Would you jump without your AAD

[Orange1 0]

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When you make the decision to use an AAD, you are making that decision so that in the case of emergency, you might be saved. If you send it off to the mfg, you should consider why you chose to have one in the first place before you decide to jump without one. I was convinced to buy one by my boyfriend after some serious discussion about things that could go wrong in freefall, and people who have passed out after being kicked in the head and corked on, etc, and woken up in a tree because their cypres saved them.

What she said. I have a family and thus an obligation to make the sport as safe as I can for myself; while I would never rely on an AAD, it's a nice to have just in case i do get knocked unconscious one day.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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How about higher risk dives? Say bigways?

Been on a 48-way shot and a 36 way without one while on borrowed gear. Took three hard hits during the 48-way (gotta love being in the base aka the target). So, I guess that would be a yes.

Have you ever heard "If he just didn't have a Cypress he would be alive?"

What exactly is the point to this argument? That a select amount of people are device dependent? That they, in their personal observations, feel a dive may be a bit risky than others and want backup (you will fault them for this)? Everyone has a different level of risk assestment. I know you will never find me under a tiny crossbraced canopy going for long pond swoops - I like my pelvis and femur in one piece (I know I haven't hook it in, can't say that about others in this thread). However, many jumpers feel this is no big deal. A jump that someone feels is risky may be no big deal to you. Some will look at the history of jumps (like a 300+ way) and realize that they should learn from past accidents. Who are you, or anyone, to judge that they are device dependent or just being safe? How many times do we hear - you are responsible for yourself in this sport?

This whole debate is subjective. Those that feel they are right in their thoughts are obviously going to go on endlessly why they are in the right. But to fault someone because they want to be on the safe side? Would you look at a body on the ground that could have been saved by a Cypres and say "Well, at least we know he wasn't device dependent." What will satisfy you in this argument? I don't get your point at all. You continue to argue points but don't push thru anything. This is pointless and will run in circles until the personal attacks start.

If the person is dangerous and an obvious threat to the safety of the DZ in any form - then don't let them on the plane.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Ron 7]

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Have you ever heard "If he just didn't have a Cypress he would be alive?"

Nope..Ever heard "I'll be OK since I have a CYPRES?"

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What exactly is the point to this argument?

That people over ride the best saftey device they have (Their brains) and use a supposed saftey device to do things that they would never consider without it. By going on more dangerous jumps JUST because they have an AAD they negate the positive effects of the device. An AAD does not make an accident less likely. It can only effect the OUTCOME.

But it does not reduce the risks. And if a person is using an AAD as a permission slip to do more dnagerous things they are in fact being MORE dangerous since not everyone has an AAD and while Kallend may feel perfectly fine doing a 10way without an AAD, they guy he might knock out might not have one.

You could say "Thats to bad for him, tough luck." But I'd rather promote saftey, not buying AAD's.

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I don't get your point at all

My point is simple....Don't use an AAD as an excuse to do more dangerous jumps. Just becasue you may not agree does not make that any less sensible.

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If the person is dangerous and an obvious threat to the safety of the DZ in any form - then don't let them on the plane.

You can do that? not even an S&TA can do that.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,635]

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>My risk tolerance is none of your business.

By my count, you have posted your opinions on risk tolerance 65 times on this forum. Which is no problem; it's just an odd time to decide it's not anyone else's business.

Some people need to be told 66 times or even more before they get the message.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Conundrum 1]

All my jumps (besides student jumps) have been AAD-less. I JUST got my Cypres but haven't had it installed yet. It doesn't really bother me to jump without one, although it will be nice once I have it in my rig.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Have you ever heard "If he just didn't have a Cypress he would be alive?"

Nope..Ever heard "I'll be OK since I have a CYPRES?"

Yup, from a guy that didn't have one in his rig. I've only heard it as a joke. No one that I consider a friend has ever said it.

So, no one has died because of a Cypres. We have people alive because of them. Once again, if it keeps the stupid people alive I'm ok with that.

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By going on more dangerous jumps JUST because they have an AAD they negate the positive effects of the device. An AAD does not make an accident less likely. It can only effect the OUTCOME.

So it is ok for those that go on 'more dangerous' jumps without one (well, I guess it would be a good idea for Jeb if he tries to land his wingsuit)? Who is really the judge in what is considered more dangerous? Stand back and try not to post for a week or two. Just read the forums and take it all in. You will see that there is a pissing contest nearly every day of people saying something was too dangerous or stupid and others saying it wasn't. Only the ground gets to make that decision in the end.

Yes, there are device dependent people out there. Ok, now what? How large of the population is it? Does it truly propose a risk or is it speculation? If so, what is the way to fix it? Can it be fixed? Is this really one of the top three issues this sport needs to address?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Ron 7]

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Yes, there are device dependent people out there. Ok, now what?

Find out why.

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How large of the population is it?

It is small, but growing.

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Does it truly propose a risk or is it speculation?

If a person is on dives above their skill level...I would say it poses a risk.

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If so, what is the way to fix it? Can it be fixed?

