First Man Down

[diablopilot 2]

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Most of the highly experienced pilots in Perris do 270's. Swoopers don't fly a conventional downwind, base, and final.

From my experience at Perris, most do. They fly a down wind, base, and 270 dgree turn onto final. Their turn to final will be quite high, possibly leading to confusion.

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(If they're showboating it downwind, they should be kicked out of the main landing and told to land at the pond.)

Point for hot dogs out there. It is your responsibility to put yourself in situations that will not cause risk to other parachutists. At Perris this means staying in control when landing in traffic. If you're working on something new, or show boating there are many different areas to use. Having to walk back or the fact your double manifested is no excuse for being rude or dangerous.

And people wonder why I do so many hop & pops. There's no traffic!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Sparky is right. Swooping is a privilage, and attitudes about it being a right tend to push dangerous situations.

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And on a related note, people need to be aware of the local swooping lanes and avoid over flying those areas under canopy. Case in point, a couple of weeks ago there I was set up at 800 feet above our swoop course and looking pretty good to initate my 270 turn. Except for that damn tandem canopy directly below me over flying the swoop course's entry gates at about 400 feet.

So what. You missed one swoop. Big deal. Would you throw up a fuss if your obstical had been a dust devil would you had the same rant?

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What could I do? The tandem was the lower canopy and thus had the right of way. I was screwed. I might have still performed my turn, but the reward was not worth the risk. Of course tandem masters are Gods at this DZ and they can do whatever they want to do and us fun jumpers (let alone those aweful swoopers that you obviously don't like) can't go up to a tandem God and tell them not to over fly the swoop course without getting shit thrown back at us.

Tandem Instructors are not gods because of where they fly, they have a tough job to do, and sometimes the fact they might encroch on someones "perfect" swoop doesn't weigh very heavy compared to bringing a 370 sq ft canopy with a freaked out student in turbulence and traffic while half the load is landing the wrong way.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[itllclear 1]

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There's much less chance of injuries when 1 person lands downwind and 19 into the wind than all 20 downwind.

Use your head.

Somebody's mistake is not worth my life.

A downwind landing with a PLF is more survivable than a canopy collision at 100 feet.

Or better yet -- spread out the landings

Blue Skies!

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[billvon 2,400]

>There's much less chance of injuries when 1 person lands
>downwind and 19 into the wind than all 20 downwind.

Whoah there! Collisions can _easily_ kill people. Downwind landings just get you dirty. If everyone is landing downwind, deciding to be the one guy who lands into the wind on the grass can get you grounded at Perris (and at most other DZ's.) As others have pointed out, landing out is a better solution than risking a head-on collision at 40mph with someone.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Deviating from the landing direction only causes additional confusion. If you're the one causing it you may be safe from collisions but you can bet your ass you're increasing the risk of those above you.

Ever watched what happens to the rest of the load when there are 2 conflicting directions> Everyone seems to pick one or the other direction and then the sky is filled with canopies flying every which way.

If everyone agrees to follow the set direction (or the first person down, whichever system the dz uses) jumpers always know which way they're supposed to be going, even if the person in front of them didn't do so.

Doing "what you want" just adds to the confusion. If you strongly disagree with the direction for that load, land elsewhere.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[veter_ 0]

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Downwind landings just get you dirty.

For someone with thousands of jumps, maybe.

For inexperienced jumpers who sometimes screw up even into-the-wind landing, downwind landing is a very big risk. Surprised by how great speed is there, they can get the extreme tunnel vision, panic, miscalculate flare.

Safety is the risk management. It's how to minimize the sum of all risks RiskOfCollision + RiskOfDownwindInjury + ... + riskN.

If student sees that everybody has landed, so that risk of collision = 0.00000%, why take a 31.415269% risk of injury in downwind landing? And whould you rather be hit by a scared student at 40mph or 15mph when stowing your brakes?

If first man down made a mistake (or a "joke"), but it's quite obvious, so the 2nd lands into the wind, what is the risk of collision if the rest lands as the 2nd?

Instead of enforcing the rules, they better teach how to evaluate the risks and uze the CPU in our heads to minimize the sum.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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what is the risk of collision if the rest lands as the 2nd?

Pretty much none. The problem is that not everyone is going to follow the next person down. Confusion reigns and in the end ultimately ends up being far more dangerous for everyone.

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Instead of enforcing the rules, they better teach how to evaluate the risks and uze the CPU in our heads to minimize the sum.

I agree, but my CPU tells me to land somewhere else rather than add to the confusion.

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If student sees that everybody has landed, so that risk of collision = 0.00000%, why take a 31.415269% risk of injury in downwind landing? And whould you rather be hit by a scared student at 40mph or 15mph when stowing your brakes?

I've seen instructors who thought they were the last down cross flight paths withing a few feet a mere 30 feet above the ground with a jumper who WAS following the set direction. Just land somewhere else for that load, I don't particularly like doing it either but it's not that hard - it's just a pain in the balls .

