12 hours. Finally. But no badge...

[fasted3 0]

Lots of places. The time adds up quick in a winsuit.

But what do I know?

[kimemerson 7]

yeah, it's a hair splitter between "must hold" and "required" but they amount to the same thing. I'd love to have a conversation with the Board on the topic of logic with regard to this one. If someone can skydive without a license, can accumulate hours and jumps, both without a license, then how can these accomplishments be dismissed because of a lack of license? What is the purpose of the badge and the wings? Are they simply to recognize the accomplishment of what they ostensibly represent in their names? Is there any hidden or unstated purpose for these awards beyond the recognition of an accumulation of hours and jumps? Or is it all explicit and straightforward? You do 1,000 jumps and that's what USPA rewards, no less, no more? As regards just this issue - of awarding recognition for accomplishments - what the hell would having a D license do that not having one can't do as well? Jumps is jumps. 1,000 brilliant jumps or 1,000 you-suck-at-skydiving jumps. Jumps is jumps. Period. For christ's sake, USPA, give the guy his fucking badge. He's willing to pay for it AND he's apparently done the work. Give it up, already!

[Airman1270 0]

...give the guy his ....... badge...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Um... er... Appreciate the enthusiasm, but everyone has been real nice. It matters, a little. But I'm still doing better than most of the people in Haiti, even before last month.

Cheers,
Jon

[JohnMitchell 14]

F@#$ 'em.

I never got my Gold Wings. I haven't asked for half of the awards I qualified for. You've done the jumps. That's all that counts. You're welcome on my load anytime.

Why don't you get that D license and be done with it?

[topdocker 0]

Quote

I'd love to have a conversation with the Board on the topic of logic with regard to this one.

You are having a conversation with a BOD member! OK, mostly I'm just listening here.

I was not on the Board when this was put in, so I can't answer why it is this way, but it can be revisited in the future. While it might be too soon to get on the agenda for the Febuary BOD meeting, we can discuss the issue and look into it.

I appreciate everyone's input on this!
Craig Stapleton,
Pacific Regional Director

Jump more, post less!

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Lots of places. The time adds up quick in a winsuit.

What kind of math do you use? That works out to over 43,200 sec. in less than 500 jumps.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[sebcat 0]

Quote

What kind of math do you use? That works out to over 43,200 sec. in less than 500 jumps.

Here's some math for you
500 jumps and 12 hrs is a total of 43200 seconds, yes.

Let's say he did 200 FS jumps á 65 seconds per jump before he started wingsuiting,
so 65*200 = 13000 seconds, that leaves us with 43200-13000=30200 seconds over
300 wingsuit jumps. That's an average of 30200/300=100.67 seconds per wingsuit flight.

I've never flown a wingsuit before, but a quick look here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3226142
tells me that it's not impossible to get a flight time over 100 secs when
flying a wingsuit under normal circumstances.

So 12hrs in 500 jumps, quite possible. Let's say he has 499 at the end of
one season so he applies for the 12 hour award with less than 500 jumps, also
possible. Maybe he started flying his wingsuit at 150 jumps. Not advised, but possible.

So what did your calculations add up to?

EDIT:
So I looked at his profile, and it stated 323 wingsuit jumps. Assuming the other
177 jumps where FS (they might not have been, but this is all hypothetical) the math works out to:
177*65=11505 seconds of FS in 177 jumps
43200-11505=31695 seconds over 323 wingsuit jumps
31695/323=98.13 sec / wingsuit jump
As long as the average time is a bit more than 98.13 secs / wingsuit jump, it's possible to reach 12 hrs in less than 500 jumps.

[popsjumper 2]

I sent the following to my Regional Director, Tom Noonan:

"Tom,
There is some discussion going on in Dropzone.com about performance awards and the requirement for D license to receive those awards.

The discussion is on the General Skydiving Discussions forum and the thread title is: "12 hours. Finally. But no badge..."

I would like for you to read the discussion and take up this issue with the USPA, as best you see fit, to get the D license requirement removed as a condition of recognition.

