3 rings reversed???

[likestojump 3]

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Pulling that thing down and stowing it behind your head increases the risk that it could entangle with your helmet should you need to cutaway. This risk increases if you jump a camera.

I know of at least one death that was a direct result of this.

But of course. Parachuting is not safe. Every component , every action has a risk associated with it.

I have heard people swear off Vectors because they felt that meshless reserve PCs were black death. I have heard people want nothing but Racers because they offer the most superior pin protection. Some people have said that non-breakaway ringsites are suicidal. Early mini risers broke, so the integrity risers were created - and they hungup. BASE jumpers eliminated the slider for faster and more consistent openings and in return lineovers followed. Rapide links are weaker than slinks, but the slinks are much more susceptible to abrasion.

Every component has risks associated with it.

I can bring up many more examples, but the bottom line is that if you want the absolute safety, you need to stop jumping outta them planes.

[billvon 2,454]

>Specifically, they are stronger.

Stronger but more likely to have a release failure at higher loadings. So there are pluses and minuses. If you drag your rig a lot while packing, don't inspect it much and don't replace your risers often, integrity risers could help prevent an unexpected riser release.

[tdog 0]

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They are seen pretty often in the BASE world, but that could be because they look cool, and you dont rub the little white loop on the ground when you drag your container.

Specifically, they are stronger.

I don't think, but I don't know as a fact, that they were adopted in BASE due to strength. I think they were adopted because:

1) You never need to cut away under canopy unless you are in a tree or chased by a cop.

2) The lack of shiny metal is good for covert ops.

3) A BASE rig can look more like a backpack, less like a parachute, to the untrained, especially from a distance, if it does not have the "trademark" three rings.

4) SOP is to drag your BASE container while stowing lines in the tail pocket. Reversing the rings puts the fragile little loop in a safe spot.

I think any extra strength is just a nice side effect....

[tdog 0]

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I have them like this on my Atom Axis..

I'm not sure why they are like this though lol

I hope you are not "lol" too much about your lack of knowledge about your gear.


I would do a quick test at home. Lay down on a table, arch, belly to earth. Have your head sticking off the table just enough that the three rings are not touching the table in any way.

Have a friend pull both risers straight up, maybe about 10 degrees off plumb favoring your feet.

Cutaway (making sure you don't disturb the risers by moving on the table, let them do their job as if in freefall)

Do the risers separate from your rig 10 times in a row?

I put a BASE canopy with reversed risers in a Vector for a few test jumps. I did the same test and 10 times in a row the risers were stuck until I either pulled them off with my hands, or my friend started changing the angle of pull to about 30 degrees from horizontal. One time he actually lifted the top half of my body off the table a foot or so...

Your 3 rings need to sit on your shoulder just right to keep your 3 rings safe if you have the reverse risers.

And, it's not just high speed mals (where you are belly to earth) that won't cutaway... Imagine you get tangled in your main and for some reason your foot is in a line. God forbid you are "head down"... You cutaway. Head down, even with the best reverse riser 3ring placement, it might not cut away... Normal risers will. It's rare someone gets tangled up in the canopy, but it happens.

[piisfish 135]

The Parachutes de France rigs are designed for that.

Now my question for Sangi would be : Why an Axis ? Do you do lots of "Style and Accuracy" ?
www.aerazur.com/en/parachute-and-protection/harness-container.html then switch to the right on Atom A (for Axis)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[IanHarrop 37]

an old post from Bill Booth

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1892454#1892454

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[MikeJD 0]

Thomas Sports Equipment briefly supplied reversed risers with its Teardrop containers (including mine) during the nineties. There were reports of some hard cutaways on those rigs, and the risers were recalled and replaced with the 'traditional' configuration, but strengthened with tape.

Whether TSE's design differed from Parachutes de France's, or whether the necessary tolerances weren't met during the riser manufacture, I'm not sure. But it has left me with the impression that the reversed configuration is a more difficult one to get right.

[NovaTTT 1]

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But of course. Parachuting is not safe.

[soapbox]

Man, this is just wrong and I hate hearing this, especially from skydivers. A huge error in logic.

Skydiving has inherent risks and dangers but this is very different from unsafe.

Example: There is risk is shark diving. There is safety is shark-diving in a sturdy, well-maintained shark cage. Shark diving with chum-bait tied all over your body is unsafe.

Safety in risky situations is the result of training, skill, maintenance, decision-making and management.

