My experience with Atair

[Aviatrr 0]

I thought other people may be interested in my experience with Atair - the company that makes the Cobalt.. Several weeks ago, after hearing many good things about the Cobalt, I called and talked to 'em about a demo.. Since my work schedule is not really normal(I work a week, then have a week off - but away from home during my week on duty), I had to arrange a specific time to demo the canopy.. We talked dates, and I was told the canopy was available when I wanted it.. I sent in the demo form, called later that day, and was told they received it and the time frame would work..
Well, fast forward to yesterday.....the day I was expecting to receive the canopy.. I called 'em to find out when they had shipped it, so I would know when to expect it.. Well, no answer on numerous calls.. Turns out they don't answer the phone on Tues and Thurs - why not put that on the voice mail that answers? This morning, I talked to 'em there at Atair.. Turns out they sent the canopy elsewhere, and pushed back my demo time to the 20th(shipping date from NY) of this month.. So I would get it around the 22nd.. I go back to work on the 23rd.. That won't work.. I guess when I was told that I would be put on the schedule for the dates I requested(since the schedule was empty at that time), it really meant I would get the canopy then if nobody more important asked for it..
Why would I order a $1400 canopy from a company that can't even carry through with a demo date they told me they would - or AT LEAST call me and tell me they had to change it?! I have heard lots of good things about the Cobalt, and some bad about Atair's customer service.. I figured I would give it a shot, see what I thought.. Well, due to the poor customer service I received, this canopy is no longer a consideration.. I was planning to buy a canopy immediately, and buy another in a month or so when I order another rig.. Plus, there were 4 other people at my DZ that were gonna jump the Cobalt while I had it rather than wait for a demo of their own.. So Atair just lost 6 prospective sales, and will certainly not be getting any good comments from any of the 5 of us..
On the bright side, they made my canopy choice much easier.. I now have a Crossfire on order, and should receive it within a couple weeks.. My second rig will probably end up with a Crossfire, as well.. As I'm sure the other 4 people will end up with in their rigs.. It was basically down to the Crossfire and Cobalt for 4 of the 5 people.. Thanks Atair, you guys made the decision much easier..
Mike

[ramon 0]

It is hard to get a demo in reasonable time if you work odd hours. My friend Wane can't ever get a canopy.

[freeflir29 0]

What's that sound........Oh it's CobaltDan reeling and maoning from the kick in the nuts....LMAO. Look...Up in the Sky...It's CobaltDan....(Here I come to save the day)...wait....Nope...It's CobaltDan with a bag lock...Look Out!
I have a customer service story for you. Skykat gear shop. Called them Tues around 11 AM. Talked with John about a reserve they had. He confirmed it was in stock and got all the info. In about 2 hrs I recieved an e-mail from UPS with the shipping info. It showed up on time on Thurs and if I have any problems or just decide I dont want it. I can ship it back for a full refund less shipping. Tony is the shit!
"I've got pieces of corn in my crap bigger than him" -Fat Bastard
Clay

[cderham 0]

What size were you planning on demoing?
Chris

[freefallfreak 0]

freeflir29,
I ordered a Tonysuit and a new Javalin (matching) from Tony at Skykat last year...best service I ever had...I got both at the same time and exactly when promised...Yeah, Tony is cool...
FFF

[Aviatrr 0]

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I have a customer service story for you. Skykat gear shop. Called them Tues around 11 AM. Talked with John about a reserve they had. He confirmed it was in stock and got all the info. In about 2 hrs I recieved an e-mail from UPS with the shipping info. It showed up on time on Thurs and if I have any problems or just decide I dont want it. I can ship it back for a full refund less shipping. Tony is the shit!

Skykat rocks.. I have dealt with them a few times, excellent results every time.. There are a few specific dealers that I deal with when I need something.. Skykat, Rigs&Things, and Square 1.. Skykat and Rigs&Things are both excellent places and will bend over backwards to help - it's a tie as to which I think is best.. Square 1 is not far behind - only behind because of the fact that they're on the total opposite coast, so delivery takes forever or costs a lot more..
Does this mean that you're getting rid of that hankerchief reserve for something of decent size?! Mike

[Aviatrr 0]

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What size were you planning on demoing?