Thanks in advance,

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[kimemerson 7]

Quote

Quote

I'd love to have a conversation with the Board on the topic of logic with regard to this one.

You are having a conversation with a BOD member! OK, mostly I'm just listening here.

I was not on the Board when this was put in, so I can't answer why it is this way, but it can be revisited in the future. While it might be too soon to get on the agenda for the Febuary BOD meeting, we can discuss the issue and look into it.

I appreciate everyone's input on this!
Craig Stapleton,
Pacific Regional Director

I understand that there has to be procedure, but isn't this so simple that it defies logic to keep it any longer? Can't it be attributed to something easy to remedy? Can't it just be changed to reflect a rational application? It isn't a BSR so I can't imagine that it falls under any restrictions of a Board decision. It isn't waiverable or non-waiverable. It's arbitrary and even harmful. Harmful because it acts as a deterrent to accomplishment if a skydiver, for whatever reason, simply does not possess or want to possess a D license in order to qualify.

I understand that you weren't there when this bone-headed idea was made, but can you shed some light on the mentality of the Board when they were around to make it? What might their rationale be? What are we, the dissenters, missing by not being privy to such discussion as was required to make this rule? And what would be so difficult about simply making the clerical change? Call it a typo for all I care. Because without any comprehension of how this rule makes sense, I can't see why any procedure is needed to remedy it. I don't believe the BOD needs to waste its time and my money on this. Someone walk into the appropriate office, get on the computer and change that damn thing. It's straight-forward and blatantly apparent to anyone paying attention that it is a senseless rule which discredits real accomplishment by placing irrational standards on an applicant's goals. If USPA chooses to stand by this requirement, I'd love to hear a defense for it. I feel about this the way I feel about the existence of winter: No one asked me and if they had...

What's your own opinion on the requirement, and how might you address it should it come up at a BOD meeting?

Thanks

[topdocker 0]

Quote

If USPA chooses to stand by this requirement, I'd love to hear a defense for it. I feel about this the way I feel about the existence of winter: No one asked me and if they had...

What's your own opinion on the requirement, and how might you address it should it come up at a BOD meeting?

Thanks

I'm not sure I can defend it, and really that's not my purpose in discussing it here. I am sure there was some sound reasoning applied to this rule when it was made. Like you, I'd like to hear what the reasoning was and see if it still applies.

What I see with this type of restriction is that it hurts some of our members, and that connot be a positive for our organization in the long run. If this comes up at the BOD, I would have to be convinced that this is somehow a positive for our organization and for our membership. Right now, I just don't have all the facts- I have what is presented here, and an emotional response to it, but need to hear the logic behind this rule. (I don't know what I don't know)

Unfortunately or fortunately, we can't change rules simply by retyping them when we see something we don't like. skydiving is a simple activity, but look at all the procedures you have to go through to make that one jump tomorrow- drive to dz, get gear out, manifest, check gear, dirt dive, go to loading area, check gear, climb in plane, be reminded of dive in plane, visualize dive, check gear, climb out, actually do the skydive, open, check canopy and airspace, fly pattern, land, gather gear, safely make way back to packing area.

What I can tell you is contact your Regional Director and any other BOD members, and let them know how you feel (nicely, please!). We really are not a group operating in a vacuum- we want input from the members.

Blue skies!
Craig

Jump more, post less!

[kimemerson 7]

[fasted3 0]

Time is from Alti-Track. The program that comes with it does better math than me. I did start wingsuiting a bit early, and I have several flights longer than 3 minutes. I very seldom get less than 2 minute flights.

But what do I know?

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

So what did your calculations add up to?

My calculations added up to possible but not probable. 3 minutes from 12,500 means you are falling at 37 mph.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[PhreeZone 15]

Yep, 37mph averages have been possible for some time in a wingsuit now. I was with someone on an intro suit flight last year that they were averaging around 55 mph on their 5th flight. I still had tons of power left in the suit and floated up and away at break off and I have a really old suit.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Yep, 37mph averages have been possible for some time in a wingsuit now. I was with someone on an intro suit flight last year that they were averaging around 55 mph on their 5th flight. I still had tons of power left in the suit and floated up and away at break off and I have a really old suit.

