Having trouble docking!!!

[gsxrjumper720 0]

So i've got 20 jumps under my belt, on the way to my A license, but I'm having some trouble with docking. My first attempt was a complete mess, never getting closer than 20 feet from the jump coach. Second jump went a little better, I managed to touch the coach as a flew past him, but still not a solid dock. 5,000 feet comes at you way to fast :). I have been to the wind tunnel and did vey well, but when I tried to bring those new found skills out into the real world I had a bad case of the brain farts... I'm hoping you all will have some suggestions on I can either over come my set backs and make me the best plane jumper I can be. As always thanks for all your help.

Life is way too short not to enjoy every minute of it :)

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

I only have a little over 100 jumps so take it for what its worth but sounds to me like you should probably just work on being conscious about the position of your legs. If you flew past him you are using to much legs, if you go out there on a jump and start to backslide you are not using enough. If you're above or below you should probably work on fall rate too. I've had the same problems, still do a little but its nothing you cant get with some practice.

[pinkfairy 0]

You say yourself that you are getting better in 2 jumps, so I'm sure it will get lots better if you give it another 5.

20 jumps is a very low jump number, and most skydivers have had many "where are the others?" jumps.

I had some tunnel time, and I found that when I got out in the sky, I had a tendency to backslide, so I had to straighten my legs some, maybe that will help for you too?

BTW, why doesn't your coach keep up with you?

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[tetra316 0]

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BTW, why doesn't your coach keep up with you?

It's the student's responsiblity to come and dock on the coach if they want to pass that section of the A license, not the other way around unless it's purely a fun jump.

[peregrinerose 0]

How is a student supposed to learn that they are back sliding if the coach is busy staying close? I'll help the student a little bit, but for the most part, I fall and let the student adjust his body.

To the OP, two things, first keep your legs out, legs on butt is very common and makes you back slide. Second, don't dock on anything you can't bite... meaning DON'T REACH for the grip! That'll make you pop up and back slide too. Third, be patient with yourself. You have 20 jumps, not 2000, you're still learning the basics and perfection is not expected this quick

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[hackish 8]

Although people on the interweb can often offer suggestions maybe you should be getting a good debrief with your instructor. I used to have a problem with digging my knees in. Took a coach to notice and point that out and presto it solved the problem I had.

-Michael

[billvon 2,400]

If you can get close but can't close the last few feet, it's likely you are reaching for grips. (It's natural.) Try flying your face into his face. It feels strange, but if you try to do that, your hands will end up close enough to take grips.

If you are just plain flying right by him, take it slower. Plan on stopping at a place 10 feet in front of him, then slowly closing the last few feet.

[azureriders 0]

I know it is long, but I think very well worth the read to you, other students, and aspiring coaches alike.

First, no one can give you the answers you really need over the www. We have not seen you fly and have read your log book, etc etc. But I will give you my perspective from what I am reading into your post.

A comment, or thought process, that I hear all to often is this: "Lets see, next thing on the A card, oh A dive and dock, so lets go do that" This sometimes comes from the student, but sadly it normally comes from the coach. In any case, it is 98% of the time, the wrong answer. You can not do a dive and dock, until you can dock, you can not dock, until you can match fall rate. As with any other part of skydiving, you should never add more than one new thing at a time.

So, a better course of action is a jump with nothing but fall rate drills. Then a jump with docking drills, and if they go well, by the bottom end of the jump your coach should be complicating things a bit by giving you docking with fall rate issues. If you did not get to the more difficult docks in the second jump, then maybe another jump that is fall rate and docking combined. Once you can do this, then you should be ready to add the dive in there. It does not really matter what order you do these in, just remember to only add one at a time. I saw a coach teach a student to only Dive, the student would stop 10-20 feet out and the coach would drop out causing the student to have to dive again. In later jumps the other components were added. This is not the order that I use, but it worked out very well.

A coach, while not allowed to assist you on your dive and dock for the A license, should still work to keep up the success rate through your progression. When giving you fall rate drills, they should start mildly, allowing the student to achieve that level before moving on. The same with docking. The coach can, and should, assist with the success rate of each jump, reading the student and pushing more and more with each dock, and each jump.