150.. If everything I head about 'em regarding speed/size was true, I probably would have ordered a 135 or 120.. I wanted to be able to compare the Cobalt 150 directly with a Spinneto 150 and Crossfire 149 - all loaded about 1.45.. Instead, I ordered a Crossfire 139(picked one from the stocklist that's ready to ship), and there's a chance I may take advantage of Icarus 30 day guarantee and send it back for a 129.. I haven't jumped the 139 yet, but I have jumped a 149..
Mike

[freeflir29 0]

"Does this mean that you're getting rid of that hankerchief reserve for something of decent size?! "
YES!!!! I got a PD176R. (wanted the 193 but I dont think it would fit) Believe me, that old reserve definately lived up to it's name. I had reservations about flying it...LOL
"I've got pieces of corn in my crap bigger than him" -Fat Bastard
Clay

[cderham 0]

I jump a spinletto 150 as well with a close wing loading to yours. I demo'd a 139 crossfire last weekend and was not happy with the flying at that wingloading. I then jumped a buddies 109 and liked the response but was dropping out of the sky. I like being able to get back from long spots being a freeflier where RW groups exit first. I am going to demo a 119 Crossfire and 120 Cobalt. That is my oppinion on the 139 Crossfire that I jumped. Hopefully you will enjoy yours. If not don't be afraid to try 119 along with the 129.
Chris

[Slappie 9]

Can you post the websites please? if they have any?
Thanks, still a student but have to know what I'm gunna spend or ask Santa Clause for Christmas.... The Easter Bunny let me down this year so scr#w him!!
Blue Skies!http://www.geocities.com/scollins77057/index.html

[Aviatrr 0]

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I jump a spinletto 150 as well with a close wing loading to yours. I demo'd a 139 crossfire last weekend and was not happy with the flying at that wingloading. I then jumped a buddies 109 and liked the response but was dropping out of the sky. I like being able to get back from long spots being a freeflier where RW groups exit first. I am going to demo a 119 Crossfire and 120 Cobalt. That is my oppinion on the 139 Crossfire that I jumped. Hopefully you will enjoy yours. If not don't be afraid to try 119 along with the 129.

Well, here's how I look at it.. I can get myself a Crossfire 139 in about a week.. If I'm not happy with that size, I can call 'em within 30 days and tell 'em what size I want.. I can then keep the 139 until my new canopy comes in, then go trade.. Can't beat that deal.. At my home DZ, there are people jumping Crossfires in every stock size from 99 to 129, so I could probably borrow one for a few jumps to see which size would be best..
I am a freeflier as well, so I know what the long spot thing is all about.. One of my home DZ video guys is sponsored by Icarus, and jumps a Crossfire 99 at about 1.8 and a 72 at 2.5.. He normally does video for tandems, so his spot is even longer than freefliers.. He dumps at 3-3.5k most of the time.. He has no problem making it back, so I don't think I will either..
I'll just have to wait til I get the canopy and see what I think of that specific size.. If it's too big, I'll send it back for a smaller Crossfire..
Mike

[freeflir29 0]

"Can you post the websites please"
Skykat.com
Tony's wife Kate answers the e-mail usually and John or Tony does the phones. Good people and they will answer any questions you have. I have posted this before but I'll do it again. I walked in one day to talk with Tony about buying a canopy. I was asking about a Hornet. He sent me back outside to talk with someone at the 82nd club about one they had for sale used. Trust me. Tony will make sure you get the best deal even if it means sending you somewhere else.
"I've got pieces of corn in my crap bigger than him" -Fat Bastard
Clay

[flyhi 24]

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Tony's wife Kate answers the e-mail usually and John or Tony does the phones.

Ordered a frap hat, Time Out, and Altimeter from Kate over the phone and she actually sounded interested about a dumbass cross country I did the weekend prior. She may not have been, but at that point in my life (horribly painful breakup with the main squeeze and low on beer at the same time) that meant a lot to me. I will use them again. And everything showed up in a very reasonable time.

[freeflir29 0]

"she actually sounded interested"
Thats cause Kate is a really cool chic. Unfortunately for you she is very taken....LMAO
P.S. Just dont do stupid things on the DZ. She goes from 0-Bitch faster than a Falcon 235 opening! She's a hell of a skydiver too.
"I've got pieces of corn in my crap bigger than him" -Fat Bastard
Clay

[wildblue 4]

hey, I'll chime in on Skykat too. I"ve ordered a bunch of stuff from there, always had great service. I ordered a complete rig from them too. There was a bit of a screw up on that, but they said "just jump that one, be gentle with it and we'll get it right as soon as possible" even shipped the correct version overnight and saturday delievery to make me happy.
Speaking of which... I should probably send the old one back now... oops! Tony and Kate are on my "To buy from" list (of course, along with Lisa aka skybytch)

[weid14 0]