Thats not fair, I used to fall like a man hole cover.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

As an example, a lot of people believe a "B" license is required for night jumps. No license is required for a night jump. It's just considered sage advice.

Mind you, Im a newbie at this stuff... but you are required to have A license of some sort to do a night jump. If you didnt have a license, you're a 'student' and all student jumps have to be landed before sunset.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[DSE 3]

Quote

Yep, 37mph averages have been possible for some time in a wingsuit now.

"Possible", but not at all "common."

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Quote

As an example, a lot of people believe a "B" license is required for night jumps. No license is required for a night jump. It's just considered sage advice.

Mind you, Im a newbie at this stuff... but you are required to have A license of some sort to do a night jump. If you didnt have a license, you're a 'student' and all student jumps have to be landed before sunset.

Please read:
1009-1010 SIM Section 3-1 E 2

1009-1010 SIM Section 6-4 B 1

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

Quote

Quote

As an example, a lot of people believe a "B" license is required for night jumps. No license is required for a night jump. It's just considered sage advice.

Mind you, Im a newbie at this stuff... but you are required to have A license of some sort to do a night jump. If you didnt have a license, you're a 'student' and all student jumps have to be landed before sunset.

Please read:
1009-1010 SIM Section 3-1 E 2

1009-1010 SIM Section 6-4 B 1

Im not THAT old, my sim is the 2009-2010, didnt realize they had them a thousand years ago!!

But, those futher prove the point I was making, yes you do have to have the required license.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[racerman 0]

I've been jumping since 1976 with over 5,000 jumps.
During that time I've trained, JM, did demos etc all without a D license. I would like to have all the accolades that go with the time and money I've invested but I really don't need to have a cheap assed pin (have you seen them ?) And yes,I've been a member of USPA the whole time.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

I've been jumping since 1976 with over 5,000 jumps.
During that time I've trained, JM, did demos etc all without a D license. I would like to have all the accolades that go with the time and money I've invested but I really don't need to have a cheap assed pin (have you seen them ?) And yes,I've been a member of USPA the whole time.

It seems the only people the call them “a cheap assed pin” are the ones that don’t have them. But if a person doesn’t feel the need to apply for them that’s cool to but don’t bad mouth what someone else might take pride in.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Airman1270 0]

Mind you, Im a newbie at this stuff... but you are required to have A license of some sort to do a night jump. If you didnt have a license, you're a 'student' and all student jumps have to be landed before sunset...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

It had been my understanding that a "student" was someone who had not graduated from the basic instruction course. After graduation you were beginning your journey as an "experienced" skydiver, license or not, and were free to jump with anyone who'd have you on the load. (What today is described as "coaching" used to be called "jumping with the new guy.")

I made my first night jump with just over 90 jumps & no license at all, but it was at the DZ where I had trained. The following year I began jumping at another DZ and they didn't make an issue of my lack of a license.

Later that year I was traveling from Georgia - New York and stopped at Hartwood, VA. I had more than 100 jumps and was current but they made me do a supervised solo because I didn't have a license. I got the "A" soon afterward.

I was a part-time jumper, driving 3+hours out of state to jump. I was not immersed in DZ life, almost never socialized with other skydivers, and had no idea why a license was such a big deal. The subject had never come up. In some ways I still don't understand why it matters, but then I've never felt the need to misrepresent my experience. I thought my logbook was all the proof I needed.

Cheers,
Jon

[EDYDO 0]

Quote

I really don't need to have a cheap assed pin (have you seen them ?)

I took a quick snapshot of the 12 Hour FreeFall Badge. Decide for yourself.

Ed

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

I really don't need to have a cheap assed pin (have you seen them ?)

I took a quick snapshot of the 12 Hour FreeFall Badge. Decide for yourself.

Ed

It seems they have changed over the years.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I really don't need to have a cheap assed pin (have you seen them ?)

I took a quick snapshot of the 12 Hour FreeFall Badge. Decide for yourself.

Ed

It seems they have changed over the years.

Sparky

The bottom one is what I have, which I received in the late 90's.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban