Germain's article on the recession

[zipplewrath 1]

I found Brian's article at DZ.com on the recession and skydiving interesting, but probably not for the reasons that Brain wanted. Although I understand his framing the subject in terms of fear, at least fear of social rejection, he based it upon an assumption which I haven't shared for some time. Of course it is possible to reframe this point of view as grounded in fear, although at least in my case it would be a "well founded" fear.

The presumption upon which he operates is that we should all be some sort of "ambassador for skydiving" and be out stumping and advocating for the sport so as to attract business to the sport in these tough economic times. He couches it in the form of helping other people get past their fears, and helping them overcome the excuse of the economic times as a reason for succumbing to their fears.

I see it vastly different. This sport is not for everyone. Quite the opposite, it is for a minority of people. Oh, yeah, tandem has a potential to serve a much larger audience. But the sport, the folks who will actually choose to join our community, is a small slice of the population. And it is not for me to "tempt" folks into joining us. If someone has the interest, that insatiable curiosity to experience this, then yeah, I'll share all day long. I'll go to the DZ with them, show them gear, let them watch some video. But there is a danger in attempting to convince someone. It is a fine line between enticing and tempting. Tempting is more about encouraging someone to do something they might not otherwise choose.

Any "fear" I might have about advocating for the sport is grounded in this impression. It's not fear of social rejection (quite the opposite, I like that look that say's "yer nuts dude".) It is the fear that neither the sport, nor the person is served by me trying to paint a picture of skydiving that they can understand. If they don't understand it on their own, far be it from me to try to "paint the picture". First off, I'm probably a lousy artist, but furthermore art is rarely understood by anyone BUT the artist. People will bring their own attitudes to skydiving, and the only people I want joining us, are those who understand what they see, not those who will try to make it conform to something they can understand.

Skydiving; you could die having this much fun. And unless you understand what that means, I don't think I should try to tempt you to join.

[riggerrob 561]

Good points

I tend to look at this from the perspective of a professional skydiver trying to continue making a living in tough times.

Don Balch (former DZO of Hemet, Claifornia) used to turn recessions to his advantage by talking potential tandem students into taking mini-vacations at the dropzone.
IOW If they could not afford a week at a resort in Mexico, at east they could treat themselves to a tandem.

[zipplewrath 1]

I suspect Brian sees it much as you do, and so do alot of folks trying to make a living in skydiving. It is that intersection where the sport and business cross in which this choice between enticing and tempting can face a professional. Mr. Balch would seem to be trying to redirect someone already onboard to make a skydive. Mr. Germain seemed to be addressing those who have not yet come to the community. That is where my "fear" lies. Is my enticement to "spread the word" to potential members of the community, or to make money off the next guy that comes along.

[DSE 3]

It's somewhat easy for our sport to take advantage of a recession; people don't go as far from home, but they still want fun.
It's basic marketing. 6Flags in Utah is doing exactly that market pitch (why go somewhere else when you can have fun right here?)

[AndyBoyd 0]

Germain means well, but he doesn't seem to understand the basic problem. In difficult economic times, people on average have less money to spend. Luxuries like skydiving get cut from folks' budgets first. Not all DZ are suffering, though. My DZ, CSC, seemed to do pretty well last year. But my guess, and I admit that I have no hard numbers to back this up, is that overall skydiving is down like most other industries are right now. When the economy comes around, and it will eventually, the sport will come back up. No amount of talking up the sport will help when people can't pay the mortgage.

[humanflite 0]

Quote

Germain means well, but he doesn't seem to understand the basic problem. In difficult economic times, people on average have less money to spend. Luxuries like skydiving get cut from folks' budgets first. Not all DZ are suffering, though. My DZ, CSC, seemed to do pretty well last year. But my guess, and I admit that I have no hard numbers to back this up, is that overall skydiving is down like most other industries are right now. When the economy comes around, and it will eventually, the sport will come back up. No amount of talking up the sport will help when people can't pay the mortgage.

For some, skydiving is a luxury...

for others, it is a necessity

[skybytch 259]

Quote

No amount of talking up the sport will help when people can't pay the mortgage.

It might if we talk up the fact that many dz's allow jumpers to pitch tents and stay awhile...

[Ryno118 0]

I agree with you about the dangers of convincing people to skydive. most people when faced with a life of death emergency, will fall to pieces and panic/freeze. This is obviously a bad thing when faced with a mal. But I wish someone would of introduced me to skydiving earlier. I spent years trying to figer out what I wanted to do with my life intill I stumbled across a skydiving video on youtube and realised this is what I want to do. Even then I had to look up lots of forums and DZ web pages to understand how to become a skydiver. I think a bit more could be done to promote this amazing sport.

