First AFF failed really bad! need imput!

[Prior23 0]

Yeah it's funny reading this because I can't really remember my first free fall and it was 10 hours ago, the canopy ride I remember but the free fall was so much like nothing I have ever experienced, although I did everything my instructor wanted me to do, I feel like I was a mindless robot and just did them with no memory lol.

I can't wait until I start to calm down on free fall and really build some memories!

B.A.S.E. #1734

[skydiverbry 0]

Then you will have something you'll never forget....I know I have alot that can never be forgotten!



Bry

--------------------------------------------------
Growing old is mandatory.Growing up is optional!!

D.S.#13(Dudeist Skdiver)

[ridestrong 1]

Also just curious if you did a tandem first? It can help get a lot of those first jump jitters out of the way. AFF is a fun experience and even though there are only a few things you have to remember to do during your dive flow it can feel like a lot. Just wait till you graduate AFF, you'll love it. Free fall feels 10 times longer and you won't believe how many times you have to check your altimeter to get to your pull altitude. One thing that helped me was watching a lot of AFF videos on youtube. You should also start watching vids of malfunctions and cutaways.

Keep going... and update your jump numbers.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[lowpull 0]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Do NOT do this!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do not come on this web site and ask for advice about your AFF jumps.

I know you think this is the way to go, but the only person you should be talking to is your instructor.

If I found a post be someone I had taken on a jump on here anything like yours I would be livid.

These people have no business giving you advice, any more than you have any business asking for it.

You paid a trained qualified Instructor to teach you to skydive.

Let him (or her) do their job.
Along with the responses you have gotten publicly, I shudder to imagine the PMs you have gotten.

If this is your way to participate in our sport, take up golf,

you have a much better chance of surviving!!!!!

Ralph Nichols
USPA Tandem I/E
Aff I
S/L I/E

[mutumbo 0]

Nt worry about it dude. NONE of my 6 AFF jumps has gone he way i would have liked. Well one did but yeah on the other 5 i really wasnt satisfied with my performance. Fiure out what you did wrong, and fix it nex time is all you can do. Noone is naturally good at throwing themselves out of a perfectly crappy airplane, its just not a normal thing.

Try to focus on deep breaths in and out. Then think about what you want to accomplish and then then just focus on that. That is what seems to help me. And i still LOATHE the ride up and exit. But i just try to focus on what i need to do toget on the next level. Good luck my man :)

Thanatos340(on landing rounds)--
Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet.

[StangMan90 0]

Ralph (May I call you "Ralph"?):

In all fairness and with due respect to your experience and certifications, MOST of the posts in reply have been non-specific and don't truly step on his qualified instructor's advice, but I'm still with you 100% on this: No student should be asking for specific skydiving advice at this point from anyone but his instructor(s). That's just common sense.

Most of the posts in reply have been more about mindset than actual practice (i.e., "relax"). What's wrong with that? Others have been related to personal experiences (not necessarily advice) as a way to provide encouragement. As long as somebody doesn't start telling a student how to skydive per se, I can't see anything wrong with trying to put someone at ease. I hear the same types of things at the DZ from non-instructors and I truly don't consider them to be skydiving-specific bits of advice. I'm sure you'd hear similar things in beginner motorcycle riding instruction (probably just as dangerous as skydiving) or anything else that requires being in the moment at all times in order to learn safely.

All that said, I reiterate that you are 100% correct that skydiving students should only seek skydiving advice from their instructor(s), but I still don't see anything wrong with a non-instructor encouraging a student to relax, especially since all of my instructors have told me the same thing. Also, unless we (students like me) all were to take a vow of silence at the beginning of AFF, it would be impossible to keep us from talking to skydivers at the DZ about our learning experience(s), and after all dropzone.com is pretty much a virtual DZ.

Thank you for your sincere concern for the safety of beginners (and the people around them) and all your hard work to help ensure it. It is reassuring for safety freaks like me.

Joe

simplify

[gzimmermann 0]

Quote: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Do NOT do this!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I always tell my kids to ONLY listen to their teachers. I don't know why they are still alive as they are talking to friends, reading magazines and watching TV but even worse: They use the internet.

[NickDG 23]

>>PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Do NOT do this!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do not come on this web site and ask for advice about your AFF jumps.
I don't agree with that . . .

In a perfect world that would be good advice. But we all know the next sentence that always follows "perfect world."

So here's my advice to him.

Anytime I had to tell an AFF student they were unsuccessful (instructors should never use the "fail" word) I knew I was telling them I was unsuccessful too. It meant that whatever that particular student needed the most I failed to pick up on and supply.

Sure, there are impossible students, but they are very few and far between.

And Ralph, you've been around a good while, and possibly started the same way most did when I started jumping. They looked in the Yellow Pages under "parachute jumping" and just took their chances. And whether they continued jumping or not depended on what DZ they randomly picked, which instructor they got, and how bad they wanted to become skydivers.

If you go with the theory there's no such thing as too much information then it's better today. I have no idea how old the OP is, but even if just 18-21 years old it means they're new to skydiving but not new to life. And I always think the majority of folks can smell bullshit a mile away especially on an internet they basically grew up on.

Anyway, even if these students took your advice, and never asked questions, they all wind up here anyway reading content. So being more constructive and supportive is the only thing left to us . . .

NickD

[dsteveanders86z 0]

no-one's AFF could have gone as bad as that one guy who is on the "when things go wrong" clip where his instructor pulled for him, his riser came detached and sent him tumbling out of instructors grasp, fell back-to-earth, pulled reserve at 2k or something, under a fully functional reserve, and ends up in the power lines, got electrocuted and fell like 40 or 50 feet to the ground....


THAT is a "first AFF failed really bad!"

seriously though, i bet your situation was really scary and i'm glad you are safe man!

[NickDG 23]

I was right behind that guy with another level one student in the Perris Otter. His name was Lutz. And no I didn't teach the FJC that day . . .

And while he did receive a slight flash burn I wouldn't call it "electrocuted." And he didn't fall either. He was hung up in the wires until the fire guys got him down.

NickD

[mgregory 0]

I had a similar experience on my first jump. I was looking at my altimeter but the numbers weren't registering. On the next jump I said the altitude outloud each time. That seemed to help. Also, making more than one jump a day helped me.

AKA MG Hammer Flying Hellfish #834 Son's Of Bacon #1

[Inspired 0]

Quote

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Do NOT do this!!!!!!!!!!!!

but the only person you should be talking to is your instructor

And what if the problem is that he has a really terrible instructor, not that I'm suggesting at all that it's the case here.

You know... somewhere in the world is an instructor deserving the title 'Worst instructor in the world!'. In fact, roughly half of all instructors are below average.

I would be very suspicious of any instructor who forbid me from talking to other instructors or experienced skydivers
about my experience. I've been around long enough to know better. Of course, I would ALSO talk to my instructor about any and all concerns I have, and I would be honest with my instructor about who I talk to and what I've heard from them. But tell me not to talk to others... and you're fired.

[grannyinthesky 0]

Quote

Quote

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Do NOT do this!!!!!!!!!!!!

but the only person you should be talking to is your instructor

And what if the problem is that he has a really terrible instructor, not that I'm suggesting at all that it's the case here.

You know... somewhere in the world is an instructor deserving the title 'Worst instructor in the world!'. In fact, roughly half of all instructors are below average.

I would be very suspicious of any instructor who forbid me from talking to other instructors or experienced skydivers
about my experience. I've been around long enough to know better. Of course, I would ALSO talk to my instructor about any and all concerns I have, and I would be honest with my instructor about who I talk to and what I've heard from them. But tell me not to talk to others... and you're fired.

Learning to skydive is serious, deadly serious. If a student can't trust their instructors with their lives, he/she needs a new instructor, not advice from dz.com.

"safety first... and What the hell.....
safety second, Too!!! " ~~jmy

POPS #10490

[lowpull 0]

I did not forbid any one to do anything. I told the OP to NOT ask for advice on the web.
No where did this person say anything,positive or negative, about his instructor. So, his problem is decidedly NOT the quality or level of the instruction he recieved.
My problem is asking for advice from complete strangers on the internet on a life or death subject.

I know a thing or 2 about tandem skydiving. And I am aware this has nothing to do with tandem, but I am using this as an example.
I earned my R/W I/E rating from some of the hands down best of the best.
My course in 2001 had people like Paul Rafferty, Micheal Eliot, Todd Spillers, and TK Donle (along with Bill Booth). There were some world class skydivers and Instructors there. The level of teaching at this course was phenonemal.
About 2 years after I had my rating, some one came across a video on the internet posted by someone I had taken on a skydive. I got a PM on this website by someone with 100 jumps on what I did wrong.
I can only imagine what the OP has been advised to do.
I have personally overheard 2 students at my dz discuss how they read on the internet, (this website) about how to perform on a level 2, and how they liked the dz.com version better than what they were being taught.
I refuse to apologize for taking the stand I have on this. There are too many people that are looking to be told what they think they want to hear because they can't do what they are being taught.

We have a student right now that has a built in excuse for everything that goes wrong on a jump.
No flair on the landing, "well see what happenend is I was trying a new flair technique, and It was soft mud over there , so I knew I was going to be ok. Plus, I can always PLF nex time I forget to flair"

Anyone catch the contadiction there? WhenI called them ,on it, more excuses.
I am not your typical safety Nazi. I am the one that tries to make the worst student succeed.
I was the absolute worst student ever whenI started, so I know how bad it can be to try so hardand still not get it.
I want every single student to do well and go on the make 10000 jumps.
But askng for advice on here is simply NOT the way to do it.
I care way too to not say something about this. And damned if I come of as a little bit of a hard ass because of it.
Let me be an asshole, and not see someone get hurt because of it.

peace

ralph

[elgue 0]

Hey, thanks to everybody for your replies.

To answer some questions, yes this was my very first jump. I haven’t done any tandem or wind tunnel before (I thought before trying the AFF about doing the wind tunnel thing but where I live there is none, which sucks).

Hey Lowpull, I understand your concerns and believe me that I am not gonna make a decision just over an internet forum. I needed it to know if this had happened before. Now I know there is something call sensorial overload (I can do a little research).
My jump master didn’t even mentioned there was such a thing; He just told me that I would have to repeat the jump (which I don’t mind), Did he forget to tell me about sensorial overload? Did he care if I knew? Who knows? But the truth is that I would not make a decision on continuing or stopping just because a person with a Master or instructor title is telling me to do so nor I would stop or continue just because someone just advised me to do it in a e-forum.

[NickDG 23]

>>If a student can't trust their instructors with their lives, he/she needs a new instructor, not advice from dz.com
How, may I ask, would a student know their instructor was sub-par? We actually tell students to seek another instructor in case of personality conflicts, but other than that, they really have no basis to know.

I'll bet several of Ted Mayfield's students thought he was a God right up until they bounced.

I've seen a few cases here over the years where a student pops up with "Hey, my instructor said X and it sounds funny to me." And several people suggested a new Instructor. And they were right. Sometimes it's the same bone headed stuff I used to hear AFF course candidates think was correct. And I can only imagine now that AFF certification is so inbred it's probably worse.

In a similar vein it's like people who post that skydivers should never ever sue other skydivers. Hell, what kind of rose colored glasses are they wearing? I wish it was like that, but it just isn't, and I've seen too much outright negligence over the years.

Like DZOs doing maintenance on A/C without A&P licenses (one time that BS almost cost me a leg), guys teaching AFF without ratings or any instructor training at all and really sucking at it, students being put out on home built non-TSO'd gear. I can't even recall it all.

One guy, a richie rich type and well known organizer had an idea to hold a Tandem deal off the DZ for a bunch of co-workers and clients he knew. He rented a bunch of tandem rigs from various DZs and hired some TMs. The thing was being held out in the desert. It sounded like fun, so I showed up as a TM.

On the first load I grabbed a tandem rig and started looking it over. I pulled out the packing data card and something was odd. I saw my signatures on the card as over the course of the last few years I had repacked that particular rig. And my name was also in the last slot. It was my name all right, but it was a pretty crappy forgery of my signature. It turned out the organizer checked the rigs, found that particular one out of date, so he fixed it. Him and I had a long talk about that one. And I schooled him on how to properly pencil pack, "Man up and sign your own god damn name, not someone else's name!" Then I pulled the handle dumping the reserve and left.

But if you don't believe those things and much worse don't go on all the time, well, you should. And there are some "skydivers" who deserve to be sued into oblivion simply because it's not legal to walk them out back of the hangar and shoot them . . .

NickD

[johnmatrix 21]

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Anyway, even if these students took your advice, and never asked questions, they all wind up here anyway reading content. So being more constructive and supportive is the only thing left to us . . .

Agreed 100%.

[ridestrong 1]

Quote

Quote

Anyway, even if these students took your advice, and never asked questions, they all wind up here anyway reading content. So being more constructive and supportive is the only thing left to us . . .

Agreed 100%.

Also agree!

>>"Then I pulled the handle dumping the reserve and left."

Hahaha... that's good stuff.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[JohnMitchell 14]

What was wrong with what I told him?

[dsteveanders86z 0]

Quote

I was right behind that guy with another level one student in the Perris Otter. His name was Lutz. And no I didn't teach the FJC that day . . .

And while he did receive a slight flash burn I wouldn't call it "electrocuted." And he didn't fall either. He was hung up in the wires until the fire guys got him down.