Now I know that what I have just described is a minimum of three coach jumps to get your dive and docks, but step back and look at the options here. You could have a very nice fall rate jump with a complete debrief; then another with docking and another complete debrief; and then a very successful skydive, knocking out both dive to docks in one jump. OR, you could attempt a dive and dock right off, getting no closer than 20 feet to your coach; go up again and manage to touch him once which he logs as a successful dock, and it is not; then on the third jump you do a bit better and get a dive and dock, but your fall rate and docking skills are still lacking. Now which is option is better? If it takes more than three jumps, which option is better? Be in a hurry to sign off your card, OR take the time to learn each step, and probably sign off the card just as quick anyway; which is better?

Again, I am responding to your request for info on an internet forum so I could be off on your actual needs. However, I am certain that if you are not getting closer than 20 feet to your coach, you were not ready to be 20 feet from him in the first place. Some of my coach students do indeed wind of making extra fall rate and docking jumps, but it is very odd that one of them do not get both dive and docks, most of them even getting a third, on a single jump the first time we try them.

It is not my intent to be bashing on your coach/s. A lot of time we get pressure from the student that thinks he is ready and does not want to pay for three and four coach jumps when all they think they need is just the one for their dive and docks. Also not saying that this is you, just make sure that it is not and that you are willing to work on what ever the coach thinks you need. You should also make sure that you are learning the reason for this drill to be a requirement of an A license. When you dive and dock on a coach, he is laying base, the same as a formation would be doing. While a coach should have the skill to avoid any danger you may create for him while attempting to dock on him, a four way does not have the maneuverability to do the same. I have seen A cards signed off for “I managed to touch him just before break off, so now all I need is one more dive and dock”. I hate to admit it, but that was a quote from my own log book when I had 25 jumps, so I know this happens. Back to the point, does someone that can touch a coach once in a skydive, have the skill not to dive straight into a four way at a high closing speed, or to not sink out, or float up under, or cause any other danger of a long list that a base formation that can not move or may not see him coming.

Of my ~1500 jumps I have ~150 AFF, ~600 video, ~250 pre A license coach jumps, with the rest being RW and misc. I only mention these numbers to point out my most favorite of all my jumps, I have ~250 of them. With AFF and video I have lately found it hard to have the time to coach jumps, I miss them so bad that I am now working on getting my Coach Course Director rating so that I may continue to be a part of our coach program.

You are doing very well in the fact that you are wanting to learn, you are thinking of your skills even when not at the DZ, you are asking for help (both here and I am sure from the people you trust). You will do fine and don’t get discouraged, you are right on track with everyone else. We all have had our stumbling blocks, you and I just happen to share this one. Good luck to you and I hope I have helped.

[NickDG 23]

There are some misconceptions about free fall positions and it even gets more convoluted when you throw in wind tunnel practice . . .

In a wind tunnel if you look at a stationary point, or at your tunnel instructor who's standing against the wall, you can pretty much lock into a single position and stay in one spot. Especially because being a novice in the tunnel the wind speed won't be all that high.

But there is no wind speed throttle in real free fall. And I don't care how experienced you coach or instructor is at 120 mph every time he twitches he's going to move. How much he moves depends on how fast he corrects for his unintentional twitch with another intentional twitch. And usually these moves are so small they are unperceivable to a novice's eye. And everyone, first jump student to world champion, twitches.

We all too often tell our novices to "stick out your legs," or do something with your arms, or your arch, and so on. So they lock into those positions and then wonder why it isn’t working. But good freefall control is a series of continuous and never ending movements to keep you where you want to be, or get you where you want to go. And it's why laying a student down on a creeper and locking him into a good freefall position is the worst thing you can do if you just leave it at that. You have to explain things a bit further.

Look at video of novice free flyers or belly flyers. They wiggle around in freefall like fish flopping on a hook. It looks bad but they are actually doing the right thing. As they get more experienced the movements will get smaller and they will look a lot smoother. Eventually they will look like they are not moving much at all, but they are, and all the time, you just can’t see it as easily.