Live hard, Live fast, Die broke.
D.S. 118118

[CMiller 1]

Quote

It's somewhat easy for our sport to take advantage of a recession; people don't go as far from home, but they still want fun.

Well, here in SoCal, the closest DZ is an hour and a half away if you live in the LA area… COme to think of it, I've never lived closer than 60 minutes to a dropzone.

[zipplewrath 1]

The metaphysicists in the crowd would suggest that you "stumbled across" skydiving when you were ready for it. I have to admit, in my own case, my exposure was serendipitous in the sense that a classmate suggested it to me. The reality is that I was more than ready and his mere momentary suggestion "got the ball rolling" and the rest was definite, deliberate, effort on my part.

[DougH 270]

Quote

I agree with you about the dangers of convincing people to skydive. most people when faced with a life of death emergency, will fall to pieces and panic/freeze.

Says who? That is your ego talking! You were trained from jump one to handle emergencies using tried and true training methods. You don't have any special qualities that you were born with that the overal population lacks. The only real difference between you and joe blow whuffo is you want to spend a large percentage of your time and money jumping, and he doesn't give a damn.
I would argue that if skydiving was MANDATORY then a large majority of the population could be trained, starting with jump one, to handle skydiving and everything that comes along with it.

Sure there will be a percentage of people that lacked the mental or physical capacity to safely skydive, but I doubt it would be a very large percentage of the overall population.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[humbled1 0]

Quote

Quote

I agree with you about the dangers of convincing people to skydive. most people when faced with a life of death emergency, will fall to pieces and panic/freeze.

Says who? That is your ego talking! You were trained from jump one to handle emergencies using tried and true training methods. You don't have any special qualities that you were born with that the overal population lacks. The only real difference between you and joe blow whuffo is you want to spend a large percentage of your time and money jumping, and he doesn't give a damn.
I would argue that if skydiving was MANDATORY then a large majority of the population could be trained, starting with jump one, to handle skydiving and everything that comes along with it.

Sure there will be a percentage of people that lacked the mental or physical capacity to safely skydive, but I doubt it would be a very large percentage of the overall population.

I would have to agree with Ryno118. Even if we just stick to the individuals who actually decide to do the FJC and at least begin the path of becoming a skydiver. I took my FJC last March and there were 8 people in it. Since that year, I am the only one who got past level 3, the rest all quit. None of us got to jump the day of the FJC cuz of the wind, but I came back the next day and jumped, no one else did.

One guy from my FJC came back a few months later and did a tandem cuz he felt to uneasy about flying his own canopy. I was amazed to find out how small the percentage of people who do their FJC and actually get their A lic is. (I heard it is less than 10% but I may be wrong) Of course time and money is a factor for some, but I think most stop because they are not cut out for it.

I also don't think anyone can be convinced to try skydiving that has no interest in it at all.

Personally, I don't really try and convince people to try skydiving, I am not shy about telling them what I think about it, but it is definitely a personal decision.

"Tell ya the truth, I don't think this is a brains kind of operation."

[DougH 270]

You will note that I only addressed his comment that most people couldn't handle a life or death situation.

Having the capacity to skydive, and having the interest, desire, or means to do so are two seperate issues.

Just my opinion.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[riggerrob 561]

I was amazed to find out how small the percentage of people who do their FJC and actually get their A lic is. (I heard it is less than 10% but I may be wrong)

.....................................................................

Five percent (from FJC to A Certificate) is considered a good retention rate in the skydiving business.

The top ten percent of skydiving students will succeed no matter how they are treated.

The bottom of the pack/general public will never succeed, no matter how they are marketed, taught, cajoled, etc.

Marketting efforts should focus on the middle of the pack: people who are curious and have the potential to become decent skydivers with decent instruction.

[zipplewrath 1]

I'm curious why you would come to such a conclusion? Virtually every sport has folks who accel at it, and those that cannot achieve any level of competency. I'm not sure why you would think skydiving was any different. Fear alone would paralyze many people in skydiving. And unlike many sports, if you fail to master the basics, even once, it may be your only chance.

We may not be able to predetermine who will be successful or not. And there may be more folks with the capability than ever try. But again, that's almost assuredly true for any sport. That doesn't change the fact that there will be people for whom the demands of the sport are unacceptably excessive.