NickD

Oh i thought he did fall. but yea, either way bad news! what happened to his risers/harness? why did it detatch when he pulled his main?

[amstalder 0]

Quote

Oh i thought he did fall. but yea, either way bad news! what happened to his risers/harness? why did it detatch when he pulled his main?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV-wWegKpvs 0:25ish

He cut away....

[dsteveanders86z 0]

Quote

Quote

Oh i thought he did fall. but yea, either way bad news! what happened to his risers/harness? why did it detatch when he pulled his main?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV-wWegKpvs 0:25ish

He cut away....

oh dang!

[NickDG 23]

I guess I'm the resident "explainer" on this one, so here it goes again . . .

The JM's were Moley (MS) and Rocky (RS). Funny, but we just heard from Rocky last week. He's not jumping anymore and is now an NRA gun instructor! (This incident had nothing to do with his leaving jumping, and he ran his own DZ for awhile after this incident occurred.)

At pull time Lutz (the level one student) reached in and grabbed his cutaway handle instead of his BOC main ripcord handle. (This was when they were still using ripcords). Moley tried very hard to stop Lutz from pulling the cutaway handle but couldn't. He then deployed Lutz's main correctly figuring his main would depart activating his RSL and deploying the reserve.

And here's where it all really started going wrong.

When Lutz's main left the RSL extended but the snap shackle on the RSL popped open and did not activate the reserve. (We stopped using those snap shackles on student gear after that, but it was normal at the time). Up jumpers still use them on experienced gear so I suppose you could call it a one in a million event.

Then two other things occurred. Rocky, on the reserve side had his head buried and wasn't paying enough attention and didn't exactly ride completely through the opening like he should have.

The second thing is now Lutz has no AAD back up. At Perris, at the time, they were only using a pin puller type AAD on the mains. Yeah, I know. They were already doing that when I went to work there and I argued 'till I was blue in the face over it. They changed over to Cypres' on the reserves after this event.

Moley, god bless him, knew what the situation was and didn't turn and track away. It's up to debate whether Lutz would have ever woke up to the fact he needed to manually pull his reserve handle. As this wasn't exactly a situation that was covered in his FJC except in a when in doubt whip it out sort of way.

So Moley tried to get to him. but when they started getting low he began making pulling motions on his on reserve handle in Lutz's sight line and Lutz clicked on to that and finally pulled his own reserve handle.

I saw the reserve in the air and also the flash when Lutz hit the power lines just as I was landing, but I had my eyeballs on my own student and knew it wasn't him.

That was a day I'll never forget. And it was the kind of day that gives an instructor night sweats . . .

And yes, Lutz was a lawyer!

NickD

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

you hardliners who are going to say SIUCC and say "tell it like it is" are missing the point entirely. This is not a wishy-washy, don't-hurt-little-Johnny's-feelings issue. This is an approach that focuses on success, not failure.

perhaps you assess the student and decide, based on their personality, which approach is best for them - will they be motivated to try harder if you use the word "FAIL"? or will it discourage them? One size never fits all (and yes, this statement contains it's own irony).

I suspect it's closer to a 50/50 split than you might think if the comments on the topic from last time are an indicator. On the other hand, those that will motivate from the 'tell it like it is' approach likely already take a 'repeat' or 'extension' or 'retrain' or 'refocus' internally as a FAIL without the instructor using the word. So I'd avoid that tack as a generic position unless convinced otherwise. But for that group, they would be better served by speaking to them in their comfort zone rather than forcing them into yours.

There really are people out there that don't obsess over semantics and when confronted by those that do get very frustrated. Then you do them a disservice by (to them) mincing words - regardless of your good intentions.

Personally, if it were me (way back then) I'd like this approach - "Hey, that was fun, sorry, but we have to go up again and work on (or even do better) a couple specific things." But then first go over everything that went right the first time. Then retrain/emphasize how to do the rest correctly while minimizing what specifically went wrong so the student doesn't practice the wrong thing in their mind - instead just practice it correctly and answer their questions honestly.

But, if they ask directly, here's a very likely scenario:

"Hey Pops - Did I fail that jump?"

answer 1 smiling - "sure you did, it's no big deal and we'll get it next jump, here's what I'd like you to work on....." (validated and listening intently)

answer 2 serious face - "I don't like to use that word, we call it ....." (zzzzzzoning out)

what do you do?

IMHO -

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[amstalder 0]

Hey Nick,

Thanks for explaining the rest of the story. Obviously, I only knew the basics that you can gather from the video. Its certainly interesting to hear it from the instructor POV.