Sad news for tandem

[tigra 0]

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...In any event, I think an ambulance chaser attorney playing on the next of kin's emotions for financial gain is a huge area we could really use some tort reform on.

Agreed.

For the record - my opinion only - I don't agree with including Strong Enterprises in the lawsuit unless the plaintiff had reason to believe there was a significant design flaw that they knew about and did not correct before the incident. (specifically, a design flaw that could have contributed to or caused the incident.)

I also don't think DZs (or any other business) should be able to hide behind waivers when there is negligence involved. Again- just my own personal opinion.

I'm not a lawyer but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express .............

[airdvr 197]

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+1

"Good people" don't do what they did and leave SE hung out to dry by thier actions and lack there of.

Unfortunately our current legal system isn't about good and bad or right v. wrong. I know Sherry & Tim and they are decent people. Who's to say that given the same choice of spending all of our assets fighting a losing battle or just re-opening under a new company we wouldn't all choose the latter. I'm sure that was the advise of counsel.

It's a terrible set of events and there is really only one person responsible for it happening.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[marks2065 0]

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+1

"Good people" don't do what they did and leave SE hung out to dry by thier actions and lack there of.

Unfortunately our current legal system isn't about good and bad or right v. wrong. I know Sherry & Tim and they are decent people. Who's to say that given the same choice of spending all of our assets fighting a losing battle or just re-opening under a new company we wouldn't all choose the latter. I'm sure that was the advise of counsel.

It's a terrible set of events and there is really only one person responsible for it happening.

you are correct the DZO

[normiss 622]

total disagreement unless he was the TI on this fatal jump

[baronn 111]

As amazing as it is to imagine a TI allowing a passenger on a plane without a properly adjusted harness, it's almost as amazing to see how the blame is put on anyone and everyone that can be tied in with this horrible and completely preventable trajedy. I have never worked at Aerohio but I did spend some time with Tim and Sherry on occasion. They both struck me as caring and responsible people. Tim had a business outside of skydiving and to think that the only reason someone would go into this business is money, clearly hasn't been jnvolved in that side of it. Especially in the northern areas. I find it impossible to believe that this behavior would have been acceptable there(or anywhere) as business as usual. If it was, why hasn't this happened sooner? The ugly truth is, that an individual fucked up and nobody caught it. I'm sure this individual has to live in their own personal hell for being responsible for what happened and I doubt anyone can imagine how terrible that must be. I'm not excusing it, just recognizing. Seems to me, a prudent eval of the facts, a bit of cohesiveness among the membership and a real desire to improve things instead of unnecessary fingerpointing might improve the situation. Leave the irrational ridiculous speculation for the courts, they seem to be pretty fucking good at it.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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..... Seems to me, a prudent eval of the facts, a bit of cohesiveness among the membership and a real desire to improve things instead of unnecessary fingerpointing might improve the situation. Leave the irrational ridiculous speculation for the courts, they seem to be pretty fucking good at it.

__________________________________

+1 ...especially on all the finger pointing, blaming, name calling, crap on this and other related threads.

My question is, How can we as a group help SE?? And then, how can we assure this never happens again?

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[fencebuster 7]

IMO we can help SE and UPT and whoever else manufactures Tandem gear by following the manufacturers' requirements that we all agreed to, to start with, when we received the rating. If back-to-backs do not allow you to do the job correctly, ask not to be manifested back-to-back and raise the issue with the dzo as a SAFETY issue. Rare will be the DZO who will not agree to act more safely when squarely presented with the issue by an I. Spend a minute with your student and actually talk to them about their rexpectations; while you are speaking to them, properly gear them up, and brief them (hopefully, again) about the dive flow and what they can expect on THEIR skydive. Many people may come to the DZ looking for the carni ride, but we are instructors responsible for safety and professionalism as well as making at least an effort to "sell" skydiving to a prospective candidate.

I did my first tandem as a student as a 51 year old guy looking for the "bucket list" entry, but my experience made me come back and try AFF. I progressed, receieved my D license and my Coach, AFFi and TI rating following USPA's directions and the recommendations of my DZO and senior staff.

As instructors, we are paid to teach and promote the sport as a reasonably safe extreme sport when you follow the rules. And the first thing we need to do as Instructors is FOLLOW THE RULES with our niaive and inexperienced tandem and AFFI students relying on us for a safe and professional experience. Once you start cutting one corner, the next corner is as good as cut and you are on a slippery slope to an incident or worse, an accident. That is my $.02.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Excellent Response!! Honest and well spoken. See how easy that was?? Not once did he slam anyone or point fingers or name call. I'm impressed! Thank you.

More of the same now.... please!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[tkhayes 126]

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...it's almost as amazing to see how the blame is put on anyone and everyone that can be tied in with this horrible and completely preventable tragedy....

yes Tim and Sherry are 'nice people', but someone died on their watch. They are to blame because of a culture at their dropzone that allowed tandems to get in an airplane without a harness properly done up. My understanding is that this was the 'norm' for some TI's and some passengers on the DZ, but of course, that will not likely be admitted by anyone after the fact.