In our sport, we manage the risks with student and advanced training, gear selection and maintainance, and good decision making. This is safety.

The danger is still present. One can always screw-up, make poor choices, live stupid, etc. Death or severe bodily harm can result from any skydive through factors beyond our control or factors within our control but ignored.

If one is jumping ragged-out, shitty gear, one is being unsafe. If one is attempting skills beyond one's level (20-jump wonder wants to take up wingsuiting), one is being unsafe.

Dangerous and unsafe are not synonymous.

[/soapbox]

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[regulator 0]

I wanted to ask a question about what you just mentioned. I bought a new rig last year. I haven't jumped it at all since I bought and assembled my rig and now that I'm employed again and soon will start jumping again I noticed on my risers it appeared to be some kind of deterioration around the black fabric around the 3 ring area. I haven't jumped this rig once since its been purchased and its sat in my back room next to a window. So from your post it seems like this is normal. My risers are mini-risers.

[tetra316 0]

You should never store your rig near sunlight. UV will degrade materials. Perhaps you are seeing some fading/damage from exposure to sun?

[Halfpastniner 0]

Post a pic! and yea you should avoid direct sunlight with your gear.

BASE 1384

[mjosparky 3]

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But the 3rings work better and faster and are less prone to malfunction than the Capewells, R3s, etc.

Any replacement for the split slider is slower and more prone to cause problems.

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Split sliders are great.

Yes they are.

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Unless you misrig them

More people have died behind a miss-rigged hand deploy than a split slider. In fact I am not aware of even one.

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unless you don't watch for the wear

Lame, can be said about any piece of gear.

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unless you are rushing to make the next load

Again lame, again goes for any part of the packing process.

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and of course - unless you don't care about fashion :)

Fashion has never saved a life but it has cost a few.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,454]

>The danger is still present.

And that's the bottom line. Skydiving is a dangerous sport; you can easily be injured or killed. It is also unlike most other sports out there in that if you do not act, or if your equipment fails, you will likely die. That's in stark contrast to skiing, skateboarding etc where you will simply come to a stop (perhaps losing some skin/teeth in the process.)

Yes, you can go for safety, but even the safest skydivers die on occasion due to the nature of the sport. Maintaining your gear, knowing your limits, getting good education, exercising good judgment can reduce but not eliminate the risk. In the end, skydiving is not a safe sport on the scale of modern sports, and it's something we as skydivers have to accept.

[NovaTTT 1]

Easily killed or injured?

I don't know how you skydive, then. One who is careless, thoughtless, doesn't maintain gear and is basically a HUA skydiver can easily be killed or injured.

Any skydiver worth ½ his salt cannot be easily killed. Man, you make it sound like the romanticized version of the Wild West, Bill.

In my time, in addition to skydiving, I've spent a lot of time white-water canoeing and rafting, spelunking, scuba and free diving, motorcycling, hunting, shooting - hell, plenty of "dangerous" things. But the presence of danger never made these things inherently unsafe.

Safety comes from managing risks and dangers. One can never eliminate them - driving can be a deadly activity - but one can manage them to a better than acceptable level. One should manage them to an excellent level.

When you say that one can easily be killed skydiving, I think of my wife and her fear of firearms. To her, a firearm is as deadly and dangerous as a living viper.

But that's not realistic.

We're not handing out rigs on the streetcorner to any passerby who will take one and giving them a lift ticket.

There is inherent danger in skydiving because we are plummeting toward the earth from a higher altitude than we can surivive unassisted. That's the principal reason.

We manage that risk of death with training, gear selection and maintenance, and good judgment.

The most powerful selector in our sport, as I'm sure you know, is the "good judgment" metric. Complacency, stupidity, carelessness, laziness - these are the killers in our sport.

Skydiving would be perfectly safe without skydivers!

Another .02

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[tetra316 0]

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Easily killed or injured?

Yes, simiply don't pull and most likely you will die. To me that means easily killed. Skydiving is one of the few sports in the world where, unless you DO something each skydive you will die. Period.

But then again if you need to tell yourself skydiving is safe in order to get on the place then by all means go ahead. Just don't try and tell someone who has no clue that skydiving is safe. That is where I take issue.

[Beatnik 2]

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Yes, simiply don't pull and most likely you will die. To me that means easily killed. Skydiving is one of the few sports in the world where, unless you DO something each skydive you will die. Period.

They have devices for that. So that statement isn't entirely accurate. Just pointing that out.

