relative proximity and deployment

[Misternatural 0]

We all know where you are in the sky relative to your fellow jumpers at deployment is a critical time. Generally from what I understand the procedure is; breakoff at the agreed altitude, turn away, track and deploy at a safe distance from the ground and your fellow jumpers also at an agreed altitude.

Sometimes especially for low time jumpers like myself, during freefly or hybrid attempts, the plan and subsequent formation falls apart and jumpers end up not being at the same altitude because of different fall rates, or corking, or body position.

it is easy to loose sight of people in this situation.

How do we reduce the dangers of a collision with this scenario at deployment time, because with jumpers spread out both horizontally and vertically after a collapse it is not always clear in the seconds that we have which direction or whether or not to track at all before deployment?


Thank you in advance

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[Morrison79 0]

The best way is to stay in smaller groups and know you limits.

[wmw999 2,121]

No one can guarantee they'll never, ever be caught in a funnel if they jump with other people.

The first piece of this puzzle is not to jump with more people than you can keep track of. Learn what the jumpsuits look like, and look for them as you track on all jumps, even when they're way lower than you. And expect the same of the people who are above you.

Then learn to be predictable -- that's one of the best gifts you can give other skydivers at critical times. Track far, and in a straight line -- it gives a jumper who might be above you the best chance of seeing you. Look below and around you as much as you can. Practice on all jumps. And give a really big, really obvious wave before pulling. That's the last hint to someone who might be above you of what's coming. I'm not a big fan of barrel rolling before pulling; the chance of actually seeing someone, stopping your pull, and then pulling at a still-safe altitude is probably less than if you just jump with reliable people, and are predictable yourself.

If you do tracking dives sometimes you'll get some practice at seeing what people all around you tracking is like -- that's a good thing.

Good question. Really good.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JoeQ.Public 0]

Be careful who you jump with. Some people will kill you. If I find myself in that situation I worry about the airspace below me and pull lower then the rest.

Very soon, an honest person will not be able to sing the last 2 lines of our National Anthem:::Practice safe dining....use condiments

[pilotdave 0]

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Sometimes especially for low time jumpers like myself, during freefly or hybrid attempts, the plan and subsequent formation falls apart and jumpers end up not being at the same altitude because of different fall rates, or corking, or body position.

Honestly the best idea is to avoid that situation as much as possible. It's going to happen sometimes... there'll always be funnels right before breakoff. But if jumps don't go to plan most of the time (leaving people all over the sky), stick with smaller groups so it's easier to stay together or at least keep track of each other. Especially if you're jumping with other people at your experience level.

But when you're in that situation, keep your eyes open, find clear air, and save yourself. Some people recommend barrel rolling while tracking to look above. I don't personally believe it's a good idea, especially if you're not really good at it. Track flat and far and look around. And be glad the sky is really big because that's pretty much the only reason we don't bump into each other more often.

Dave

[Misternatural 0]

Thanks again people, this is helpful..... Skydiving is both fun and serious stuff, On the ground sometimes the fun aspect overrides the serious aspect. I aspire to make sure I have eye contact with people when we go over the plan especially the breakoff altitude and procedures and try to keep reminding myself and friends that at breakoff altitude- monkey time is over no matter where you are in the sky and it is clutch time to look for clear air to deploy.

When I am doing a two way with a new sit flyer I try to make it a point that they not cork but if they are spinning wildly in their attempt it is ok to go to belly- and once they do I will belly up to them.... that way I do not disappear.

Sometimes if things go to crap on a hybrid with everyone flipping around I will sit briefly to get away from everyone then turn and see where they are and then try to get back to level. Does this sound right? or should everyone agree to go right to belly after a funnel?

Keeping the jumper numbers down on these dives for me makes a lot of sense too.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[tjm 0]

Depending on the size group, If a formation funnels you should have some ideal where you are vertically within the group. i.e. - low man, middle of group, or on top. Then you should react accordingly. You should be able to tell whether more people or below you or above you. Depending on the situation, barrel rolls can be useful if done right. A good look over both shoulders after imediatley starting your track should give you a good head count with both big and small ways.

There are different ways of broadening your view other than barrel rolling. You look behind you by looking under your body. This can be be improved by slightly leaning right and left, thus exposing more sky for a quick view. Also, doing this while looking up and over your shoulder aloows you to see above you more.

One important rule I was always taught is that the low man has the right a way. So, after keeping track of those that are visible make sure your sapce is clear below you and give a big wave, pull, then get your head on a swivel.

tj

If you're not living on the edge; you're taking up too much room!

[billvon 2,400]

>How do we reduce the dangers of a collision with this scenario at
>deployment time, because with jumpers spread out both horizontally
>and vertically after a collapse it is not always clear in the seconds that
> we have which direction or whether or not to track at all before
>deployment?