We are left with the only choice to allow people to "preselect" themselves in some sense, and then judge as best we can during training.

[DougH 270]

So you would agree that a majority of the human population lacks the capacity to be trained to deal with life or death situations?

Why did you come to the conclusion that we are so special and above average.

Do we have first jump courses because people showing up to skydive don't have any inherent ability that would allow us strap a rig on them and kick them out of a plane safely without training, or is it a consipiracy to take money from students who are already ready to jump?

Do a vast majority of students who have completed a FJC freeze up in fear on their first jump? If most people are incapable of dealing with life or death situations why don't a majority of our students freak out and freeze up?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[zipplewrath 1]

I think I would agree that the population is larger than you are thinking. Majority may be arguable. We aren't so much "special and above average" as we are "different and unique". Just as with any other sport, many (potentially most) folks won't demonstrate a particular flair for it. In skydiving, beyond just the FJC, that can be fatal.

Our students tend to self select. As such, we generally get the kinds of students who are very likely to be able to handle the demands of the sport. Between that, and some training and evaluation, we manage identify the people with the applicable skill set necessary.

[Ryno118 0]

People that freeze up in dangerous situations are not going to willingly put themselves into dangerous situations. And dealing with an dangerous situation doesn't make you special and above average. Its just a personality trait and just because people have different personalities, doesn't make them special and above average, just different. The way people react to threats is called the "Fight-or-flight response" and varies from person to person. But I take your point about being able to train people to deal with life or death situations. Soldiers always talk about how their "training kicked in" when asked how they dealt with a fire fight.

Live hard, Live fast, Die broke.
D.S. 118118

[adamx 0]

Quote

Do a vast majority of students who have completed a FJC freeze up in fear on their first jump? If most people are incapable of dealing with life or death situations why don't a majority of our students freak out and freeze up?

Most people who are prone to freaking out would never DREAM of doing that first AFF.

That'd be like going to a bodybuilding tryout and asking "If so many people in the USA are fat, out of shape, and grossly unhealthy, why aren't a majority of the people here overweight, lazy slobs?".. Because the lazy slobs aren't going to bother qualifying for the bodybuilding comp, just as the scare-dee cats aren't going to bother with skydiving.

just my opinion

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Well, here in SoCal, the closest DZ is an hour and a half away if you live in the LA area… COme to think of it, I've never lived closer than 60 minutes to a dropzone.

There is a ring of DZ around San Francisco, but all about 90-120 minutes away.

I envy the lucky bastards in San Diego. 30 minutes to acceptable diving in La Jolla, and it was only about 35 mins for my drive to Otay. I would do a lot more of each with that sort of proximity.

[mr_music11 0]

IMHO!! I do not have a degree in economics, but have a fundimental understanding of supply and demand.. that said.. I love skydiving.. although not for everybody, sometimes just info or the slight encouragment is enough to bring another person into this wonderfull! sport.. the more people getting in (hopefully staying in)hopefully means more people at my nearest DZ. The more people that are there.. the cheaper that jump tix can be sold for..(there goes that supply and demand thing)
Now, don't get me wrong Im not flaming anyone for sharing/not sharing, encouraging/not encouraging others to join.. it just happens to be in ME to share that passion in me that has so consumed my thoughts time and money. Regardless of whether that person ends up jumping or not. BUT yes Im tryin to make the money part of that equation as cheap as possible!! by enviting more to participate ) That being said.. blues skies to us all

If flying is piloting a plane.. then swimming is driving a boat. I know why birds sing.. I skydive.

[zipplewrath 1]

There is little evidence to suggest that larger DZ's are "cheaper" DZ's. Furthermore, I'm not sure you understand supply and demand. Increasing the number of jumpers at a DZ increases the demand. What happens to prices when demand increases? Furthermore, there is the market principal of "what the market will bear". I suspect you probably are more interested in having a large pool of people with which to jump, which is an admirable goal. Be careful, they paved paradise and put up a parking lot.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

What happens to prices when demand increases?

very complicated, since the capacity enters the equation (ie, can they fill a 182, a Pac, a KingAir, or an Otter).

[zipplewrath 1]

However, the principal being discussed postulates that increasing demand (with in fixed supply) will cause an increase in price.

[heavydude 0]

Its funny but I have overheard the Tandem guys here at a Socal DZ say that they have had some of the best months ever. Maybe economy has had a positive impact at some places ?