get a feel for it and then see how I go from there. I'll probably rent some 9 cells of the same size after I'm more comfortable to find out what they're like. The smallest canopy I expect to have in the next couple of years is a 170 but who knows, I might not get that good/comfortable. I listen to advice with this kind of thing. ; ) A little more on topic: What I wonder is this: are the low number of incidents in free fall due to the amount of focus put on free fall awareness & training and conversely the bias toward canopy injuries due to a lack of training in that area or is it actually the way it is? Yeah it's easier to hit the earth than another skydiver but the lack of focus on canopy *flight* training might have something to do with the number of collisions last year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VTmotoMike08 0 #9 June 17, 2008 QuoteWhat I wonder is this: are the low number of incidents in free fall due to the amount of focus put on free fall awareness & training and conversely the bias toward canopy injuries due to a lack of training in that area or is it actually the way it is? Yeah it's easier to hit the earth than another skydiver but the lack of focus on canopy *flight* training might have something to do with the number of collisions last year. Do you think you are qualified to make a statement that generalizes that there is a lack of canopy flight training within the skydiving community? I think the community, as a whole, is getting much better at this. Many (OK, some) dropzones will ground you for not properly following the set landing pattern. I have not seen any yet that will ground you for not completing the planned formation or running into someone in freefall. The second part of your post is more towards being correct. The reason more people get hurt from hitting the earth is pretty simple: it doesn't move when you hit it, and you are guaranteed to land on it after every skydive. Other jumpers do move when you hit them in freefall, and you can avoid doing so most of the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #10 June 17, 2008 Can't say i totally disagree with what he's saying. The emphasis on freefall IS a lot higher. Just look at the licence requirements; how many tasks are focused on freefall and how many on the actual canopy flight? Sure, the pattern and flare are very important and (de)briefed thoroughly, but there is a lot more to parachuting than being predictable on final and timing your flare well."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,134 #11 June 17, 2008 No, but he was a current (and very good) jumper in the 70's and 80's when that was largely true. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BoilingMidnight 0 #12 June 17, 2008 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Without the freefall there is little point to the sport. Your parachute is comparable to an airport luggage convair; just an necessary end to the trip... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Obvious troll You, and others like you, are the reason DZ.com has the reputation it so richly deserves."Iþ ik qiþa izwis, ni andstandan allis þamma unseljin." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #13 June 17, 2008 Talk to me in a couple thousand jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #14 June 17, 2008 Thanks for the clarification Wendy. You doing the Sept 100ways? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #15 June 17, 2008 I understand where jsaxton is coming from. Freefall is cool and all that, but some of us prefer the canopy aspect of the sport. I am not all that current right now, so take what I say with a boulder of salt. But one of the negative issues with low timers jumping high(er) performance canopies is things just happen that much faster when you are flying smaller higher performance canopies. You lose more altitude when your canopy spins up on you during a potential malfunction and even when it opens fine, you are flying around in the pattern that much faster and unless you know all the aspects of how best to fly the canopy in different WX conditions from different spots, getting back to the desired LZ is all that more difficult for the less than experienced. No it is more than just landing speeds that make flying high(er) performance canopies challenging. So it helps to have some time under your wing before people try to fly high(er) performance canopies. The gear is much safer these days than it was in yester'year. Too bad we humans continue to find ways to kill ourselves in this sport. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gato 0 #16 June 17, 2008 Quote ....one of the negative issues with low timers jumping high(er) performance canopies is things just happen that much faster when you are flying smaller higher performance canopies. You lose more altitude when your canopy spins up on you during a potential malfunction... One of my students is a flight instructor, and we've had a few conversations about the differences between flying a prop vs. flying a jet, the immediate problems being how much faster things happen and how much more room you need to turn the thing. It reminded me of some of the posts I've seen here, with similar language being used. Is it not true that most, if not all, general aviation principles apply to us as skydivers/canopy pilots? (Not asking you specifically, Canuck, just a rhetorical question.) T.I.N.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #17 June 17, 2008 QuoteIs it not true that most, if not all, general aviation principles apply to us as skydivers/canopy pilots? Yes they do apply here. Afterall we as skydivers are aviators. We just fly different wings. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #18 June 17, 2008 Quote Without the freefall there is little point to the sport. Your parachute is comparable to an airport luggage convair; just an necessary end to the trip... Come on, Phil. I'm sure you know a lot of CRWDogs who will disagree. However, CRW really fits into his theory that the danger is just starting when the parachute opens. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #19 June 17, 2008 QuoteWhat I find confusing is people who say you should master every canopy before you downsize. ...I should buy a 280 and fly it until I "master" it, whatever that means. Actually what is meant may be better expressed as, "become proficient in each canopy before moving on". And, yes, actually many people attain this proficiency. This proficiency level is clearly defined in a list of objectives posted by Bill Von some time back. It clearly states the tasks that one should be able to routinely be able to perform on a canopy in order to be considered "proficient" and at a minimum level to consider a performance upgrade. Kevin K._____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #20 June 17, 2008 Quote You, and others like you, are the reason DZ.com has the reputation it so richly deserves. "You are looking rather black today Mr. Kettle" "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastphil 0 #21 June 19, 2008 QuoteQuoteWithout the freefall there is little point to the sport. Your parachute is comparable to an airport luggage convair; just an necessary end to the trip... Obvious troll Sorry, my bad; wasn't trolling just stating an outdated opinion. Basically you can goof up in freefall and go unnoticed, but under canopy the mistakes become incidents... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #22 June 19, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Without the freefall there is little point to the sport. Your parachute is comparable to an airport luggage convair; just an necessary end to the trip... Obvious troll Sorry, my bad; wasn't trolling just stating an outdated opinion. Basically you can goof up in freefall and go unnoticed, but under canopy the mistakes become incidents... Understood , although I've seen up close some things in freefall that could have resulted in an incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt6242 0 #23 June 22, 2008 I wont dare throw advise on downsizing to you, but If you like PD's products as I do, get a Sabre 2( just my opinion). I currently own a Stiletto and Katana and have owned an original Sabre and 2 Sabre 2's. Lightly loaded Spectre's tend be alittle thumpish on landing. The Sabre 2 flare range and forgiveness with stability and great opening's and responsiveness make it (IMO) the most versitle canopy ever made for any expierence range. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
