What if it happened>?

[D22369 0]

1) If you loaned your rig to someone and they bounced for whatever reason, how legally liable are you? does the dz waiver cover you at all in this circumstance?

2) How hard would it be to get your rig back from the authorities (FAA, local law enforcement, etc) would you need to provide proof that the rig in question is yours?

3) Would the container need to be cut off even if the person was deceased? If it wasn't cut, would it need to be sent to the manufacturer for inspection?
(I have seen a rig after terminal impact, it seemed for the most part to be serviceable)

Thanks;
Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[mr2mk1g 10]

legally - it depends what country your in

if they bounce at terminal - the rig would be fucked, there would be ribs through the reserve tray and all sorts of damage to it. No one would certify it.

If they had a hard PH landing - well theres one on e-bay this week (if not it might have just finished). The former owner lived, just, and it needed a new harness cos the old one was screwed on impact.

edit: cant find it now - must have sold

[Tonto 1]

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if they bounce at terminal - the rig would be fucked, there would be ribs through the reserve tray and all sorts of damage to it. No one would certify it.

The ribs don't do any such thing. If they go in stable, usually everything vents through the pelvic floor. In a sit or a stand or head down - the chances are good that they'll come to bits.

You have WAY too much faith in the strength of the human body.

What may damage the rig are things like connector links, but such damage is relatively minor. It's also going to need a good wash.

It'll be months till you get the rig back.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[councilman24 36]

1) depends on country, and more likely family. Anybody can sue for anything. If your rig wasn't maintained (at the very least legal) and that contributed you might face criminal charges as well as a civil suit. (I'm not a lawyer.) If you gave a 50 jump wonder a 70 sq. ft. pocket rocket I'd be worried to. I wouldn't count on any DZ waiver to cover you if your not an employee.

2) Who owns it really isn't much of an issue. Lots of people know that. If it was a terminal impact you might not want it back. Gear has been returned in several days to a couple of weeks from local law enforcement. If they think there is a crime it'll be awhile.... months, years.. depending on case.

3) The couple of fatalities that I've investigated did not have bones sticking into the rig, but I doubt I'd want to jump it anyway. (Didn't you know we use that rib story to scare newbies.) If someone flew themselves into the ground, likely advanced life support would be applied and the last thing we (licensed MFR in MI) care about is the rig. If it isn't cut and it's a high speed impact, I'd worry about hidden damage. In the case of one fatality the rig had a two pin continuous loop reserve. The loop was routed between the gromments and not through the bag. The impact broke both reserve loops and moved the middle of the loop fast enough in 1/4 to 1/2 an inch to MELT the loop to the nylon reserve freebag. The loops were in place but melted to the bag by friction. You can imagine this kind of damage occuring in other parts of the rig or harness. At the very least each stitch in the harness would need to be inspected.

But you've had a real bad day if you do loan your rig out and they bounce.

Terry

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[mr2mk1g 10]

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(Didn't you know we use that rib story to scare newbies.)

Guess I was repeting urban/DZ legend told to me in training when I said that then.

No DZ waiver would cover you. You could have the borrower sign your own waiver, but then you'd most likely have to charge them (at least a token amount) to make the contract valid. Even then, in many countries you are not able to legaly exclude your liability for causing someones death through acts of your own negligence. Therefore even if you have them sign a 100 page waiver, if your negligence causes them death or personal injury - you can be sued.

The american legal system in its infinate wisdom, has decided that you can exclude all liability, (so I understand - not US lawyer though) which is why you have huge DZ waivers.

The answer is then, so long as you are in the US, charge for rig hire and have a huge ass waiver, you can ensure your not gonna get sued for killing someone. Other than that you arnt gonna get sued by anyone if its not your fault eg not an equipment fault.

I prefer my method though - I keep my kit safe enough to jump, be it my ass or my mates ass.

[billvon 2,454]

1) In the US anyone can sue for anything, and laywers often employ the 'shotgun' approach when it comes to lawsuits - name everyone and anyone, and then drop people from the suit later when it becomes clear they were uninvolved or have no money. Having no money is a good way to protect yourself from lawsuits BTW - you're simply not worth their time.

2) I have found that the cops are pretty good about stuff like that. If the DZO says it's your rig, and no one disagrees, they'll generally give
it back to you.

3) Very few EMT's have the authority to pronounce someone dead unless there's absolutely no question (i.e. his head is missing.) And until the victim is declared dead they'll generally try resuscitation, and generally that means removing the rig. If the rig is cut in the right places, it's pretty easy to fix. For example, on a fully articulated rig, cutting the MLW just below the handles makes it a pretty easy repair. Mick Cottle told me that on his rigs (Reflexes) cutting the lateral strap on a non-articulated harness results in an easy to fix rig.

It, of course, will have to be inspected, but any master rigger can both inspect the rig and do any minor repairs needed as a result of impact. If there's major damage (i.e. damage to the reserve risers or bent harness rings) it may not be worth fixing.

[skymedic 0]

the ribs will do no such thing at all....if a person bounces at terminal it will not tear into the container. your body doesn't splash....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[skymedic 0]

Bill, I have the authority to pronounce on the scene...I can also with hold rescusitative efforts if they are not working...just some of the rights we are granted as paramedics in IL. now EMT's can not....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[Ron 7]

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if they bounce at terminal - the rig would be fucked, there would be ribs through the reserve tray and all
sorts of damage to it. No one would certify it.