[tetra316 0]

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Yes, simiply don't pull and most likely you will die. To me that means easily killed. Skydiving is one of the few sports in the world where, unless you DO something each skydive you will die. Period.

They have devices for that. So that statement isn't entirely accurate. Just pointing that out.

AADs are not 100% accurate. But hey if you want to take that gamble...

[billvon 2,454]

>I don't know how you skydive, then.

By accepting the risks and doing what I can to minimize them. The day I think skydiving is a safe sport will be the day I should probably switch to, say, rugby.

>One who is careless, thoughtless, doesn't maintain gear and is basically
>a HUA skydiver can easily be killed or injured.

Yep. So can one who is careful, thoughtful, maintains their gear and uses good judgment.

>Any skydiver worth ½ his salt cannot be easily killed.

Tell that to Tommy Piras, Sandy Wambach, Bob Holler, John Appleton, Shannon Embry and Roger Nelson. They were worth more than half their salt, and did not die due to carelessness, neglect or bad judgment.

>When you say that one can easily be killed skydiving, I think of my
>wife and her fear of firearms. To her, a firearm is as deadly and
>dangerous as a living viper. But that's not realistic.

Good example. One of the differences, of course, is that if you get freaked out you can put the gun down and walk away. If you get freaked out during a skydive, there's no way to hit the reset button and just walk away from it. You have to land.

> Complacency, stupidity, carelessness, laziness - these are the killers in
>our sport.

Agreed 100%.

But there's a converse to that. After every fatality you get the newer jumpers who talk about the incident in terms like "well, he was an idiot; that will never happen to me!" It can - no matter how good, competent, careful and responsible they are.

Which is why skydiving is a dangerous sport.

[Beatnik 2]

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AADs are not 100% accurate. But hey if you want to take that gamble..

I am well aware of the accuracy in AADs. I was pointing out that your statement was inaccurate that is all.

For the record I do not have an AAD in any of the forty rigs I own. So I am willing to take that gamble as well.

[tetra316 0]

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AADs are not 100% accurate. But hey if you want to take that gamble..

I am well aware of the accuracy in AADs. I was pointing out that your statement was inaccurate that is all.

For the record I do not have an AAD in any of the forty rigs I own. So I am willing to take that gamble as well.

You missed the point. The gamble being relying on your AAD to initiate deployment rather than pulling. Which goes back to my point that you are risking death each and every time you skydive, unless you do something to prevent it (ie pull).

[Beatnik 2]

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You missed the point. The gamble being relying on your AAD to initiate deployment rather than pulling. Which goes back to my point that you are risking death each and every time you skydive, unless you do something to prevent it (ie pull).

And you are missing the point I am making with your statement. There are people that have survived a skydive that have done nothing at all. Which makes that statement inaccurate. Of course it is better to actually save your own life than trusting a device to do it. But I can't say that 100% you have to do something because I have seen many people live through skydives that haven't done anything. I don't like the past statement but it is true.

[NovaTTT 1]

>>By accepting the risks and doing what I can to minimize them. The day I think skydiving is a safe sport will be the day I should probably switch to, say, rugby.
I say, the day skydiving is not dangerous will be the day I take up bowling.

I think you are misunderstanding me. You are arguing/speaking from a point where you define "unsafe" the same as you define "dangerous". As I said earlier, these two terms are not synonymous - in theory or in practice. You are describing the application of safety and safe practices to a dangerous activity when you say "what I can to minimize them." That's not something mysterious, is it? You're jumping good gear, well maintained and following your training? That's how we bring safety to a dangerous situation.

When I A.I.R. a rig, I don't do so thinking, "Fuck it! This sport is unsafe! I'll just throw shit around and hope for the best!" Hell no - I carefully inspect and pack the system, and I fully believe my packjobs will open, cleanly and properly. A critical layer of safety has been added for that jumper.

>>a HUA skydiver can easily be killed or injured.

Yep. So can one who is careful, thoughtful, maintains their gear and uses good judgment.

>Any skydiver worth ½ his salt cannot be easily killed.

Tell that to Tommy Piras, Sandy Wambach, Bob Holler, John Appleton, Shannon Embry and Roger Nelson. They were worth more than half their salt, and did not die due to carelessness, neglect or bad judgment.
RIP to those listed, and those not.

I knew Tommy - and he possibly died of carelessness and bad judgment. He chose to not turn on his Cypres and it might have and probably would have saved him, if he survived the collision. BSBD. Same with Sandy - although IIRC she jumped without an AAD. BSBD.

When we say "BSBD", what we mean is sometimes shit happens and that sucks. That's danger. That's attractive for many (most?) of us - that and our confidence in our abilities to work it out.

Those listed weren't jumping without straps fastened. They weren't jumping with handles pushed into pockets or switched across the harness. That's unsafe.

Regardless - it's not "easily" accomplished, unless we're going to define "complacency" as "easily". Look at low alt canopy collisions to understand this. It's easily accomplished if one is complacent or HUA.

But this has been beaten up and down in other threads. Again, I think you're misunderstanding the difference between "unsafe" and "dangerous".

>>But there's a converse to that. After every fatality you get the newer jumpers who talk about the incident in terms like "well, he was an idiot; that will never happen to me!" It can - no matter how good, competent, careful and responsible they are.

Which is why skydiving is a dangerous sport.
There is a natural selection in our sport - those 888 types usually don't make it past the tourist phase.

I have 24 years in the sport - and I know the difference between danger and safety.

But let's be honest - just how dangerous is skydiving? Just because death is a potential outcome doesn't make it all that dangerous. Swimming can be fatal. So can eating. Driving. Etc.

We knowingly enter the arena and learn, make informed choices and have fun while using safe practices.

Going to Safety Day?

Of the 2.9 million jumps last year, only 747 USPA members reported injuries that required medical attention with 16 fatalities. That's .026% for injuries and .00055% for fatalities.

Sounds pretty safe to me, despite the inherent risk. Just because the potential outcome is great, doesn't mean the process is equally dangerous.

Would you play Russian Roulette with a 2-shot derringer? For, say, $1M? No? Of course not - that would be stupidity. But - would you play RR with a 400 shot revolver, with only one live round somewhere in the cylinder? For $1M? That's looking pretty tempting. How about 1 round in a 181250 round cylinder? Damn straight I would!

That's the math on US fatalities - 1 death/181250 skydives, .00055% of total jump #s.

Tetra:

>>Yes, simiply don't pull and most likely you will die. To me that means easily killed. Skydiving is one of the few sports in the world where, unless you DO something each skydive you will die. Period.
Thank you for stating the bleedin' obvious.

I've seen it in action - suicide by skydive and unknown reason for no-pull. I hope to never see it again. But that's not what the sport is about. We're not a Suicide Playground with throngs of depressed and suicidal souls lining up for AFF jumps. And those most at risk for no-pulls (students) are mandated to use AADs, a potentially life-saving device.

And I've never said to *anyone* that skydiving is safe. I have said it can be made safe through training, safe practices and equipment. I've never said skydiving is without risk, however, because it clearly has risks.

What I have said is there is inherent danger in skydiving, the danger of serious injury or death. What I have said is that safety is possible in skydiving when one is trained, uses properly chosen and maintained equipment, and follows his training.

Refer to the figures above, please.


The danger of skydiving is one of the attractions for me. It may be for you, as well. But that doesn't mean one has to be unsafe, either with equipment, training or practice. I say, get out there and jump, have fun and be safe - but remember: Shit Happens. Safe skydiving means, jumping an airworthy rig, jumping within one's limits, and following one's training.

The current atmosphere of, "Don't you ever jump without goggles, gloves, altimeter, AAD, RSL, two audibles and a Skyhook", to me, mirrors the pussyfication of our nation as a whole.

But that's a discussion for SC.

Another, and final, .02



E.T.A. hyperlink

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[regulator 0]

Here is a slightly out of focus pic of my risers I took with my 3 mexapixel camera phone last night. Sorry its the best I could do as far as the fuzziness goes but I did import it into paint and placed a line to where the deterioration is at (or at least my idea of deterioration)

[davelepka 4]

I would need a much better picture to say for sure, but I highly doubt there is a problem there.

It appears to be a brand new rig, so it would have to be a manufacturing defect to be a problem. If it was deterioration, it would not be localized to the 1/4 sq in that you have indicated.

I wouldn't worry about it too much at all. Have a rigger or instrcutor take a look at it before you jump it, but I think they will reach the same conclusion.

Now seeing that you have a brand new rig already bought and paid for, get your ass to the DZ and make a jump. Lift tickets are cheap by comparison.

[tetra316 0]

I do agree with your points. Yes skydiving can be made safer or riskier by our gear choices and actions but it is still a dangerous sport. It is not a "safe" sport. Safe sports are bowling and golfing. You don't risk death playing 'safe' sports.