When the space shuttle blew up, it was an o-ring, but the investigation that followed found flaws in the the systems and processes all the way up to the top of the food chain. Every accident is a chain of events, and can be prevented by breaking that chain at any point. In this case, that INCLUDES Tim and Sherry.

They left Ted Strong to stand alone, they accepted and took NO responsibility. 'nice people' or not, that is something that makes them 'fuckheads', and the accident, which had nothing to do with Ted Strong, is now (possibly) bringing down Strong Enterprises, and they certainly do not seem to be doing anything to help out.

That also makes them fuckheads.

"Parable;"- My Uncle Fred is a nice guy too. He would give you the shirt off his back, loan you money, help you build that garage in your back yard, put his kids through college, worked hard his whole life. He a 'great guy'. But he has this problem with groping young children. That makes him a FUCKHEAD, despite everything else that he might do.

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The ugly truth is, that an individual fucked up and nobody caught it.

Absofuckinglutely! So who is to blame for not catching it? My point exactly. responsibility is shared amongst MANY people on the DZ, from the DZO, to the people who trained her, to the TI that geared her up, to the TI himself, the cameraperson, the other TI's on that load, and for that matter, even the other skydivers on that load for not speaking up.

No one gets out of an airplane with a tandem harness that looks like hers did....UNLESS that method of putting a tandem harness on a student was 'normal' and had been seen many times before; accepted in the 'culture' on the Dropzone as the way things were done.

[marks2065 0]

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total disagreement unless he was the TI on this fatal jump

No, the DZO is responsible for his employees and how they operate. If the Ti was not currant it was HIS responsibility to make him get currant. If the TI was not following the correct procedure it was HIS responsibility to correct it. The TI screwed up and so did the DZO.

[utahsteve1 0]

This dumbing down of the system of requirements for instructors was what some of us were bitching about, when did RWS drop the AFF minimum, over 15 years ago? Due to strongs market pressure and lower bar? It took us over 20 years, then bam, 2 drops. 15 years then bam, cypres firings. I/we warned about this potential. Now we've got kids with coach saying they want to get the tandem rating 1st because they want to build their skills to get the AFF rating and make money at the same time. And the no-teeth regulations say OK! Are you seeing these tandem videos? The uspa has about as much regulatory strength as AAA. I've been saying to my candidates for years; 'you try hard enough, you can really fuck this up'. I used to chalk up a lot of the early fatalities to ignorance and evolution. Now our only excuse is stupidity. Now I'm scared... If strong has to go down to get the tandem bar raised to where it was in the past or even higher, don't let the screen door hit 'em in the ass....

Utah

[normiss 622]

I'd really be NEGLIGENT if my DZO had to follow my NEGLIGENT ass on the airplane every time to check the straps on a harness.

Bottom line, as a TI I am responsible for someone else's life. It is MY responsibility to do that properly and professionally.

[Andy9o8 0]

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When the space shuttle blew up, it was an o-ring, but the investigation that followed found flaws in the the systems and processes all the way up to the top of the food chain.

I believe one of the multiple links in that chain was determined to be a defective O-ring/joint design, which was improved for subsequent missions.
Just saying.

[normiss 622]

Much like the Y strap mod....

TK's point is still very valid.
Don't you check your neighbor's gear prior to exit?
I've caught a few things on others rigs before...it's part of our overall safety minded approach. We look out for each other as a DZ.
I've been impressed a number of times at the way we come together as a team to handle a busy day, verifying each others work, paying attention to what's going on, not being hesitant to go to the top with issues and know that we have the support of the DZO and the S&TA as well as the rest of the staff.

[utahsteve1 0]

..."The ugly truth is, that an individual fucked up and nobody caught it.
Absofuckinglutely! So who is to blame for not catching it? My point exactly. responsibility is shared amongst MANY people on the DZ, from the DZO, to the people who trained her, to the TI that geared her up, to the TI himself, the cameraperson, the other TI's on that load, and for that matter, even the other skydivers on that load for not speaking up.
No one gets out of an airplane with a tandem harness that looks like hers did....UNLESS that method of putting a tandem harness on a student was 'normal' and had been seen many times before; accepted in the 'culture' on the Dropzone as the way things were done."

There are a lot of 'skydivers' with Tandem ratings. Very few Tandem Masters. We(skydivers) are naturally on the fringe of aviation as a whole and our penchant to be yahoos is evident. I/we have been saying for years that the attitude that must be created during the training of TM's is that when you go from an AFF jump to a Tandem jump, your attitude needs to change from 'I am a skydiver with an instructor rating' to 'I am a professional pilot in command of a commercial passenger flight'. And act accordingly. That is why Tandem must be the LAST rating available, period. With the manufacturers giving it up to the uspa and the uspa having a lot in common with AAA when it comes to regulatory strength, these results are to be expected.

Utah

[utahsteve1 0]

We are reaping what we've sowed. Shame on us collectively for being such dumb fuckin' yahoos.

I am a blond from Kentucky, a dumb ass truckdriving biker. And y'all manage to lower the bar to the point that even a dumb ass like me, who is dumb as a box of rocks with the grades to prove it, has to stand up and say 'are ya finally ready to get your shit together and get this right? Ya dumb fucks? What are ya waiting for, the FAA? Ya dumb fucks...'

Utah

[kallend 1,623]

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I'd really be NEGLIGENT if my DZO had to follow my NEGLIGENT ass on the airplane every time to check the straps on a harness.

Bottom line, as a TI I am responsible for someone else's life. It is MY responsibility to do that properly and professionally.

Just because you do a good and conscientious job doesn't mean other TIs do. The issue is how does the system deal with sloppy TIs. Does the DZO have a responsibility for monitoring the TIs it uses? I think so, just as the DZO is responsible for its planes and the pilots it hires.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 622]

Read my last comments.

[kallend 1,623]

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When the space shuttle blew up, it was an o-ring, but the investigation that followed found flaws in the the systems and processes all the way up to the top of the food chain.

I believe one of the multiple links in that chain was determined to be a defective O-ring/joint design, which was improved for subsequent missions.
Just saying.

The issue was NASA management's decision to override the engineers and make a launch outside the tested design parameters of the booster and its joints. Just as in this case the issue is the decision to make a tandem jump outside the regulatory, operational and design parameters of the system.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[marks2065 0]

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I'd really be NEGLIGENT if my DZO had to follow my NEGLIGENT ass on the airplane every time to check the straps on a harness.

Bottom line, as a TI I am responsible for someone else's life. It is MY responsibility to do that properly and professionally.

yep you are correct the TI is responsible for the passenger and this TI fucked up. The DZO is responsible for the help he hires and to make sure the job is done right, the DZO fucked up by letting an unqualified and / or a lazy TI do tandems for him.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

With so many calling for change, I'd like to offer this question as "devil’s advocate"....

So, we all start doing these things to make positive change in the system. We create a “safety first” minded community of instructors/DZO's/jumpers with everyone watching out for one another. There'll still be the one in a million chance of one individual getting away with a one-time complete act of stupidity! (As we may have seen in this incident)

My point is… the best we can hope for is to get a little better at this. We'll never be able to 100% eliminate the possibility of error. This sport comes with an inherent risk factor. That risk factor includes pilot/instructor error. People entering this or any high risk endeavor need to know and understand this. Period!!

This is a very sad incident with far reaching ramifications for us and aviation as a whole. My question is this... How can we move forward to get us closer to that 100% mark? IMHO, that's where this discussion should be centered.

Putting SE out of business does nothing to help! It only makes room for a less qualified company to move in. Which in turn, creates another “Deep Pocket” target?? The ambulance chasers win again!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Liemberg 0]

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yep you are correct the TI is responsible for the passenger and this TI fucked up. The DZO is responsible for the help he hires and to make sure the job is done right, the DZO fucked up by letting an unqualified and / or a lazy TI do tandems for him.

And that would be pretty much how things would be handled in a non-US legal system. Wouldn't it be helpful for SE and UPT if everybody further down the food chain just signed a waiver stating that they habitually ignored the recommendations for the use of SE and UPT products as they see fit?


Just kidding of course, but OTOH with so little influence, even in the USA how the system will be used in the field, head down tandems, wingsuit tandems, photo-geek tandems with the drogue as the drunks lamppost, photo geek tandems with loose laterals to better be able to geek, etc., etc. How is Ted Strong supposed to monitor and counteract all this other than giving recommendations not to do that stupid s**t? So after all, maybe it isn't such an idiotic idea...

(I have seen someone here boasting about 140kg students/passengers - that must have been a lightweight TI!)

Yet, I can check a passengers harness for proper fit in less than two minutes even if the passenger is on my lap in a cramped C206 and the function of the backstrap does not require rocket science to understand either. Nor why all these free fly hippies nowadays have a bungee between left and right legstrap. In short: one must not drop them, or hire someone who will...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[MarkM 0]

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With so many calling for change, I'd like to offer this question as "devil’s advocate"....

So, we all start doing these things to make positive change in the system.

How about this for a change to the system. How about we have a national skydiving organization that stands up to protect and defend the industry of skydiving when sue happy lawyers come running their way?

[DSE 3]

We have one. Unfortunately, our representatives have attorneys too, and at some point, it becomes cheaper to settle than to defend a point.

In part due to same attorneys, our representatives no longer undertake punitive actions. One guy wrote a nasty letter to the FAA, he loses his membership. An instructor fails to care for his student, he's handed a rating.

It's all about the politics.

[MarkM 0]

Right, they settle, the lawyers get some blood and move on to another kill... which happens to be the lifeblood of DZs, the tandem industry itself.

Wonder how the DZO's that pay group member fees to be "USPA certified"(which no one gives a shit about anyway) feel about that?