My teammate had a similar experience, he put about 12 jumps on my 139, lost his Velocity (cut away) and jumped someone else's 119 for a few jumps. He bought a 129. (he was flying a stiletto 150 btw). Overall he liked the way the 139 handled vs teh 150 siletto, but he likes to go fast. Did you jump canopies with the "B" line mod? (you can tell if the B is cascaded or not - no cascade is the new mod)

[cderham 0]

The 139 I jumped was one of the first one's made. It is Demo gear from the Gear shop at my home DZ. The 109 I jumped is probably 6 months old. So I am assuming the 139 was the old lines and the 109 was the new lines. My thoughts on the 139 was it was sluggish. The landing flare was to deep for my liking. I felt like I had to almost bring the toggles to my knees to get it to stop. The 109 was alot better. The toggles were alittle deeper in the flare but due to the speed I was creating I was able to pop it up at the end of my front riser turn
Chris

[cobaltdan 0]

mike,
you left a series of messages on our off day. i spoke to you at the end of the day and
explained that heather (operations manager) or leslie would contact you first thing in the morning
in reference to the demo ship date. i also explained that the tentative ship date given when you submit the demo form is just that, tentative. if we receive the canopy back late from the person in line before you the schedule changes accordingly. if we need to check or repair a demo the schedule changes accordingly.
demos are shiped in order of requests. we do not cut the line by slipping in "more important people".
i'm sorry you view this as bad customers service, we view it as being fair and organized.
note, almost all of our distributors have 3 of thier own cobalt demos separate from our demo program. dealer list is on our web site www.extremefly.com
in speaking with leslie (whom you spoke with today). she relayed you were extremely irate that you could not have the demo now, she offered to try to do you a favor and work something out given your personal schedule and was told to forget it.
sincerely,
daniel preston
atair aerodynamics
www.extremefly.com
718-596-8641

[freeflir29 0]

Dan...When did you guys know you wouldn't be able to ship the Demo on time? Seems a little notice and an explanation of the circumstances ahead of time would have solved this whole problem before it got started. Just my $0.02
"I've got pieces of corn in my crap bigger than him" -Fat Bastard
Clay

[wildblue 4]

Holy high-speed opening Dan! (way off topic here, I know)
Just got that CD you sent out and it was very cool to watch (although it did make my CD player make some really odd buzzing noise) Can't wait to demo one of these!
But seriously, on those openings in a sit and headdown, you did nothing special to the pack job??
Ok.. back to the topic for a second.. I hope everyone understands what Dan said, sometimes they can't control timing issues (gets returned late, gets lost by UPS, needs fixed, etc). They probably could have called and said "hey, it's not coming when we said it was gonna come" but most people don't have funky work hours like that, so they probably didn't think it was that big of a deal.

[DZBone 0]

Just my two cents here, as I am also trying to decide between Cobalt and Crossfire, and also considering the Samurai.
Of the three canopies, the Cobalt was the only demo I was even able to get. Yes, it came a couple of days after the date we had originally discussed, but it came. So far, I haven't even been able to get Big Sky to return my emails. And there don't seem to be any demo Crossfire 149's where I happen to be.
I think that all these companies are struggling to get stuff out as fast as they can, but with popularity comes operational difficulties. These are definitely things to take into account. I mean, if you are having trouble pre-sales, imagine what things would be like post-sales. So far, having Dan here in the forums (and actively addressing questions) is a huge plus. A couple of days delay getting a demo out doesn't seem too bad, although a message on the voice mail about the off days will go a long way (or better yet, having a service to answer calls when no one's around).
Carl

[cobaltdan 0]

point taken about the message, it now states tuesdays and thursdays its voice mail only.
this is required during the season height. tuesdays and thursdays our office personel are able to
concentrate on shipping, receiving, billing, ad design, video, etc.. uninterupted. this is key as all the other days the phone rings off the hook.
additionally this gives me uninterupted time for design work.
as far as a call in advance to let someone know the demo is late. scheduled shipping date is tentative and a phone call is placed just prior to shipping to ensure the person will be expecting the demo. this works best, as if a demo is late we usually do not know when it will arrive only that it is late.
we maintain over 30 demos (excluding our dealers demo programs). keeping them actively in play is a primary focus of atair, as on average 8 out of 10 demos become a sale.
we have a great staff. intelligent, tallented, and they all go out of their way. definately not people that leave work undone because it is 5pm. the original post in this thread trully upset me.
sincerely,
dan
atair

[Aviatrr 0]

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you left a series of messages on our off day. i spoke to you at the end of the day and
explained that heather (operations manager) or leslie would contact you first thing in the morning
in reference to the demo ship date. i also explained that the tentative ship date given when you submit the demo form is just that, tentative. if we receive the canopy back late from the person in line before you the schedule changes accordingly. if we need to check or repair a demo the schedule changes accordingly.

