New jumpers at your DZ

[Baksteen 84]

Right.
This thread has drifted in a way I didn't foresee.
Money.
Mind you, I'm not interested in what one has to do/spend before being able to make money skydiving, or how to ensure that novices can make money skydiving.

What I was targeting with this thread is the novices that drop out for the single reason that they aren't given a reason to come back.
Talking to the novices, jumping with them. That's the important stuff, which leads to hanging around the campfire. There is a lot of that at my DZ.

Of course, at some point a novice has to take the initiative to seek instruction and to join a group around the bonfire.
What is needed is that the novices are being made to feel at home. Introducing novices to instructors(of course) but also to experienced jumpers simply to jump with them - and introducing them to other novices.

But what about events? Do you know about jump events that are organised especially for students/novices?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[virgin-burner 1]

http://www.nur-gezielt.ch/

this is an accuracy-event, targeted at sub-250 jumpers, coupled with a canopy-class; they'll film each and every landing of the participants and debrief them all after the jump. very good idea and a fun thing! of course, there are many good prices to win as well, from t-shirts, to shorts, camera-mounts, vouchers for rigs and jumpsuits..

thanks charly for doing this!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[pirana 0]

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There just arent enough students who:

1. Have inadequancy issues that drove them towards lucrative careers and helped develop an extreme type A personality

2. Have social dysfunctions that allow them to completely disassociate with their friends and family to pursue a whole new lifestyle at the dropzone.

3. Have historic substance abuse issues and have recognized adrenaline to be a workable substitute.

One of the previously aformentioned students is worth 20 of your normal, well adjusted variety.

Huh?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Baksteen 84]

We do have a student accuracy event along the same principles, though at a smaller scale.
I checked out the url - it looks like a lot of fun!

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[virgin-burner 1]

yup, did it last year and had a blast!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[davelepka 4]

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What I was targeting with this thread is the novices that drop out for the single reason that they aren't given a reason to come back.

What is needed is that the novices are being made to feel at home. Introducing novices to instructors(of course) but also to experienced jumpers simply to jump with them -

I started with the money issue, and part of it was the high cost of entry, but the other part was how that cost will influence jumpers down the line.

Take a guy who's been jumping for five years with 500 jumps. Between jumps and gear he's got $20k tied up in skydiving. This is probably going to be a guy with a good job and a life outside of the DZ (not a DZ rat who's there every day). Given the limited amount of time he has to spend at the DZ, I'm not surprised that he would rather jump with those of similar (or better) skill levels.

Another layer of that concept is the specialized dicsiplines. That same guy who's been working on his freeflying, or block moves with a four-way team is going to be hard pressed to 'babysit' a newbie who's still trying to fall straight down.

Let's go one step further in looking at how modern skydiving pushes the newbies aside - big turbines. On a Cessna DZ, you have four slots at best to a load (a tandem will cut that in half). Licensed jumpers will maifest and take whatever slots are available on the next load becasue bumping back a load is a real time waster. As such, you get a wider of jumpers manifested together on loads, and with only 2 or 4 people total, it's easier to include evreyone in the jump.

I, for one, have experinced this. If we're running the 182, or the Caravan is full of tandems, sometimes it's just me and one or two other fun jumpers on a load. In these instances, I'll group up with whoever is on the load, and come up with a dive we can all take part in. On a load where there are a dozen fun jumpers, I'm not looking around to make sure everyone is grouped up, and has someone to jump with.

So when you have an Otter full of jumpers, you can do bigger ways that the newbies aren't ready for, and there are so many jumpers on the load, that a single guy doing a solo is alot easier to ignore than when it's a Cessna, and that guy is at least 25% of the load.

It's a different world. We have all sorts of neat specialized gear, advanced and refined freefall disciplines, and big fast airplanes, all of which are good in some ways and bad in others.

In terms of easing the way for newbies into becoming skydivers, maybe not so good.