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[billvon 2,400]

>For inexperienced jumpers who sometimes screw up even into-the
>-wind landing, downwind landing is a very big risk. Surprised by how
> great speed is there, they can get the extreme tunnel vision, panic,
> miscalculate flare.

People who are prone to do such things should NOT be landing in the main landing area until they get the training to handle such events. Downwind landings occur sometimes even when everything is going well - the wind can switch rapidly (as it does in Perris in the summer) and windsocks can be misread. If this is going to panic a jumper, they need to remain on student canopies (which mitigate the results of trying to turn at 50 feet) and land well away from everyone else until they get better training, which should occur as soon as possible.

Low turns to face into the wind kill several people every year. People who will panic if they realize they might downwind are at grave risk for dying this way; they need to get canopy training ASAP. Telling such people that they'll be OK if they land against traffic in the main landing area is a very bad idea (IMO.)

>If student sees that everybody has landed, so that risk of collision =
> 0.00000%, why take a 31.415269% risk of injury in downwind
>landing?

He shouldn't! He should land well away from everyone else into the wind. That way, when the next load catches up to him as he's about to land, he won't have to land facing the fastest swoopers under the smallest canopies from the next load as he's landing.

>And whould you rather be hit by a scared student at 40mph
>or 15mph when stowing your brakes?

?? Neither one. Hitting anyone is unacceptable. Hence they should be landing away from everyone else.

Keep in mind we were not talking about jumpers right off student status in the previous discussion. We were talking about people with the training and experience to be able to use the main landing area, rather than the area that most DZ's reserve for students. A long walk back is better than a short ambulance ride, especially if a jumper is worried they might panic on landing, or cannot handle a downwind landing.

[damion75 0]

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For inexperienced jumpers who sometimes screw up even into-the-wind landing, downwind landing is a very big risk. Surprised by how great speed is there, they can get the extreme tunnel vision, panic, miscalculate flare.

Perhaps the 'inexperienced' jumper should land somewhere else - most major DZs try to provide separate landing areas for experienced and inexperienced jumpers. And that probably saves a few lives / accidents each year!

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Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[meandean 0]

Rules are not necessarily = safety.

There's much less chance of injuries when 1 person lands downwind and 19 into the wind than all 20 downwind.

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If everyone thought this way, than everyone would choose their own landing direction as they see fit. It would be a free-for-all in the lz. What risk of collision would you calculate that as?

[pilotdave 0]

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People who are prone to do such things should NOT be landing in the main landing area until they get the training to handle such events.

What percentage of dropzones in the world have multiple landing areas? And why does it sound like so many DZs don't just pick a landing direction before boarding? That works great except on days with light and variable wind, when you just know the first guy down is gonna be a dumbass and chase the wind sock, disregarding the predetermined landing direction. Just follow the plan and there's no problem...

Dave

[Liemberg 0]

I dunno about this 'First man down' rule - in fact I don't like it. At my place the first man down often is the 'Velocity 104' guy who loads his toy above 2 and often makes down-wind landings training for the swoop tour. I'm not happy with all the other lemmings following him since most of the time he is well on his way to the packing area, by the time the others are on final...

Tunnel vision, miscalculated flares...

What I am trying to build (but I stink at building) is a tetrahedron that needs more than 3 meters of wind before it starts to change direction.

Should be resting on a pole and 'follow the wind' but only if the windchange is significant enough to turn it.
That way you get a 'fixed' landing direction against the last known wind direction and probably no eratic changes during a group landing.
Now if the first man down decides to ignore it, others don't have to (and it may be that he gets a public flogging )

Seems like the only viable solution to me.
(Then again, I'm situated on a large piece of real-estate and islands are - well - windy...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[mjosparky 3]

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And whould you rather be hit by a scared student at 40mph or 15mph when stowing your brakes?

Why would you be standing in the middle of the landing area stowing your brakes? Seems to me that would be a good time to keep alert to the possibility of other canopies landing.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerrob 558]

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And on a related note, people need to be aware of the local swooping lanes and avoid over flying those areas under canopy. Case in point, a couple of weeks ago there I was set up at 800 feet above our swoop course and looking pretty good to initate my 270 turn. Except for that damn tandem canopy directly below me over flying the swoop course's entry gates at about 400 feet. What could I do? The tandem was the lower canopy and thus had the right of way. I was screwed. I might have still performed my turn, but the reward was not worth the risk. Of course tandem masters are Gods at this DZ and they can do whatever they want to do and us fun jumpers (let alone those aweful swoopers that you obviously don't like) can't go up to a tandem God and tell them not to over fly the swoop course without getting shit thrown back at us.

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All instructors are expected to lead by setting good examples.
Your tandem instructors are setting bad examples.
Naughty TI!
No treats for you!

[billvon 2,400]

>What percentage of dropzones in the world have multiple landing areas?

Of all the 'normal' DZ's I've been at, there has been a preferred main landing area and a student area that's much bigger. Sometimes the preferred area is just a corner of the larger field, which also works.

>And why does it sound like so many DZs don't just pick a landing
>direction before boarding?

Because not all DZ's have reliable winds. Perris doesn't.

[riggerrob 558]

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Rules are not necessarily = safety.

There's much less chance of injuries when 1 person lands downwind and 19 into the wind than all 20 downwind.

Use your head.

Somebody's mistake is not worth my life.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I disagree.
People landing in a variety of different directions confuses/scares me!

[Samurai136 0]

As a tandem instructor ,I often wonder how people have "traffic" issues with Tandems. I can understand a situation with multiple A/C turning loads.

Generally, everyone gets out before tandems and opens significantly lower. How do you end up "suddenly" above a tandem on final?

When I swoop, it's rarely ever in a crowded pattern. I never complain about what someone else did or feeling robbed out of a phat swoop. Life is too Short. Have fun. If someone comments I usually respond, "Yeah, I saw you. What did you see? Did you see me? No? I couldn't figure it out so I just made a safe landing and followed the pattern." Usually it's around the bonfire having a beer so things are real casual.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[billvon 2,400]

>Generally, everyone gets out before tandems and opens significantly
>lower. How do you end up "suddenly" above a tandem on final?

A student opens at 5000 feet under a navigator, while the tandem snivels to 4500 feet. Or the next load gets out when the tandems are at 2000 feet. It happens at big DZ's a lot, less often at smaller ones.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Generally, everyone gets out before tandems and opens significantly lower. How do you end up "suddenly" above a tandem on final?

High altitude hop n' pops & wingsuit jumps.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[dragon2 0]

Not "suddenly" but I usually do end up above the tandems because I mostly do only wingsuit jumps anymore... But even so, I don't see the big deal. If for some reason i do end up at their level, I go for the big ass landing field instead of for the peas where I know the tandem is gonna land. Usually I can manage to land either after or before the tandems though.

I fly a conservative left-hand pattern (left hand is mandatory at our DZ), don't do s-turns or stuff like that, and I still get comments (to put it nicely) from swoopers (well usually from the same guy) that I'm ruining their swoop. Well tough, I'm very predictable in my pattern, I just fly a big ass spectre 135 () so if somebody comes from above and usually from behind me (say AFF I), tough luck if you can't swoop. And we got this very big landing area too so there's PLENTY of room. I've been chewed out a couple times now by the same guy who just says I don't get it. Maybe I don't, but if you want to swoop, I say don't do AFF and then complain that I take too long to get down or whatever the heck his problem is (he never really says, just walks away angry), go jump out at 5k all on your own so we don't end up on level at 800 ft every now and then...

Oh well, rant over

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[diablopilot 2]

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And why does it sound like so many DZs don't just pick a landing direction before boarding?

Because in 20 minutes the wind direction and speed can change. Watched it happen today, shift of about 130 degrees, and the speed change was about 20 to 25mph net.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[lewmonst 0]

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that damn tandem canopy directly below me over flying the swoop course's entry gates at about 400 feet. What could I do?

Get a Tandem rating and see if you feel the same way.

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[mjosparky 3]

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Why the sudden hostility towards swoopers?

No hostility towards swoopers. Just wondering why they think they are right and the rest of the world is wrong.

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but why are we so evil for doing what we do when the window of opportunity presents itself to us.

You are not evil for doing what you do. I think it is kind of cool. Not my thing, but cool. But I don't think I should have to alter my approach and where I land to fit your "window of opportunity" Any time you make a maneuver where you turn your back to the pattern or the landing area, like in a 270, with other jumpers present, you are creating a hazard.

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hat gets me is the jumper spiraling down over the landing area under a biggish canopy thinking that they can set the landing direction

The term "biggish canopy" is kind of relative. I would guess what is big to you is little to me. The canopies I consider "biggish" do not spiral down. Do you think is OK for "littlish" (is that a word) canopies to spiral down?

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I made the mistake last year of thinking I could be the first one down at the Eloy holiday boogie

It bothers you but you tried it at a boogie at one of the largest DZ's in the country. Whats wrong with this picture.

In almost 30 years of jumping I have been scared on the ground only a few times. And those few time were caused by swoopers come through the landing area, low and fast, using other jumpers as gates. Now they may be the best canopy pilot in the world, but when you don't know that it is not cool. It is scary.

Please swoop to your hearts content. But remember to share the sky with those that choose not to swoop.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[pilotdave 0]

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As a tandem instructor ,I often wonder how people have "traffic" issues with Tandems.

When I jumped a PD-150, I could be first out of an otter doing a solo and still be last on the ground. I used to have tandems spiraling past me or chasing me around all the time. They didn't get in my way though.

Dave

[Freeflysmiley 2]

At Empuriabrava, a very busy DZ, there are many windsocks indicating the wind, and a very large horizontal white 'T' on a pivot that can be clearly seen from 4000ft down. In decent wind this will also indicate landing direction. In very very light winds the DZ Controller anchors the 'T' in the designated landing direction.
Althlough i only have a 100 jumps I've never seen a near collision, or people landing in different directions. It seems to work very very well, and for me the thought of having to spot, then watch a much lower jumper and where he's landing seems like an unneccessary complication.
IMHO

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Practise the 6 P's!
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