How many jumps before using a camera?

[DON321 0]

how many jumps should you have before you start to wear a camera helmet? dont want to rush into it but would like to start getting some jump footage

[drunk 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3033162;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

[cpoxon 0]

It's the first answer in the sticky at the top of the Photography and Video forum.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[NickDG 23]

I just went and read the links and also Bill's article.

Here's my thoughts . . . And I'm going to climb out on limb here and just hope it doesn't get sawed off . . .

I started jumping still cameras long before there were consumer video cameras. And I had maybe 300 jumps at the time. But in those days you went into your garage and drilled holes in an old motorcycle helmet, Then made yourself an aluminum mount and hung a three pound motorized Nikon F on it. Then you bought a Newton ring sight, if you could afford one, but if not and like me, you fashioned one out of a wire coat hangar. Then you attached the shutter release wire which was long enough to go down the sleeve of your jumpsuit and into your left hand.

My first camera helmet probably had 10 prime snag points on it plus that wire flopping around. And there was no quick release or anything like that. Plus the gear we jumped in those days had no riser covers, less secure brake systems, no AADs and sometimes not even Three Ring releases.

And you then either built up you neck muscles or you could really hurt yourself on openings because all the weight was so far off the center line. I remember being so initially afraid of that I'd grab the helmet with both hands after I deployed. The only improvement I made to that first camera helmet was when Carl Boenish suggested I drill another small hole in it so I could route the shutter release wire inside the helmet, down under my chin strap, and then into my jumpsuit. He even cut and soldiered the wire for me after I made the hole.

But when I look at the low profile store bought camera helmets available today and the tiny light weight video cameras I don't think most people need 300 jumps to jump one. No wires and not really needing a ring sight is a big plus too. I'd stay with 500 jumps for shooting Tandems and AFF as that's commercial, or professional, skydiving. But if only fun jumping with a few friends I think you can start sooner.

And since people are all jumping with helmets nowadays that part is not a big change. For me just having that big bowl on my head was freaking me out.

I won't go as far as saying a 100 jumps is all right. But that's just because of the prevailing attitudes. If someone goes in at 100 jumps wearing a camera, for whatever reason, the camera would automatically get at least part of the blame. But I know by the time you get to around 100 jumps most people can walk and chew, at least, a little gum. And all they have to do is turn the camera on in the plane, give themselves a good gear check, and go. If they get some usable footage great, if not, it's no big deal.

So just to be on the safe side I'd say somewhere between a 101 and 299 jumps, under the right circumstances, would be okay to start wearing a modern camera helmet.

Now watch all the camera pros jump all over me, but don't let 'em fool you. They'll just want to protect their little piece of the skydiving dollar pie . . .

NickD

[billvon 2,400]

>But when I look at the low profile store bought camera helmets available
>today and the tiny light weight video cameras I don't think most people need
>300 jumps to jump one.

I think this is true - but also misleading.

The biggest danger of jumping a camera is not snag hazards - it's lack of awareness. When you are jumping a camera your awareness is funnelled through that ringsight, and you are mentally "in a different place." You need enough instinctive awareness in freefall that you can ignore the stuff you usually do (keep track of altitude, avoid collisions, clear your airspace before you open etc) and still have it happen unconsciously. And while some 100-jump people have that instinctive awareness, a lot don't. Heck, some people with 200 jumps don't have it either, but the extra jumps help a lot.

[LouDiamond 1]

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>But when I look at the low profile store bought camera helmets available
>today and the tiny light weight video cameras I don't think most people need
>300 jumps to jump one.

I think this is true - but also misleading.

The biggest danger of jumping a camera is not snag hazards - it's lack of awareness. When you are jumping a camera your awareness is funnelled through that ringsight, and you are mentally "in a different place." You need enough instinctive awareness in freefall that you can ignore the stuff you usually do (keep track of altitude, avoid collisions, clear your airspace before you open etc) and still have it happen unconsciously. And while some 100-jump people have that instinctive awareness, a lot don't. Heck, some people with 200 jumps don't have it either, but the extra jumps help a lot.

I could not agree with Bill more emphatically on this and hope those thinking about jumping a camera take this piece of information seriously.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[beowulf 1]

I agree with billvon. The big difference these days is that there are more people in the air at the same time. That distraction can cause problems.

[DSE 3]

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Now watch all the camera pros jump all over me, but don't let 'em fool you. They'll just want to protect their little piece of the skydiving dollar pie . . .

NickD

Not gonna jump all over you "because I want to protect my piece of the skydiving dollar pie" because frankly, I don't make enough with a video camera on my head in a month to match what I make in half a day on the ground...It's not enough "to protect."
However, I *have* seen on two occasions, people injured specifically because of a camera, and seen an extremely competent pro camera flyer (12,000 jumps) land in a very bad off because of the camera being a distraction.
200 jumps as a value suggests one _should_ have enough awareness to begin to consider managing all that a camera brings to the table. We've all met the 1000 jump jackass and the 100 jump wonder.
Technology does indeed make wearing the gear easier, but it does nothing to change the attitude, ability, awareness of the skydiver wearing it.
And...there have already been fatalities of sub-200 jump skydivers wearing cameras where a subjective debate may or may not reveal that the camera was or was not related to the incident. Even if the camera contributed only 10%, isn't that enough to give one pause? I mean....there is a thread in another forum about how Norman Kent's wife, Nicole, is unsafe and potentially going to crater because of an untied shoelace.