1) Don't funnel.

2) ALWAYS try to rebuild the formation all the way to breakoff. Don't just give up and start tracking.

3) Go to the low person as you rebuild.

4) Have a plan for what you will rebuild (i.e. a belly round)

5) Ensure everyone agrees on breakoff altitude, and do not leave until that altitude.

6) Clear your airspace very well. Remember that the biggest threat to _you_ is directly beneath you. Wave off visibly.

[BDashe 0]

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I'm not a big fan of barrel rolling before pulling; the chance of actually seeing someone, stopping your pull, and then pulling at a still-safe altitude is probably less than if you just jump with reliable people, and are predictable yourself.


Wendy P.

I kind of have to disagree with you on this point. Maybe for a low time jumper this could potentially be valid, someone with little backfly experience, where misternatural could fall into that category. Maybe that's what you were intending. I think those are very important skills to learn and be comfortable with as someone's jumping progresses.

I've been in a situation more than once where a barrel roll potentially saved disaster- especially true on zoo-type dives mixing decent freeflyers with new ones.I fall towards the latter category.

Not that I have all the experience in the world, but what i have learned thus far is for freefly jumps- learning to backtrack well so you can see above/around as well as not cork at break off which can create multiple levels is imperative, barrel rolls with a quick pause for a scan on tracking and zoo dives (as described by OP) can absolutely avoid close calls or worse.

Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this, but from my experience, I've seen these practices in action and working. Now, this SHOULD NOT be the only safe practice, i agree with pretty much everything else that has been stated so far.

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[billvon 2,400]

> barrel rolls with a quick pause for a scan on tracking and zoo
> dives (as described by OP) can absolutely avoid close calls or worse.

Just as an FYI, if you try that on the more serious bigway attempts, you will get benched very quickly for putting other people at risk.

[kkeenan 13]

That is why it is important to learn to track fast and effeciently. Even following a funnel, you should be able to determine a "center of mass" based on the people you can see. Turn away from that point and go like hell. If you are looking ahead and below you, you should be able to see anyone there. Likewise, anyone above and behind you should be able to see you. Make sure that you wave off prior to pulling, so those above you know your intentions and can alter course.

This is the accepted protocol. If everyone follows this system, it allows for mutual safeguards. You shouldn't pull below your minimum altitude, but if you're comfortable fudging a bit to the low side, this is the time to do it. If your personal pull altitude is something different from the rest of the group, make sure that they all know this. If it is vastly different - and unchangeable - you probably don't belong on that load.

Kevin K.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[Misternatural 0]

>If your personal pull altitude is something different from the rest of the group,

Right.....and since I am trying to be more vocal on the ground plan- I try to emphasize that we all pull at the same altitude, at least thats the point of an agreed deployment altitude in my view- and I make a point of making sure I get a nod at least- But I have noticed that some people like to blow that off and zoom down to pull lower for the ground rush or whatever- which does not bother me as long as they are sufficiently spaced, which is usually the case.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[ibx 2]

What do you guys think of the following procedure ?

We did a couple of zoo dives with very experienced freeflyers and some barely being able to sit stabley.

This was an all plane load with 15 jumpers...

The LO told the low time jumpers, if they had an issue with fallrate and could not reach the group(beginning freeflyers are often too slow) . They should continuesly track away from 8000 feet to 5000 and pull. We jump from 14000 feet. The rest of broke off at 5000 and were all told to barrel roll before pulling in 3000.
I track on my back on most freefly jumps. It's almost as fast a normal track and I can see everybody in the group as they're leaving...

[wmw999 2,121]

I don't know much about freeflying, but if that were the plan in an RW load I'd say it was badly misplanned. If nothing else, it goes against the common wisdom of staying together.

It's probably a sign that the jump should have been split into a couple of groups -- a slower one and a faster one.

I'm not a big fan of putting a newbie into the middle of a bigway and telling them to just pull in the middle, either. Independent newbies are the most important people to use common skydiving discipline.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[BDashe 0]

well then, it's a good thing i wasn't talking about big way belly is it? as i stated, freefly and tracking.

I made the freefly notes because the OP was talking about freefly and hybrid jumps NOT belly which has a different set of rules. take a look at the recent 108 way h/d record, count the back trackers @ break off, then the belly trackers...

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[ibx 2]

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I don't know much about freeflying, but if that were the plan in an RW load I'd say it was badly misplanned. If nothing else, it goes against the common wisdom of staying together.

The plan was to stay together. This was just the backup plan and one participant followed through. The fallrate of tracker is far slower than the freeflyers. So he pulls far away and way and above the group. The newbies still had around 150 to 200 jumps so they could be trusted to track in one direction.