[elightle 8]

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...Let's go one step further in looking at how modern skydiving pushes the newbies aside - big turbines. On a Cessna DZ, you have four slots at best to a load (a tandem will cut that in half). Licensed jumpers will maifest and take whatever slots are available on the next load becasue bumping back a load is a real time waster. As such, you get a wider of jumpers manifested together on loads, and with only 2 or 4 people total, it's easier to include evreyone in the jump. ...

Excellent point, Dave! Back in the days when we did 4-way from C-182's, I jumped with several newcomers who went on to compete at the National and even World level. Then when big planes came along, I was usually on the big-way loads and newcomers were pretty much on their own unless they were experienced enough to join us.

[Fast 0]

One of the things that we have started to do at my DZ is help jumpers who are really interested get to the A license. We are trying to make this affordable. In the end, the cost is still there, but we are in an area where 5 months out of the year there isn't a whole lot of jumping. So what we have done is offer free finacing to students who have made at least an AFF Level 1 and are sure that they want to continue in the sport. it lets them spread the cost out over winter when there isn't much to do as well as work forward in the program faster so they don't sturggle to remember things. I have 3-4 people on my DZ right now that would not be skydivers if it wasn't for this program. They come out and jump as much as they want working towards their A license. We have a program that is similar to SDCs AFP. (most of the DZs around SDC do) and we end up with a person with 25 jumps their first license and they can participate in a 4-way.

We also do everything we can to help them find used gear (not new gear) and in fact steer them away from anything new. It's made a BIG difference for us. They get to come out and make the jumps and get to the part of the sport where they are participating with others and they aren't taking 6-months and 3 recurrency jumps to do it.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[IMALSUTIGERFAN 0]

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http://www.nur-gezielt.ch/this is an accuracy-event, targeted at sub-250 jumpers, coupled with a canopy-class; they'll film each and every landing of the participants and debrief them all after the jump. very good idea and a fun thing! of course, there are many good prices to win as well, from t-shirts, to shorts, camera-mounts, vouchers for rigs and jumpsuits..thanks charly for doing this!

This may be the excuse I needed to make a road trip....OK a plane trip

[IMALSUTIGERFAN 0]

I must be lucky, for the 2 drop zones I have been to the people have been extremely friendly...when in Cannon Co they all were helpful and friendly...but being from the deep South we don't normaly have trouble making friends...and at my home DZ "Gold Coast Skydiving" all the experianced jumpers have no trouble making you feel right at home. And the staff will take a quiet newbie and pull him into the group by making him part of the conversation...so in no time you have a good group of friends

[davelepka 4]

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offer free finacing to students who have made at least an AFF Level 1 and are sure that they want to continue in the sport.

do everything we can to help them find used gear (not new gear) and in fact steer them away from anything new.

That's a solution, and a good case of a DZ putting students and making new jumpers a top priority.

Just to illustrate the flip side to that, let's remember that DZs are businesses, and only part-time in most parts of the country, so you have to make the money while you can.

With that in mind, let's consider that we've already priced out AFF to an A license at about $2k. If a DZ can make half of that in profit (probably not, but let's just say), that's $1k in their pocket, most likely over the course of several months.

Then that jumper buys gear, and let's go with the low cost used option, and the DZ locates it all, and marks it up a notch before selling to the jumper. The DZ pockets another $400.

That same jumper is now a skydiver, and makes 75 jumps a year, not a bad number for a jumper who deosn't jump in the winter. Figure the DZ makes $5 a slot, so the DZ is up another $375.

Grand total over the course of two seasons - $1775

Same DZ books 20 tandems on a Saturday. Makes $1775 in 8 hours.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way it is. Sure the new jumper may bring in more tandems by talkign up his buddies, but maybe not. Sure you need new jumpers to make new instructors and keep the DZ alive, but that's a long term concern. The AFF students income is also long term, slowly flowing over the course of two seasons.

The staff is a porblem as well. You have more TMs than AFF-Is, and most of the guys are multi rated anyway. I cannot understand this for the life of me, but a good number of them prefer tandems to AFF. No packing, very brief training, no de-brief, it's quick money. (I for one would much rather jump and pack my Velo, and actually freefall as opposed to drougefall).

It's not hard to understand how the little guy (AFF student or newbie) can get overlooked at a modern day DZ. Points to Sky Knights for making sure it doesn't happen.

[thrillstalker 0]

i just finished aff so i am in the position that this thread is focusing on.
i jump at the farm. the 25 jump a license package is 1800 dollars and includes 4 coach jumps and all equipment rental/packing.

as far as getting me to come back... i'm already hooked. no doubt i will be skydiving for as long as i can. money is a problem for me cause i am a 21 year old college student, but i am not letting that get in the way. i will find the money.

everyone i have met at the farm is helpful. people ask me about how my jumps went and that makes me feel welcome. i camp there all weekend when i go so i have got to know the familiar faces around there, and i feel comfortable socializing with them. last time i was at the dz popsjumper and i did a fun jump cause he has an instructor rating so i can jump with him. i also feel comfortable asking questions and i do so almost non stop.

during the day there are always a few jumpers sitting relaxing and talking somewhere. i am not shy so i talk to as many of these groups as i can. while doing this you meet people. i have had a lot of people offer to jump with me as soon as i get my a.

with a little work from the folks at the dz and a little work on your part meeting new people, i dont see how someone couldnt feel welcome.

i feel fortunate that i found a good dz to call home.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[virgin-burner 1]

he fooled you into believing he's got a rating!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[NWFlyer 2]

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People are friendly but seem too busy to really guide me during this phase of my skydiving career--at least that has been my perception. I realize I need to be persistent but at the same time I'm at a point where my frustration level is a bit high--I was very excited in March but was hoping to have more to show for the jumps I've done since March.

David - if you're at Skydance on Saturday, find me and I'll be happy to help you plan out the path to an A and do a coach jump or two with you if that's part of what's needed. I've got nothing specific planned other than to be there and fun jump this weekend, and for me, fun jumps include coach jumps and jumping with newbies. If not this weekend, I should be back up Labor Day weekend.

As for the general thread topic - I try to say hi to newer jumpers, even away from my home DZ. Usually it's pretty obvious - they're on student gear and wearing DZ jumpsuits and helmets. I hope that even something as simple as asking "how was your jump?" as we're walking into from the landing area might help them to feel more a part of the overall DZ culture.

DZs that take the time to provide opportunities for newer jumpers to connect with other people to jump with will reap the rewards of a loyal and enthusiastic community of new jumpers who are willing to give back. As Lisa mentioned above, Skydance does a good job with regular events - I've attended scrambles or organized days several times since I've moved down to CA and it's been great for me to meet more people and improve my own skills. Elsinore's Excel camps are another great example of a DZ that's embraced newer jumpers.

Boogies are another place where DZs can really help bring younger jumpers in. I was at the Skydive Pepperell boogie this past weekend and they had four LOs working with people of varying experience levels. The LOs did a great job of putting people in the right group and moving them around if the original fit wasn't right or if they could comfortably go with different groups. Everybody got to do skydives that were challenging and fun for their level of experience and skill. That helps not only to make people newer to the sport comfortable, but also to make people new to the DZ (like me) feel welcome.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[fasted3 0]

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But what about events? Do you know about jump events that are organised especially for students/novices?

I participated in a 4 way scrambles competition that welcomed new jumpers, (I had about 80.) It was a lot of fun, and a great learning experience. Thanks Raeford, for a super time.
Elsinore offered a canopy course that came at just the right time on my learning curve. They also had the skills camp, instructor types out looking for newbies like me, with a brand new A license, to jump with; basically free coach jumps. A place that seems genuinely interested in newer jumpers, and has implemented good plans for them.
Perhaps most important of all is a friendly bunch of folks like at Gold Coast. Everybody has fun at my favorite place, no matter how many jumps they have.
+1 on the Southern Hospitality.

But what do I know?

[SivaGanesha 2]

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David - if you're at Skydance on Saturday, find me and I'll be happy to help you plan out the path to an A and do a coach jump or two with you if that's part of what's needed. I've got nothing specific planned other than to be there and fun jump this weekend, and for me, fun jumps include coach jumps and jumping with newbies. If not this weekend, I should be back up Labor Day weekend.

Hi Krisanne--

Thanks for the offer!! Greatly appreciated. I will definitely be at Skydance on Saturday. Right now my plan had been to take the canopy skills course that Lisa has announced for this Saturday--unless there is another plan that is better. However a number of the things I need to get signed off ARE either canopy or hop'n'pop related so I was thinking this course could be a good opportunity to get some of this stuff signed off.

But I'm open to other plans as well . Might be good to decide before Saturday AM, though, because I assume that the canopy course will start early Saturday AM and if I start it I'll probably want to finish it.

I'll be around Labor Day weekend as well. Thanks again--hope to jump with you one of these weekends .

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[faulknerwn 36]

We did a 2-way scrambles at my dz Sunday. It was surprisingly fun. There was still a competitive spirit but nothing was taken too seriously. I was paired with a rookie who managed to stay on his belly the entire 3rd jump! I did learn that launching like an AFF level 4 and transitioning from there was a good plan :-)

It was goofy, but it was fun, and the rookies learned a lot. I learned what interesting things happen when you launch a compressed accordian from a 182 with a rookie :-)

In all honesty, I had far more fun than I expected.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Thanks for the offer!! Greatly appreciated. I will definitely be at Skydance on Saturday. Right now my plan had been to take the canopy skills course that Lisa has announced for this Saturday--unless there is another plan that is better. However a number of the things I need to get signed off ARE either canopy or hop'n'pop related so I was thinking this course could be a good opportunity to get some of this stuff signed off.

But I'm open to other plans as well . Might be good to decide before Saturday AM, though, because I assume that the canopy course will start early Saturday AM and if I start it I'll probably want to finish it.

Taking Lisa & Keith's canopy course is by far the best way I can think of to spend your Saturday at Skydance... no matter what your level of experience. You'll get stuff signed off on your card and learn invaluable survival skills.

I now have one task I do need to accomplish during the day, but we'll definitely sit down at some point (maybe end-of-day) to talk about what's still left on your card.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[zen_mtn_climber 0]

I can chime in a little re: finishing your A as well. I just finished my A end of June at Skydance. I was pretty slow in finishing due to money, family commitments, long drive to Skydance. Agree with you that after finishing AFF that its easy to feel kind of adrift. I wasn't quite sure how it all worked at first and how I was going to get my card finished. AFF is so structured and then suddenly bang . . no structure.

Did a couple of solos, was kinda floating on my own and then finally just had manifest set up my first coach jump for me based on who was around that day and not too busy. Once I did my first coach jump, things started to fall in place.

What I found in all cases were that my coaches were all really helpful and supportive. In each case, my coach would look at my card, see what was left and we'd plan a custom dive flow based on what I'd completed so far and what I might be able to get checked off. Once I realized this, had some great talks with coaches about what I felt good about, what I was struggling with . . started to enjoy the more freeform nature of post-AFF.

So hope you have a good time with the canopy course this weekend. I'm out of town or I'd be there myself. And hope your jumps w/NWFlyer help you on your way.

I'd also say chat with Keith and Lisa after your course . . they're a great source of info and encouragement.

Last, once you finish your A I'd be happy to jump with you sometime. I'm still figuring it out myself so I won't be able to teach you stuff like a coach or experienced jumper . . but I'm low stress and looking for someone on my level to jump with
Cheers,
Keith

"Whatever the future holds down the road, being true to yourself is something you won't ever regret doing. " - airtwardo

[grannyinthesky 0]

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We did a 2-way scrambles at my dz Sunday. It was surprisingly fun. There was still a competitive spirit but nothing was taken too seriously. I was paired with a rookie who managed to stay on his belly the entire 3rd jump! I did learn that launching like an AFF level 4 and transitioning from there was a good plan :-)

It was goofy, but it was fun, and the rookies learned a lot. I learned what interesting things happen when you launch a compressed accordian from a 182 with a rookie :-)

In all honesty, I had far more fun than I expected.

That sounds like fun. I'm from a 182 dz and that sounds like it's something we could do. How did it work and what kind of stuff did you do on the jumps?

"safety first... and What the hell.....
safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy

POPS #10490

[faulknerwn 36]

Picked 2 way dive points at random ( think they were printed from the Internet somewhere) and each dive had 3-4 points

we did it on the honor system - no camera. exit was 10500, breakoff by 4500

[fallfast69 2]

Not replying to anyone in particular...but much love to you Wendy

This all happened a long time ago:

When I was cleared to "jumpmaster myself" (after about 15 jumps), I didn't really care where I jumped, who I jumped with (if anyone at all), or what I was "supposed to do". I packed my rig, manifested, and got ready to enjoy the sky! If there was someone that wanted to do RW on the load, we would do RW! If I ended up going solo, I'd work on something I knew I needed to work on, left-turn, right-turn, back-loop, repeat until track time, then track, wave-off, look, and pull at the desired altitude. Simply enjoying the sky!

Some skydivers, new and experianced, seem to need a "goal" or "reason" to jusitfy spending 20 bucks for a skydive, but that shouldn't be the drive!

The goal and reason to jump should be simply that...to jump and enjoy the sky. For a few seconds, it's MY sky to do with what I please...so new guys, go forth and do what YOU please. Challenge, yourself only, and fuck everyone else. You are a skydiver, right? Your here because you love the sky, right? Well you sure as hell shouldn't need someone holding your hand and telling what you need to work on, you already know your weaknesses, don't you?

You don't need a sky full of people to tell you that...go to work on, your turns, your front-loops and back-loops, tracking, looking and wave-off, and packing, basic skydiving stuff - everything else will fall into place, including your licenses, as it should.

Don't get yourself stuck into a rut of "what do I do now" - go fucking jump and work on the basic skills you already know you need. If you jump solo enough, someone will see your working on your skills, and you'll be jumping with someone else before you know it!

Make it your skydivings lifes mission to "learn something on every jump" but don't depend on anyone else to achive that mission.

Now, new jumpers, go forth, multiply, and jump for the fun of it!

My new sig line is gonna be:
Stop spoon-feeding the students, they'll get used to it and start thinking that's how skydiving is supposed to be


Jon

[SivaGanesha 2]

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...

Last, once you finish your A I'd be happy to jump with you sometime. I'm still figuring it out myself so I won't be able to teach you stuff like a coach or experienced jumper . . but I'm low stress and looking for someone on my level to jump with
Cheers,
Keith

Hi Keith,

Thanks--it would be great to jump with you once I get my 'A'. Hopefully I'll see you around the DZ again soon
Skydance seems to have a significantly more 'freeform' approach post-AFF (but pre-license) than some DZ's. Some DZ's seem to have very defined 25 jump packages which (I assume) have clear objectives for all jumps up to the 'A'.

I basically agree with 'fallfast69's message above--in my case, whenever I've been talking to someone I know is a coach and the time seems right, I do a coach jump and get some stuff signed off--but I haven't gone out of my way to try to get everything signed off, either. I'm realizing now that with this approach I probably haven't gotten as much signed off as I could have--there is stuff I've done but don't have signed--but I do agree that this sport is about falling in love with the sky, not filling in some silly paperwork.

Should stay focused on having fun and not so much on all these "goals" . Again hope to see you in the air soon!

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SugarBug 0]

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Furthermore, the very market that skydiving needs to tap into, the 20-soemthing males who will spend every weekend at the DZ, and become the instructors of the next generaltion just can't make the grade.

What about us 20-something females, that will spend our hard earned money and time every weekend at the DZ?

This male dominated sport mentality needs to be curbed, as long as everyone keeps feeding it the sport as a whole will be missing a very large demographic of potential jumpers.

As i'm a Noob to the sport (just completed my AFF this past weekend), I can tell you my DZ has been absolutely amazing. They are all very welcoming, and sincere. From Day 1 of my AFF course I was told I was family.
I look forward to many more jumps with them and with others as well.

Blue Skies

[skybytch 259]

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However a number of the things I need to get signed off ARE either canopy or hop'n'pop related so I was thinking this course could be a good opportunity to get some of this stuff signed off.

It is.