[NickDG 23]

Yes, everyone freaking over the shoelace got me too . . .

And speaking of Norman Kent, although it might be a bad example, he stuck his first camera on his head on his 12th jump.

What I was going for was today's camera gear could be worn without being a "thing" if you just put it on without the pressure of "gotta get the shot." But you guys are right. Newbies sometimes get distracted by a new pair of gloves.

Consider that limb I climbed out on sawed off . . .

NickD

[Tuna-Salad 0]

I don't consider it sawn off :) I wanted to know the same thing.... I've started taking my camera on the ride to altitude and leaving it with the pilot sometimes and these guys are right.. generally more attention gets paid to the camera but I don't forget my gear checks and safety either. I'm planning to go with a mount that is on the front of my helmet rather than the top or side and simply start recording several minutes before it's time to jump.. no need for bite switches n wires etc for me anyway. I figure the more stuff you start piling on the more there is to worry about and go wrong. Just my opinion and probably not worth much.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[DON321 0]

thanks for all the replys, sounds like i should wait a while longer.... to many cons not enough pros to wear a camera at this early stage of jumping....

[chrismgtis 0]

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>The biggest danger of jumping a camera is not snag hazards - it's lack of awareness. When you are jumping a camera your awareness is funnelled through that ringsight, and you are mentally "in a different place."

In my opinion, when you first start jumping with a camera you shouldn't be using a ring sight at all. Your attention should be on the dive as normal while getting used to flying with that added object on your head and not looking at it as a camera.

Right?

And you know, maybe even really look at how you are doing at pull time without a camera first. Make sure you are consistently pulling in the way that you should so you know you don't have any bad habits to get rid of that can cause a problem somewhere down the road and get your neck snapped on opening because of a snag.

I may not have the jump numbers to be knowledgeable, but I've put two years into this sport so far and I think hard on this kind of thing and I wish more people would do more than just gear up and go.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[Bill_K 0]

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What I was going for was today's camera gear could be worn without being a "thing" if you just put it on without the pressure of "gotta get the shot." But you guys are right. Newbies sometimes get distracted by a new pair of gloves.

Consider that limb I climbed out on sawed off . . .

NickD

Nick,

I'm in the middle if you will. I waited until I had 200+ before I put a video camera on. I still don't jump a still. I have recently, in the last 20-25 jumps started working with our S&TA and lurking his tandems to work on videoing. I have spent so much time ignoring that I even had a camera on that now I'm having to 're-learn' how to fly and get the shot. Thankfully he is letting me go jump with them when he does not have video and then coaching me on what I can do to improve my flying so that I'm first safe and second getting the shot. The one thing that I've learned so far is that getting a good shot is a LOT harder than it looks. BTW safety has not been an issue that has come up. He's mentioned some things not to do to remain safe, but nothing that I was doing so far.

Anyway, sorry if you feel that the limb has been cut away.

[billvon 2,400]

>Your attention should be on the dive as normal while getting used to flying with
>that added object on your head and not looking at it as a camera.

That's the problem; most people can't do that, ring sight or not.

You know how people act differently if there's a camera even if people tell them "forget about the camera?" The same thing happens on the other side of the camera.

[quade 3]

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Now watch all the camera pros jump all over me, but don't let 'em fool you. They'll just want to protect their little piece of the skydiving dollar pie . . .

Uh, yeah, jumping camera is so damn profitable and it's such easy money too. I mean, a person can make like one jump a day and he's good for the week. Livin' on easy street. Two jumps a day and . . . shit . . . he can probably retire before 50.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[hackish 8]

I'll jump on a limb here and I'm sure some will crap all over me. I think part of it is mindset. I've decided that I want to get involved in doing camera work. So that starts with reading, then talking to guys who do camera - we don't really have anyone you could consider "experienced" at this DZ, then going out and doing a series of jumps to "train for it". So far I've already done 30-40 of these "training jumps" most without a camera on my head. Of these I'd like another 40-50 before trying to do a video for a tandem.

In Canada they recommend 200 and a B license. I am hoping to arrive at both shortly but some people on the interweb say that you should be a C license and 500 jumps to fly camera. Sticking a number on the jumps is only a glance at what point a jumper may be at.

Not long ago I did some jumps with someone who had nailed a B license and 150 jumps in a couple of months. Good credit card at a big DZ. The jumper did a few scary things and couldn't track worth crap. But wait, they had the 150 jumps and a B! So what is a jump number and license? Doesn't automagically say what you can do safely.

-Michael

[Butters 0]

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The same thing happens on the other side of the camera.

I've recently begun wearing a camera helmet and have already noticed this ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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I am hoping to arrive at both shortly but some people on the interweb say that you should be a C license and 500 jumps to fly camera.

Those people are trying to protect their video slot at the DZ.

[pilotdave 0]

You're not bothered one bit by the fact that UPT requires 500 jumps before you're even supposed to jump with a tandem, plus 100 camera jumps if you want to film the tandem? Oh, and 100 jumps within the last year, even if you don't bring a camera along. You meet none of their requirements. I don't care what brand of tandem gear your DZ uses... I'm just curious if it's something you've thought about and just disregarded because you're better than average? I understand that you have people supporting you at your DZ. But you also need to know when to say no when other people are saying yes.

Dave

[AggieDave 6]

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But you also need to know when to say no when other people are saying yes.

This is some of the most important and sound advice I've seen on DZ.com in a long time. It applies to all other aspects of skydiving as well!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."