Yes, I left messages on your off day - but when I left those messages, how was I supposed to know it was your off day? It seems you have addressed that with the new message you said you put up, but it certainly wasn't that way when I called.. Yes, you said somebody would contact me first thing in the morning, and they started at 0930.. I called well after 11am since I hadn't heard from anybody..
When I first submitted the demo form(and spoke to somebody in the office PRIOR to filling it out and faxing it in), I was told that there was nobody scheduled for that particular canopy after it got back from the person who had it at that time - that person was Carl, right? I'm curious - when did you guys receive it? I also initially explained my work schedule, and that I would need the canopy during one of the weeks that I am off duty.. I didn't say I had to have it any specific week, but I was told it was available a couple weeks from the date I called, so that's when I expected it.. After faxing the form, I called and asked if they received it, and I was told that the date would not be a problem..
If that had changed, a simple phone call telling me so would've done wonders.. I may not have been happy about not getting it that week, but I would've understood.. However, not so much as a phone call..

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demos are shiped in order of requests. we do not cut the line by slipping in "more important people".

I'm really interested in what happened, then.. Why exactly was it unavailable? It was supposedly going to be at your facility for over a week from the time Carl sent it back to the time it should've been shipped out to me...yet, the date that it was going to be 'tentatively' shipped to me was pushed back 6 days.. As I had previously explained, my work schedule would not have allowed me to jump it(or even receive the shipment) at that time..

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note, almost all of our distributors have 3 of thier own cobalt demos separate from our demo program. dealer list is on our web site www.extremefly.com

Of the 4 in Florida, 3 of them stated they do not have demo canopies.. The other(Mike G.) didn't have any because he sent them to a kid that ran a college skydiving club, and he went in on a bad birdman jump, and he hasn't been able to retrieve them..

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in speaking with leslie (whom you spoke with today). she relayed you were extremely irate that you could not have the demo now, she offered to try to do you a favor and work something out given your personal schedule and was told to forget it.

I certainly was not happy with the situation.. Like I said, had I received ANY kind of notification that what I was told previously would not happen, things would be much different.. How was I supposed to know that they would call me prior to shipping? If I had known that, it would've made me question things earlier, and I would have called to ask.. She did offer to arrange a different demo date, but I elected not to do that.. It would've been at least another several weeks before that could've worked - and that's if the canopy was available at that time.. I was waiting for this canopy so that I could make my decision between a Cobalt or Crossfire, and order my choice immediately.. This situation made the decision for me.. Like I said before, why would I spend $1400 on a canopy from a company that can't carry through with what they told me - OR AT LEAST contact me and tell me there was a change? One of the two isn't at all unreasonable..
Everybody that I spoke with there was very nice, and seemed to want to help.. Maybe I shouldn't call it 'bad' customer service, but just a lack of customer service.. Either way, my first experience was certainly not a good one.. Who knows, maybe I'll try again when it's time for my next canopy..
Mike

[Aviatrr 0]

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A couple of days delay getting a demo out doesn't seem too bad, although a message on the voice mail about the off days will go a long way (or better yet, having a service to answer calls when no one's around).

I agree - a couple of days delay is no big deal.. The big deal was that when things changed, no initiative was taken to tell me, even though they knew(or at least had been told) about my unique work schedule.. Also, when I called before, I was told the canopy would be back long before it was scheduled to be sent to me and there was nobody on the list between yourself and me.. I have to wonder when that changed, and why a phone call or e-mail was too much trouble..
My only experience with Atair was not a good one.. That, on top of some other complaints I've heard about Atair, left a very bad taste in my mouth.. I decided not to wait several more weeks to demo the Cobalt, but to buy another canopy instead.. Several people I jump with are not too excited about my experience, either, and have made choices based on that..
Mike

[FallinWoman 1]

I would like to offer an opinion in support of Atair.
I myself have not demoed a Cobalt because I am too much of a newbie to skydiving.
However, many people at my DZ have demo-ed them, including one of my good friends. The demo canopies came in when expected. The second batch of demos (which was a tiny one!) also came in right when expected.
One girl who bought one had hers arrrive early.
One guy who bought one had not recieved his as of last weekend, but it was not expected in until this week, I think.
Everyone involved has raved about the helpfulness of Atair and the ease of demo-ing and purchasing from them.
I would hope that anyone thinking of buying a Cobalt would give the company a chance for themselves and not reply on one person's less than wonderful experience. I would like to think that your displeasure, Mike, is the exception rather than the norm.
Just my .02
Anne