Take two experienced jumpers faced off in the sky and it looks like they are glued to each other. But each, without even realizing it, is continually adjusting for their own and each others twitches. And then it looks smooth.

I've probably oversimplified this explanation as it's really the speech you give mid-level AFF students, but some more advanced novices don't get it yet either. It's why what we do is not called flight, that's sitting in row 23, seat B, sipping a rum and coke. What we do is called flying, and that means moving, all the time . . .

NickD

[zoobrothertom 5]

Ha, gotta love it!

It's like trying to stand still. You're swaying and moving (albeit, very gently) to maintain balance.

Skydiving is the same.

____________________________________
I'm back in the USA!!

[gsxrjumper720 0]

I appriciate all of your expertise and will look forward to actually steping back and try and identify what exactly what I'm doing wrong, with the help of my jump coach. And start from thar rather than just doing another docking jump in hopes of "touching" the coach before we have to brake off. Beside, what's the difference if I achieve my A license on my 25th or 27th jump, when I plan on being a part of this great sport for the rest of my life. Again thanks for all your help, now lets go put it to good use :)

Life is way too short not to enjoy every minute of it :)

[Snowflake 0]

If you can find the book for Skydive U get it and read it. In one part it describes The "red zone", which i think is 10 yards from your target. At that point it's better to stop, see where you wanna go, and slowly move in from that point.

If you blow by your target it's harder to cancel the speed turn and then close again. As opposed to moving in slowly from 10 yards out. The same applies to when your closing vertical distance so you don't go low.

At this point in time slow=fast. Later if RW turns out to be your thing fast will equal fast, if that doesn't make sense now it will later

[azureriders 0]

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what's the difference if I achieve my A license on my 25th or 27th jump

On your 28th jump it will make no difference what so ever. Myself, I made it on #32. You have a great attitude and that will serve you very well in this sport.

[peregrinerose 0]

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what's the difference if I achieve my A license on my 25th or 27th jump

On your 28th jump it will make no difference what so ever. Myself, I made it on #32. You have a great attitude and that will serve you very well in this sport.

Agreed. Mine was jump #33

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[NickDG 23]

When I was coming up I never got an "A" or "B" license. And still don't have either one. They were worthless in those days as once you were signed off "student status" by an Instructor you became a skydiver.

I put in for the "C" license though because you needed that to become a Jumpmaster and later of course my "D" license to become an Instructor.

I think it should still be that way today.

But they found a new way to nickel and dime you poor guys to death . . .

NickD

[popsjumper 2]

Think positive.

Hey. First attempt...20 feet! That's a lot better than a lot of people!

Then you got close enough to touch! HooHAA We're getting there!

Tunnel time! Yowzaa....everyone should be so lucky!

One step at a time and practice, practice, practice!
Actually, you're on a roll...keep on truckin'!

Ask some of the long-time jumpers how long and how many attempts it took to build the first 6-way.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[fanya 3]

I have 34 jumps and still not very close to my to A yet if it makes ya feel better.

[Marc11 0]

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Second, don't dock on anything you can't bite... meaning DON'T REACH for the grip! That'll make you pop up and back slide too.

Yes I agree with this statement very much lol. I'm sure you more experienced people know this already, but I just discovered this weekend when I went to dock on my coach that whenever I reached out to grab him, I just went backwards and got really frustrated! When I tried to compensate for the back sliding by extending my legs, my fall rate decreased and he ended up slightly below me! So definately DON'T reach out for whoever you are docking on lol.

[rfreddo 0]

Here's a body position mental image that I stumbled upon many years ago when working with low jump number students on docking. I'm not a current instructor, and haven't been for many years, so maybe this is alreay part of the current curriculum. Anyway, for some this helped, for others it didn't. For many, using this mental imagry in combination with video really made the light go on.