[ebusto 0]

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Just as an FYI, if you try that on the more serious bigway attempts, you will get benched very quickly for putting other people at risk.

I've never been on a bigway. How is performing a barrel roll while tracking putting others at risk?

[billvon 2,400]

> How is performing a barrel roll while tracking putting others at risk?

1) It makes it harder to stay with your tracking team.

2) It makes you less predictable - even the best backflyer will change their fallrate/heading/track speed a bit when barrel rolling.

3) It reduces the distance you can get from the center before pulling.

[Misternatural 0]

Ah

I just figured something out based on what you said which totally makes sense now- The agreed deployment altitude just means the altitude which an individual person says they are going to deploy....NOT the altitude where everyone should deploy- as long as there is sufficient horizontal separation which is the most important thing. Am I on the right page with this thinking? Thanks for the info.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[skycc 0]

Something else to think about, if anyone tracks that long from such a high altitude, you greatly increase the chance they can track into another group of skydivers on the same load if there are additional groups.

I believe in the stay together as much as possible until breakoff plan, freefly or belly.

[ibx 2]

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Something else to think about, if anyone tracks that long from such a high altitude, you greatly increase the chance they can track into another group of skydivers on the same load if there are additional groups.

That is definitly true, but this was an all plane load like I said above. If there are groups behind you, then this is of course a stupid idea.

[CygnusX-1 42]

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I'm not a big fan of putting a newbie into the middle of a bigway and telling them to just pull in the middle, either.

I've seen that go horribly wrong. Something you don't think about, but here is the situation:

We were on an 8-way (or something like that) with 1 low time jumper. They wanted to pull slightly higher then the rest of us so the plan was to have them wave off to let us know they were leaving at their brake-off alt., track and pull. At their brake off altitude they were low from the rest of the formation (only about 5-10 feet). They turned, tracked away but because they were new, their tracking sucked and they only tracked for about 10 feet. Then they deployed from below the formation (10-15 feet out).

Ok, I know it is not the exact same thing as having the newbe deploy from the center as everyone else tracks away. But it is the same idea. It was quite an experience to see the canopy come out of the bag and inflate and watch them fly right past me that close.

[freeflyer58D 1]

i know this isnt exactly what you asked but it has its good learning points... well, there i was, we were doing an 8 way speedstar attempt. we briefed the jump very well. break at 5,000, pull 3,000. one jumper had just bought a new canopy and wanted to open higher. we all agreed he would pull in place at five. so at about seven grand i find myself sinking slightly below the group trying to get in. im 5 feet lower and people in the formation are arching hard to get it down to the 3 of us that went low. thats when the formation funneled. the left side that could see us arched hard, the right side did not. suddenly the one jumper who planned to pull in place got slung under me. about ten feet lower than i. i knew he never saw me. we briefed to everyone to get the fuck away from him if you found yourself above at 5,000. so as he gets slung under me my 5,500 ditter goes off. lol and all i could do was this tracking front flip to a sit about five feet in front of him. i passed infront of his face about five feet away in a sit as he threw his PC. and we made eye contact and smiled as i saw him get line stretch and i returned to belly. all in all, it turned out alright. but what i took away from it was always do a great brief, know jumpsuits for everyone on the load, and his wave was big and obvious, not to mention slow and deliberate on purpose. because of our brief we all knew what we needed to be safe. and the brief WAS the difference between safe and very dangerous.

[brettski74 0]

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I've never been on a bigway. How is performing a barrel roll while tracking putting others at risk?

You can probably find a lot of comments on this by doing a search, but here's my observations.

1. When you barrel roll, your forward speed slows down significantly and your vertical speed increases significantly so you're no longer doing your job of moving away from the formation. This is true of every person I've ever witnessed do a barrel roll during track-off and creates less room for the break-off waves behind you.

2. The changes in trajectory induced by the barrel roll make you less predictable during track-off, which makes you more of a hazard to other jumpers who may have multiple adjacent people to keep track of.

3. Everyone I've seen barrel roll completes the maneauvre in about 1 second. That's insufficient time to adequately identify and evaluate a potential hazard. Basically, if you think you're adequately clearing any airspace at all during such a maneauvre, you're kidding yourself.

4. While you're playing around with your barrel roll, you're not clearing the air below and in front of you, which is where you should be going. If someone is above and behind you, and you're both looking where you're going, the high guy can see the low guy and be able to avoid him accordingly. If the high guy is busy rolling around on his back, however, the low guy waving off might be the last thing he doesn't see.

5. In my opinion, I get more useful information about what's above and behind me by looking over both shoulders while flaring at the end of my track and prior to the wave off.

[BDashe 0]

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Sometimes especially for low time jumpers like myself, during freefly or hybrid attempts, the plan and subsequent formation falls apart...

can someone point out belly/big way belly in there to me?

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983