I have NEVER heard of ribs going through the pack tray...EVER.

I have seen many bounce rigs. Most look like they could be jumped, but many have large blood stains on them.

..I jumped my old teammates Main and reserve at the Nationals in Chicago...The Rig had to many blood stains on it to be used again. He went in at terminal.

Paramedics can in some cases say someone is dead....Other cases they can call in to a DR and he can make that call.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jmfreefly 0]

I believe that rig on ebay is the rig that my rigger just bought. Using it as part of his Master Training / Exam.

From what he said, the EMTs cut the crap out of it
in places that it didnt need to be cut.

Fellow jumper at DZ femured and told those around him (through his pain) to take off his legstraps before the ambulance arrived so they wouldnt cut it.
That is some heads up thinking..
Except that moving him without knowledge of the full extent of his injuries wasn't 100% smart.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Ok everyone - see above, I already retracted that and said I was just repeating something told to me ages ago which Councilman24 points out is common a scare story for newbies.

***
(Didn't you know we use that rib story to scare newbies.)
Guess I was repeting urban/DZ legend told to me in training when I said that then.
***

[Ron 7]

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Ok everyone - see above, I already retracted that and said I was just repeating something told to me ages
ago which Councilman24 points out is common a scare story for newbies.

So you just took something you were told and had no knowledge of and reported it as fact?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[councilman24 36]

I didn't mean to imply we (collective we of experienced skydivers) lied to newbies on purpose. But it is common DZ legend that I was told and believed for many of my early skydiving years.

Terry

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[hookitt 0]

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So you just took something you were told and had no knowledge of and reported it as fact?

Let it go Ron. you're baiting us. It also has nothing to do with the topic.

As far as rigs being usable after some one goes in at terminal, I've seen some that were not noticeably damaged and one was Just ripped up. I figured out what angle the body had to have hit to cause such damage.

I put one rig back in service after it was washed. The brother of the victim insisted. It was airworthy so the request was fulfilled.

Edit ... I'll rephrase that as not to bait further...

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Ron 7]

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Let it go Ron. That's the basis of many of your arguements.

Name one.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Clownburner 0]

FYI: In California, an EMT can pronounce someone dead if there is 'obvious mortal injury' - a head missing is a good example, but there are certainly others that might apply (head attached but broken into lots of little bits, for example). It's rarely done though, because 1) there's usually a paramedic on site at a trauma call, and then it's his/her job, not the EMT; 2) it's a lot of paperwork to fill out. Many EMTs will continue resuscitation on a corpse until the reach the emergency room, just so the ER doc can pronounce it - some EMTs (like Ski Patrol) are taught to do exactly that.

NREMT-B

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[michaelflying 0]

I don't think I would jump a rig that someone has bounced in. Just does not seem right.

;(

www.skydivekzn.co.za

[Tonto 1]

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But you've had a real bad day if you do loan your rig out and they bounce.

But not the worst day there...

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[schattenjaeger 0]

I don't know about you guys, but this whole topic gives me the willies! *shudder*

[mjosparky 3]

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Bill, I have the authority to pronounce on the scene...I can also with hold rescusitative efforts if they are not working...just some of the rights we are granted as paramedics in IL. now EMT's can not....

If you do not have contact with a base hospital and have no equipment with you, you are about the same as an EMT.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[D22369 0]

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I don't know about you guys, but this whole topic gives me the willies! *shudder*

Everyone should know the ramifications of loaning a rig.........unfortunately personal responsiblility doesnt exist in america anymore.....Can you see loaning your rig to a buddy, and the worst happens......then months later you are hauled into court by a grieving family looking for someone to blame, cause it couldnt be their son/daughters fault that they died......had to be someones elses fault.........
This scenario happened in Nevada in recent years......

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[tbrown 26]

Everyone should know the ramifications of loaning a rig.

[lawrocket 3]

Actually, depending on the waiver, it might. Though I haven't seen a DZ waiver in over a year, there may be language on it that would absolve the lender of responsibility. There could be an argument that the lender is not in privity with the waiver, but it seems as though the risk is known.

There may also be an assumption of risk argument. Anyone in skydiving now has signed the waiver. The risks are known. The borrowing of a rig would show an "implied" assumption of risk.

Also, in terms of having someone pay you to borrow the rig, if I were a plaintiff's lawyer, I'd hammer on that point, since now it becomes a business transaction. The lender should have known about this, and if he's charging for it, he would be able to spread the cost of his rentals. And if there is some defect in the rig, a plaintiff's lawyer would have a field day saying, "This wasn't a case of a friendly loan. This guy CHARGED for the rig."

No need to charge for the rig. That moves it into a contractual relationship. That implies duty. You do not want any duty. God, when I say that I sound like an absolute ghoul.

Sounds good, but you're still in for some time wasting...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[pack40 0]

Here in Hungary you can not jump with a rig that
was involved in an accident/ctastrophe. Even instructors can not jump with it.

OVER

[phoenixlpr 0]

Upon which regulation? Ruleset nr 39? I dont think so.