Don't know. But ignoring it will not do anything.

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Is this really one of the top three issues this sport needs to address?

Not yet...But even Perris has seen the need to do something about it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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Not yet...But even Perris has seen the need to do something about it.

No, Perris saw a need to deal with people losing altitude awareness. As I said before, nothing in the Cypres saves list shows a correlation between dive difficulty and AAD fires.

[Ron 7]

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No, Perris saw a need to deal with people losing altitude awareness

Why did people loose altitude awareness?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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How much more proven do you need? If they person says they will not do something without an AAD that is in fact dependance.

Nope, no more than they won't jump without a reserve (or a parachute). Even if the FAA didn't require it, the vast majority would still do similar practices as now. I don't want to be a BASE jumper. The only jumps I see being worth the risk are El Cap and Half Dome, but I wouldn't risk all the lower skill ones to qualify myself to do these two. That's my call, and not "bad" or "good." I do hope someday those who do want to can legally do it again there.

I do solo scuba dives, sometimes at night, sometimes at 140ft. I like the freedom. But I'm not going to pretend that I'm safer because of it. Those who decide to always carry a cypres are accepting the fact that they may fail. Having humility in a dangerous, ego sport isn't a bad thing, esp in light of the last two weekends where we lost greats in the sport. I can't figure out what you and others really have against such a practice.

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Where you've failed is to prove that this is a bad thing.

People going on dives above their skill level since they have an AAD and think they will be safe is good?

I wish you could stick to one position, Ron. In post 92, we had this exchange where you indicated it was about doing risky dives, and nothing to do with skill. Now you're back on jumping past their ability.

K: And I thought the issue was that people were substituting AADs for appropriate skill
R: No, it has always been about people using the AAD as "pass" to do more dangerous stuff.

??

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No, by your own admission it is to dangerous for you. If you think that you will not pack well or that you must have an AADs ince you think you will fail in your emergency procedures it says TONS about how much you think the AAD will "save you" if you fail to perform.

I don't think I've seen anyone that was fully confident on their first pack jump. Quite the opposite in fact. While we survived 5 or 40 packjobs by others without a malfunction, this is our first. Why forego safety equipment that is already present and has no downsides? Many have suggested keeping the RSL at least until one has dealt with a malfunction (or have a reason to yank it). Until it happens, how do you know how well you will perform?

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Look have a nice day. It is clear that you depend on your AAD, and that you like it.

I see that as a saftey issue. You thinkthat buying one makes you safe.

I hope you don't drink and drive since you have airbags.

Polite fuckoffs work better without a closing 'have you stopped beating your wife' line, Ron. I do more mileage in a motorcycle that has no airbag, no steel cage, no seat belt.

I think they make jumpers safeR. And I think their record in saving lifes is so obvious that arguing against them does not contribute to safety.

You are device dependent, Ron. It's a gear sport. You're just quibbling at the edges.

[kelpdiver 2]

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No, Perris saw a need to deal with people losing altitude awareness

Why did people loose altitude awareness?

A great question! And one that has been totally ignored in this AAD discussion.

[Ron 7]

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Nope, no more than they won't jump without a reserve (or a parachute). Even if the FAA didn't require it, the vast majority would still do similar practices as now

Before reserves were required people still jumped.

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I can't figure out what you and others really have against such a practice.

I can't fiqure out how you and others can't see the clear FACTS that there are people who use an AAD to do more dangerous stuff.

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I wish you could stick to one position, Ron. In post 92, we had this exchange where you indicated it was about doing risky dives, and nothing to do with skill. Now you're back on jumping past their ability.

K: And I thought the issue was that people were substituting AADs for appropriate skill
R: No, it has always been about people using the AAD as "pass" to do more dangerous stuff.

There is no shift. If a person uses an AAD to go on more dangerous dives...No matter what skill level you want to put in there, it is about them doing something with an AAD that they would not do without it...Skill has nothing to do with it.

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I don't think I've seen anyone that was fully confident on their first pack jump. Quite the opposite in fact.

Good why depend on an AAD?

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In Reply To
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Look have a nice day. It is clear that you depend on your AAD, and that you like it.

I see that as a saftey issue. You thinkthat buying one makes you safe.

I hope you don't drink and drive since you have airbags.

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Polite fuckoffs work better without a closing 'have you stopped beating your wife' line, Ron. I do more mileage in a motorcycle that has no airbag, no steel cage, no seat belt.

Not a polite fuckoff...Simple statement that shows the same attitude in a different area. A dangerous situation (driving drunk, a dive that you think is too dangerous without an AAD) and once you add a device (Airbag, or AAD) you now accept the dangers.

Both driving drunk and dives you think are too dangeorus are situations....In one you think its OK (An AAD just to go on a dangerous jump) the other you don't (Driving drunk cause you have airbags).

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I think they make jumpers safeR.

See I don't...Safe is AVOIDING dangerous situations. An AAD will increase the chances of survival, but that does not make you safer.

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And I think their record in saving lifes is so obvious that arguing against them does not contribute to safety.