When we're teaching students to move using legs, we tell them legs out to move forward, in to go back and neutral to fall straight. Then we put them on a creeper and practice and hopefully build some muscle memory. Then we jump, and for many it's a frustrating experience as they swear up and down that they had their legs out and couldn't go forward, or had their legs neutral and back slid. The problem for many of them, it occurred to me, is that the muscle memory we teach on the ground is not the same as the muscle action we use in the air. For example, to maintain a neutral leg position on the ground, we have to contract our hamstrings to fight gravity and keep our lower legs from falling to the floor. But in the air, we have to use the opposite muscles to keep our legs from being folded up behind us by the force of the relative wind. So when a student feels like he is extending his legs in the air, he may actually only be applying enough force to maintain a neutral position. Similarly, when he feels like he's holding a neutral position in the air, he may actually have his legs folded up behind him if he's not pushing against the wind.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there. I've seen it help some who were having docking issues related to leg position.

[in2jumping 0]

Maybe you are trying to hard and not relaxing. I recently had a jump where I was overly amped up and rushing things and was all over the fricken sky.
One of the hardest things learn to do in skydiving is learning too relax and fly body. Try to visualize what you are going to do on the the way to altitude, do not be in a rush/hurry, try not to over analyze what you are doing and most of all relax.

[Tuna-Salad 0]

Like the last guy here said, relax maybe over thinking it. All I can say is and I quote from several experienced jumpers "Reach with your legs". Also something I did early on that made it hard was when I got below someone trying to dock I would keep my eyes on them in turn making me fall faster since I was arching more. I was told to turn 90 degrees to the person and look over my shoulder. To be honest I cannot tell if it helped or not. Now I just "hug a big beach ball" to slow down.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[pirana 0]

The posts about lots of constant little movements and comparing it to walking or standing is right on.

When we first learn something as adults (or near adults) we are very mechanical about it. We spend time concentrating on exactly where body parts are, where they need to go next, and how to execute the movement. As little kids, we learn by feel.

Don't ignore the mechanics, but also try to pay attention to the feel.

You are not failing, you are learning. As you get more relaxed, and are flying more by feel than focusing on putting tab A in slot B, you will become much smoother and be making finer and more timely adjustments. Soon, you will not need to think thru the mechanics of a good swoop and dock any more than you think thru the mechanics of walking a curved line on the pavement. You will just feel your way thru it.

And ditto on the spending debrief time with the coach/instructor/qualified veterans at your DZ. Buy them a beer, stand around the fire, and soak up what they have. They've seen you fly and are your best source for feedback. (What you get here are tips and advice, what you get from the skilled people that actually watch you is feedback).

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[popsjumper 2]

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The problem for many of them, it occurred to me, is that the muscle memory we teach on the ground is not the same as the muscle action we use in the air.

Which is why a good instructor will take their insteps or shins in his hands and lift and tell the student to push against them or give some resistance. Hopefully, with added instructional commentary, this will instill in the student the need to actively push against the wind with their legs using the "opposite muscles".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Tuna-Salad 0]

Like some of the others have said you will probably constantly move your legs to make fine adjustments. like driving a car you don't keep the wheel in the exact same place.

This is a video of one of my skydives and I THINK actually shows the leg movements people are speaking of. correct me if i'm wrong about this and I will remove it. There are also a few bad habits here. I am by no means saying try to be like me.. i figured this might help to show the movements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yKHipRYr8U

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[gsxrjumper720 0]

So after three long weeks without being able to jump, I finally got up this weekend. I did just a refresher jump, practicing the A check dive. Feeling confident I attempted another Dock. I'm still having trouble with me exits (but that's a whole different topic), which usually puts me lower than the instructor due to tumbling. so I took someones advice and turned so I could see the instructor from a side view so I wouldn't have to look up, loosing more altitude. and grabbed on to that giant beach ball, or as my instructor would say "Make yourself BIG!!" and got on his same plain. He decided he wasn't going to help me at all, and put himself into a wicked back slide. So I had to work pretty hard to get all the way to him. When I got close I slowed down my forward speed and (without reaching) got my first solid dock. Man did it feel good, and felt good to get that out of the way :) I really attribute my success to the helpful advice from you guys (and the confidence it brought) and a good briefing from my jump Coach. Thanks again for all your help, and I look forward to picking your brains some more in the years to come.

Life is way too short not to enjoy every minute of it :)