400 foot "dummies"

[mjosparky 3]

I held off posting about this until after the election. I thought it would be a bit too inflammatory considering how PC my posts usually are.
It is my understanding that a group of USPA members approached the BOD requesting a waiver for the 2,000 foot minimum pack opening rule. They wanted to jump for 400 feet. Their claim was they would be using “special” gear and that they have “special” skills and talents that allow this to be done safely.

It does not take any “special” skills, talent or equipment to exit a low altitudes. I spent over 20 years throwing test dummies out at 500 feet and I guarantee they were just that, dummies. It takes just over 5 seconds to travel 400 feet and 6 seconds to go 500. The last 2.5 to 3 seconds don’t count because it is too late to do anything productive. You go out either on static line or C&P and from then on you are cargo. No skills or talent needed. Of the hundreds of drops I made from that altitude I would guess about 10% went in. Just for grins do the math on USPA membership if this was allowed for all. Membership around 31,000, say only 10% try this. That would be 310 wouldn’t make it.

Oh well, just something to think about.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Scoop 0]

What about the TSOd BASE rig?

Many BASE jumpers handle sub 400 feet exits and they don't lose 10%... and they don't have horizontal speed when they exit either.

[antonija 0]

My opinion is that if anyone wants to open low, it's their choice to do so. They should just make sure to tell everyone else that this was not skydiving (with all it's regualtions and limitations) but their own version of playing chicken with the planet.

P.S.: Planet wins each and every time :p

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[format 0]

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Membership around 31,000, say only 10% try this. That would be 310 wouldn’t make it.

It doesn't mean you'd try it, or me.

and what's with the math? 10% is 3100
or did you mean 1% - 310?

What goes around, comes later.

[Scoop 0]

The way things are nowadays

[dragon2 0]

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what's with the math?

what's with your reading skills?

31000 jumpers of which 10% might try of which 10% might not make it

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[format 0]

I am a dork

I apologize.

What goes around, comes later.

[kimemerson 7]

The TSO just makes it legal. Otherwise it's a BASE rig like any other.

I'm not sure how I come down on this. As USPA members I think it makes sense to leave well enough alone. But why must these jumps be involved with USPA? As members, are all our jumps under the critical eye of USPA? Can't we on occasion make non USPA jumps without risking membership? Yes. We can jump at non-member DZs. So what's to stop these guys from using a non-member a/c? Pull altitude is a USPA BSR. FAA isn't even involved so long as no one gets hurt. (USPA is self governing because we precede and then supersede the FAA. We satisfy FAA minimums. USPA is generally stricter than FAA). And if I'm wrong that we can do non-USPA jumps without risking membership and I could well be - then I would suggest that doing these sort of demos requires a certain dedication and that maybe these guys should just leave USPA if their passion is where it needs to be if they intend to pull this thing off.

As for the thing itself, the fact is that when we do demos the attraction for the crowd is in part because they either thrill to do it themselves or they expect something could go terribly wrong. It is our responsibility to assure they never get the chance to witness anything going wrong on every demo we do. Still... there's that chance. It is hoped that anyone proposing to deploy at 400' will have an extensive record of preparation. That deaths and other bugs have been considered and worked out prior to showcasing what could otherwise be public suicide.

From our perspective, demos are different than DZ jumping and the adrenaline rush is greater, the pucker factor is more pronounced. And that's only because we too know the shit could hit the fan. Yeah, part of demo lust is the make-them-feel-good thing, but it's a rush to do them. This isn't a desk job. We're the junkies in this equation, after all.

Another thing to ponder is that a great number of advances in anything we can name come about through the insights of the gifted, the execution of the skilled, the willingness of the insane and the mistakes of the unprepared. Without these efforts this conversation wouldn't be taking place because the notion of jumping out of an airplane would have been put to rest once it was conceived. Some nut had to go first, Bless his soul!

So rather than condemn the 400' gang outright, why not allow that if someone can think of it, it can be done and work toward a resolution? Are we saying a sub 500' opening will never be reasonable? Ever? You should live so long.

[Scoop 0]

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The TSO just makes it legal. Otherwise it's a BASE rig like any other.

That is my point...

[ozzy13 0]

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They wanted to jump for 400 feet. Their claim was they would be using “special” gear and that they have “special” skills and talents that allow this to be done safely.

Just so you know. They requested to EXIT from 2000ft. and deploy BY 400ft. Also using wing suits!!!

Not that makes much difference in my opinion. I just wanted you to have all the facts

This has been discussed in the forum for months

Right here

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3389937;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

And here

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3360755;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[chuckakers 370]

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What about the TSOd BASE rig?

Many BASE jumpers handle sub 400 feet exits and they don't lose 10%... and they don't have horizontal speed when they exit either.

Using a TSO'd base rig merely means that the rig has a certificated (the FAA's word, not mine) reserve. If you have almost any kind of mal at 400 feet, the reserve would be useless.

Having a reserve doesn't make all stupid shit safe.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[skypuppy 1]

a great number of advances in anything we can name come about through the insights of the gifted, the execution of the skilled, the willingness of the insane and the mistakes of the unprepared.



Great quote man. Almost better than hold my beer and watch this....

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[kimemerson 7]

I've always meant to have inscribed on a plaque the line a newly minted AFF JM made on his way back from a student jump. The look on the JM's face said SOMETHING had happened, though we could see the student was ok, walking back on his own. But we could tell there had to be a story there somewhere.
As the JM walked back, he muttered more to himself than anyone, "Wow, I thought I covered that." Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance", as dad used to tell me.

[likestojump 3]

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What about the TSOd BASE rig?

Many BASE jumpers handle sub 400 feet exits and they don't lose 10%... and they don't have horizontal speed when they exit either.

Using a TSO'd base rig merely means that the rig has a certificated (the FAA's word, not mine) reserve. If you have almost any kind of mal at 400 feet, the reserve would be useless.

Having a reserve doesn't make all stupid shit safe.

ya know, you see what you want to see.

I see "BASE RIG". You see "TSO'd"

BASE canopies freepacked properly into a proper BASE container cannot be matched by a dbaged canopy for opening speed and heading.

400ft opening from a 2000ft WS exit is done ALL THE TIME, just go to Switzerland and you'll see it dozen times a day during the season, hell even in the winter.

It's all a matter of proper gear useage and configuration and CURRENCY in the discipline.

on a final note, stop being narrow minded.

[Andy_Copland 0]

I think people have a hard time understanding it because they dont recognise the gear used and have never used it themselves, so have a natural fear of it.

I see BASE rig and as ilikestojump said, its done pretty much thousands of times a year.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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It does not take any “special” skills, talent or equipment

Thats just so narrow minded. This is not 20 years ago.

Today its done with special equipment and different packing techniques.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[chuckakers 370]

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What about the TSOd BASE rig?

Many BASE jumpers handle sub 400 feet exits and they don't lose 10%... and they don't have horizontal speed when they exit either.

Using a TSO'd base rig merely means that the rig has a certificated (the FAA's word, not mine) reserve. If you have almost any kind of mal at 400 feet, the reserve would be useless.

Having a reserve doesn't make all stupid shit safe.

ya know, you see what you want to see.

I see "BASE RIG". You see "TSO'd"

BASE canopies freepacked properly into a proper BASE container cannot be matched by a dbaged canopy for opening speed and heading.

400ft opening from a 2000ft WS exit is done ALL THE TIME, just go to Switzerland and you'll see it dozen times a day during the season, hell even in the winter.

It's all a matter of proper gear useage and configuration and CURRENCY in the discipline.

on a final note, stop being narrow minded.

I'm not being narrow-minded. Pitching a pilot chute at 400 feet doesn't leave enough time to use a reserve if needed, regardless of how the main was packed or what kind of container it's put in. Simply adding a reserve to a rig to get it legal doesn't make 400 foot openings any safer than doing 400 foot openings without a reserve.