Show me one post where I argue AGAINST THEM? Go ahead time after time you say things then fail to follow through. Go ahead. Find it.

For the last time...Saftey is not doing stupid stuff, not adding an AAD and then doing what you want.

EDIT: I'm done with this....It is quite clear that if the only factor that makes it OK for you to jump is the AAD, you are in fact dependant.

I see no need to continue this...If you feel like asking me a question...Think about the question, then read all these posts again...I can bet it has been answered atleast once before.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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Not a polite fuckoff...Simple statement that shows the same attitude in a different area. A dangerous situation (driving drunk, a dive that you think is too dangerous without an AAD) and once you add a device (Airbag, or AAD) you now accept the dangers.

The analogy is inane because people don't drive drunk because they have airbags. They drive drunk because alcohol impairs judgement. Up until the mid 90s airbags were not standard equipment, you needed to buy the higher line models to get it as an option. In the 80s, it barely existed. Yet drunk driving was a bigger problem than it is now. (Tailgating because of ABS would have been a much more suitable comparison, but sticking to skydiving would be even better)

You haven't proven, except to yourself, that the Cypres is also enabling recklessly dangerous activity. Though if we brought a whuffo into this thread, I'm sure he'd say we're all recklessly relying on gear to do stupid shit.

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I think they make jumpers safeR.

See I don't...Safe is AVOIDING dangerous situations. An AAD will increase the chances of survival, but that does not make you safer.

As Pilotdave identified, you've set up a nice tautology by defining risk and safety in a questionable manner. The decrease in the number of deaths from no pulls shows the truth.

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Show me one post where I argue AGAINST THEM? Go ahead time after time you say things then fail to follow through. Go ahead. Find it.

You present me the choice of never packing my chute, or jumping without. Or at least saying I would without, which is meaningless.

In your personal realm of risk, I don't see how a skydiver can actually progress. You reject the use of mitigating devices for those pushing their personal envelop.

Sorry, no questions for you. But if you want to start a new thread on what causes people to lose altitude awareness and need that AAD fire, that would be interesting.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I think they make jumpers safeR.

See I don't...Safe is AVOIDING dangerous situations. An AAD will increase the chances of survival, but that does not make you safer.

Then to be safe you should not skydive at all, after all that is AVOIDING a dangerous situation. No?

Said it before - this entire discussion is subjective depending on what you personally consider a risk.

I've yet to see a report where someone was hurt, injured, or killed because of this so called AAD Device Dependancy you speak of. I have personally seen one person saved from a Cypres fire (she quit the sport) and have read the reports of others. At least one life saved and not one death caused is more than enough proof for me.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[LukeOliver 0]

I'm spoiled/lucky/organised (delete as appropriate); two identical Talon rigs with two Cypres. The servicing is out of sequence, so worst case only one rig will be without.

It's pretty simple for me; and no more complex than "helmet". I'd happily do four ways with my team, swoop, or film a tandem without an AAD.

I wouldn't run base in a Starcrest without one. Or be a Tandem Master without one. And I'd think twice about running a Coach jump - Novices have loosened teeth, broken my ProTrack (external), broken my camera... something ironic is always possible.

L.

[sneaky 0]

great thread !! Hot debates as usual..

AAD's are mandatory here in Spain, I wouldnt jump without one, i have seen them in action and they are an incredible piece of equipment.

I respect people who choose to jump with them and I respect people who choose to jump without. I choose to jump with an AAD.

[Tonto 1]

One of my rigs has no cypres.

The other expires in 2 months.

I'll keep jumping without them. 12 years I've had one - and never needed it once. WHAT A WASTE!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Peej 0]

My Cypres is sitting in a drawer at home because it's going to cost me a small fortune to send it away to Airtec. Of course i'm jumping without it. While I agree that they are an amazing piece of machinery I try to skydive like i don't have one.

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[Squeak 17]

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My Cypres is sitting in a drawer at home because it's going to cost me a small fortune to send it away to Airtec. Of course i'm jumping without it. While I agree that they are an amazing piece of machinery I try to skydive like i don't have one.

yOU'RE LUCKY YOU'RE NOTH ERE INoz pEEJ. wE ARN'T ALLOWED to jump without a cypres (AAD) until we get further through our licensing structure. A B & C all must use an AAD

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Peej 0]

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My Cypres is sitting in a drawer at home because it's going to cost me a small fortune to send it away to Airtec. Of course i'm jumping without it. While I agree that they are an amazing piece of machinery I try to skydive like i don't have one.

yOU'RE LUCKY YOU'RE NOTH ERE INoz pEEJ. wE ARN'T ALLOWED to jump without a cypres (AAD) until we get further through our licensing structure. A B & C all must use an AAD

Yeah i guess i am. I have no problem with the rule though, i believe AAD's are mandatory in Empuria as well.

Like i said the only reason i'm not currently jumping mine is money. In fact i think that instead of spending 2500 South African Rands (the equivalent of US$416) i should rather put the money towards a new Cypres 2 or a vigil.

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