I'm not kicking base jumpers that want to squeeze in all the freefall possible. My point is that adding a reserve to a rig and then dumping so low that you can't use it to save your life is the same as not having a reserve to begin with.

My comment about "stupid shit" was relative to skydiving, not base jumping. It is generally accepted in skydiving that deploying too low to use a reserve if needed is "stupid shit".

On a final note, base jumping is more dangerous than skydiving ALL THE TIME, even in the winter. That's not narrow-minded, it's true.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Andy_Copland 0]

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Pitching a pilot chute at 400 feet doesn't leave enough time to use a reserve if needed

Well thats true. Adding the reserve is just their way of getting around the legal issues.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[mjosparky 3]

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Thats just so narrow minded. This is not 20 years ago.

If you say so. But the issue of opening altitude was sorted out over 20 years ago because jumpers kept dying. I have not seen anything that will alter that fact today. Do you really think that you can exit at 2,000 feet and consistently deploy at 400 feet? You are a better man than I am.

I think you might be confusing BASE with skydiving. You do know that they are different?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

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This has been discussed in the forum for months

I am aware of that. If you read the complete post you will see the reason I am posting it now.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Andy_Copland 0]

So why aren't 10% of people doing it all over Europe dying?

Regardless of leaving a rock or an aircraft, when flying a wingsuit and pulling at 400ft you are in the same territory.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I think the question USPA needs to ask is what's in it for them. We are talking about a commercial enterprise who wants to change the rules for their show. If USPA acquiesces will skydiving in the US benefit? We know there is an increased chance of bad publicity, but if that doesn't happen will the sport get a positive hit. Personally I don't think so. The industry has done well over the last twenty years or so by demonstrating skydiving as an exciting, yet reasonably safe activity. Those who want to push the image of it being a crazy, death defying act for ultra cool heroes are free to do so, but should not have USPA sanction. JMHO

[likestojump 3]

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Thats just so narrow minded. This is not 20 years ago.

If you say so. But the issue of opening altitude was sorted out over 20 years ago because jumpers kept dying. I have not seen anything that will alter that fact today. Do you really think that you can exit at 2,000 feet and consistently deploy at 400 feet? You are a better man than I am.

I think you might be confusing BASE with skydiving. You do know that they are different?

Sparky

gear and knowledge of 20 years ago is extremely inferior to that of today.

Also you may not be thinking of all the other factors involved.

a meatrocket on their belly is burning up 176ft/sec of altitude. a meat rocket in their wingsuit is doing 1/3 that (if not less), or 58ft/sec. Deployment, if initiated at full speed will be happening diagonally (read - LESS vertically). and will yield a canopy at a much higher altitude. Lets also not forget the gear advantages for fast and precise deployment.

lastly, the only TECHNICAL difference here is the exit platform, which, once in full glide is absolutely irrelevant. you can call it a BASE jump from an aircraft, a skydive with BASE gear, a stupid trick, whatever you want, but don't say that it cannot be done consistently - cuz it is done so ALL THE TIME, IT'S A FACT !

[jakee 1,257]

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I'm not being narrow-minded. Pitching a pilot chute at 400 feet doesn't leave enough time to use a reserve if needed, regardless of how the main was packed or what kind of container it's put in. Simply adding a reserve to a rig to get it legal doesn't make 400 foot openings any safer

You're still seeing what you want to see. No one said the reserve would make it safer, the fact that it's a BASE rig makes it safer.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[chuckakers 370]

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I'm not being narrow-minded. Pitching a pilot chute at 400 feet doesn't leave enough time to use a reserve if needed, regardless of how the main was packed or what kind of container it's put in. Simply adding a reserve to a rig to get it legal doesn't make 400 foot openings any safer

You're still seeing what you want to see. No one said the reserve would make it safer, the fact that it's a BASE rig makes it safer.

I see the entire situation. My point isn't that a base rig is or is not safer than a skydiving rig. My point is that no matter what kind of rig you use, you don't have time to get a reserve out if you begin a main deployment at 400 feet.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX