Cocky/arrogant skydivers.

[AggieDave 6]

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This was about 20 minutes before their load, so it wasn't as I was asking to jump at last minute and was messing up their dive plan

Yes, you were.

If they're going up to work on a specific drill dive, then the 20 minute call is the absolute last minute. They've already dirt dived, mocked up the exit and practiced it a number of times. Probably starting at least 30 minutes prior to you coming to talk them.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Airviking 0]

I'm sure there is more to the exchange than you describe, personality clashes etc.

There was a guy, a young doctor who used to show up at the DZ with his trophy girl friend, and basically take over the place. He'd organize biggish dives and grab the more experienced jumpers. It was basically The Jeff Show. I disliked everything about this yuppy scumbag, but still wanted to get on his dives in the worst way, because when he showed up, it was the only thing going on. One day, I was manifest on one of his 16-ways, and during dirt dive, he said something like, "oh you're on this? That must be a mistake." And I got bumped off in the middle of the dirt dive! I left the DZ fuming, with my finger in the air.

People come up with all kinds of excuses for rudeness and lack of consideration, but there are very few valid ones. If a skydiver has a set agenda, such as 4-way team practice, that's one thing, but even that can be handled tactfully.

Set a good example by being kind and curtious to your fellow human beings in general, and your fellow skydivers in particular. The attitude spreads quickly.

I believe you have my stapler.

[npgraphicdesign 2]

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Normally I would agree with you, but in this instance I don't think you should put this guy in the cocky category because he was jumping with an inexperienced person. Maybe they were trying a new skill and throwing you in the mix would have made it more difficult for them to accomplish that. You never know, but give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

On another day, ask the same guy to do a 2 way with you and see what he says. If he says no again, then I'm sure he's not cocky, he just doesn't like you.

Normally you would agree with me? How did THAT happen?

What a few people don't get is that I had no problem with him saying no...but the way he said it it was cocky and arrogant. The other guy had 45 jumps, I have 109 as of yesterday (and consider myself a complete beginner), and the advanced jumper has quite a few hundred on both of us. I've teaching at a university level for a few years now, and there are different ways you can present something, critique someone's project, respond to someone's remarks, etc.

And Aggie, for the record, they were casually standing there with their rigs on discussing what they would do when I asked to join them, so I wasn't jumping in during or after their dirt dive. After our conversation, they did a dirt dive about 5 minutes later.

Anyways, it's over. As they say in Italian, fugggheeetttaabbouuuttttiiittt!

[npgraphicdesign 2]

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I'm sure there is more to the exchange than you describe, personality clashes etc.

There was a guy, a young doctor who used to show up at the DZ with his trophy girl friend, and basically take over the place. He'd organize biggish dives and grab the more experienced jumpers. It was basically The Jeff Show. I disliked everything about this yuppy scumbag, but still wanted to get on his dives in the worst way, because when he showed up, it was the only thing going on. One day, I was manifest on one of his 16-ways, and during dirt dive, he said something like, "oh you're on this? That must be a mistake." And I got bumped off in the middle of the dirt dive! I left the DZ fuming, with my finger in the air.

People come up with all kinds of excuses for rudeness and lack of consideration, but there are very few valid ones. If a skydiver has a set agenda, such as 4-way team practice, that's one thing, but even that can be handled tactfully.

Set a good example by being kind and curtious to your fellow human beings in general, and your fellow skydivers in particular. The attitude spreads quickly.

Damn...that is bad. And everyone else on the jump went along with you being bumped off? What was his reasoning?

[trig78 0]

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There was a guy, a young doctor who used to show up at the DZ with his trophy girl friend, and basically take over the place. He'd organize biggish dives and grab the more experienced jumpers. It was basically The Jeff Show. I disliked everything about this yuppy scumbag, but still wanted to get on his dives in the worst way, because when he showed up, it was the only thing going on. One day, I was manifest on one of his 16-ways, and during dirt dive, he said something like, "oh you're on this? That must be a mistake." And I got bumped off in the middle of the dirt dive! I left the DZ fuming, with my finger in the air.

I would say that, in your story, you made just one mistake and that is being on ''his'' jumps to begin with. I wouldn't be. Same as I didn't jump for almost ten years for similar reason. F him if he's a douche, or you think he is. You can have plenty of fun on your own or with someone else who's got some selfrespect ;)

[Airviking 0]

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Damn...that is bad. And everyone else on the jump went along with you being bumped off? What was his reasoning?

Yes, it did suck, and being younger and perhaps less wise than now, I let it affect my view on skydiving up to when I finally packed it in (for various reasons) in '88.

I think the real reason I got bumped was because he spotted a late-comer who he prefered for the slot.

I believe you have my stapler.

[jrh 0]

Something I haven't seen brought up yet is how the guy really might have seemed like a jerk, even by most conventional standards, when in his own mind he had no intention of doing so.

When I started hanging out at my dropzone, there was one very experienced jumper who I'd talk to on occasion. He always seemed kind of short and snappy, like he was always impatient and wanting to cut to the chase. I'd fly him and after a jump ask how the spot was, and he just say something like, "Yeah, it was fine, we got back fine," and then go back to packing or whatever. Not a lot of interaction.

The longer I hung around, the more I saw that this guy wasn't at all a jerk, it's just the way he communicates. He talks to his close friends the same way. Now that I've known him for several years, I don't think anything of it.

So my point for the OP is, keep observing the guy in the future and see what happens. Maybe he really is a jerk, or maybe he just came off that way in the moment.

[Airviking 0]

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I would say that, in your story, you made just one mistake and that is being on ''his'' jumps to begin with.

Amen to that, my friend. It was an error made in younger years, when ego got in the way of good judgement. After 25 years of marriage, I no longer have an ego - I just want to have some fun!

I believe you have my stapler.

[npgraphicdesign 2]

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I would say that, in your story, you made just one mistake and that is being on ''his'' jumps to begin with.

Amen to that, my friend. It was an error made in younger years, when ego got in the way of good judgement. After 25 years of marriage, I no longer have an ego - I just want to have some fun!

And just in the skydiving sense, right?

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Don't take it personally. Just check you deodorant and stop farting in the plane!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Airviking 0]

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I would say that, in your story, you made just one mistake and that is being on ''his'' jumps to begin with.

After 25 years of marriage, I no longer have an ego - I just want to have some fun!

And just in the skydiving sense, right?

I'll take it wherever I can get it.

I believe you have my stapler.

[jakee 1,255]

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"Thanks for asking, but we already have a dive plan, may be if I have time later we could do that 3-way".

Nothing, obviously, but there's nothing wrong with this "No that's ok, we'll just keep it at a 2way" either. And this "WTF? This was about 20 minutes before their load, so it wasn't as I was asking to jump at last minute and was messing up their dive plan." IMO shows a lack of understanding of what was in the best interests of the newly licensed guy.

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I have been very lucky for the most part, every one at my DZ has alway gone out of thier way to jump with newbies.

Yeah, and the so called arrogant guy in this example was going out of his way to jump with a newbie as well. Nothing that's been presented here leads me to believe he deserves to be criticised for it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[AggieDave 6]

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And Aggie, for the record, they were casually standing there with their rigs on discussing what they would do when I asked to join them, so I wasn't jumping in during or after their dirt dive. After our conversation, they did a dirt dive about 5 minutes later.

That you saw. It could have been a casual review followed by another dirt dive. An example is when I teach canopy control to people. You may not see the 90 minutes we just spent in the classroom going over concepts and dive flow. You might just see the casual/relaxed review after they geared up and are on a 15-20 minute call. That review wasn't all the work, but it was all you saw.

Something to remember in skydiving is that once people have their rigs on, its over, ask them if you could get on a load with them after the one they're on! It is extremely rude to think that you could walk up to jumpers who already have a dive, already have their gear on and fully expect to be allowed into their skydive at the last minute because you think it is OK.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jclalor 12]

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Yeah, and the so called arrogant guy in this example was going out of his way to jump with a newbie as well. Nothing that's been presented here leads me to believe he deserves to be criticised for it.

[craigbey 0]

Don't lose any sleep over your perceptions of his attitude or lack of courtesy. This cuts both ways...

I have seen very experiened skydivers wander to the loading area or hop on a load by themselves and ask others if they can get in on their skydive. In one example, the skydiver was a recent US Nationals medal-winner and was asking to get in on a planned jump with others while on the ride to altitude. We politely said no. The jumper took it very well and simply hit up another group. Ironically, it was one of his team-mates who was on the plane at the time who made a snide remark about our response.

Far too often, low-timers get excited about the chance to jump with these more experienced skydivers and throw their plans out the door.

You did approach them far enough in advance that they may have been able to change their plans to make it a 3-way, but have some respect for their plans.

[shropshire 0]

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I preferred to eat the rude. '

Rude bits.... he liked to eat the rude bits of people .... just saying

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[swoopfly 5]

I hate to break it to you, but if you plan on sticking around this sport for awhile, this is just the begining for you. Every DZ has this guy as you described. It comes along with the sport,. Whats sad is the only thing that is cool is their skydiving gear, and for some reason this translate into them thinking that they themselves are cool now aswell. So either dont let it get to you, or quit now!

[Airviking 0]

(I'm trying to get work done, but I'm so friggin fascinated by this topic...) It's an interesting sociological scenario: an adult going up to another (stranger) and asking if he can "play". I know I used to have issues with with those scenarios, but I found a reliable group of guys to do most of my jumping with.

We're all a bunch of kids in a sandbox, of all different backgrounds, personalities, and life experiences and values. It's amazing it works at all.

I believe you have my stapler.

[erdnarob 1]

Everything is in the attitude. You found him arrogant. If the experienced jumper wanted to keep it as a two way, he could have said : "We keep it as a two way because it's like a coaching jump". I guess he didn't give you that kind of answer. He could also add that later he would appreciate you to join them. Having a B license and more than hundred jumps makes you able to do formation skydiving.
But don't worry too much. That kind of people is everywhere and is generally a minority. They are very damaging for the sport, its spirit and belly flying retention. Be more determined and avoid those people. If you come at the Summerfest at Skydive Chicago next year, it will be a honor for me to jump with you.
Once in Florida at Z-Hills 2 years ago, I spotted a group of jumpers doing 8 to 10 way and they were doing it for fun. I went to the group organizer, showed him my logbook describing the formations I had done (8, 16, 32, 47, 54, 69 way...) name it. This organizer had no place for me including a friend of mine with similar experience and skill. The worst of all is when I learned that he was canadian like me. You have assholes everywhere even in Canada.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[pinkfairy 0]

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And I got bumped off in the middle of the dirt dive! I left the DZ fuming, with my finger in the air.

Again, try to see it from the other jumper's point of view:

You may be good, but the organizer doesn't know it, and when he's organizing, he's got every right in the world to cut you from his dive. Part of organizing good dives is choosing participants. Some organizers let everyone on, some are more selective. You can't call him arrogant for being selective, he's just making different types of dives that are appreciated by some.

He's doing something productive and organizes. What about you organize smaller jumps with the people who can't get on the selective guy's jumps?

And also: This is a small, small sport. I used to hope that all the arrogant, stupid and cocky skydivers would quit, but that isn't happening. There will always be people I don't like in this sport. but the good thing is that I like the vast majority, and the people I don't like I'll just have to deal with it if I'm going to be in the same plane as them. And skydivers are different, some people will invest a lot of time and money in the sport, others don't. People are interested in different dicsiplines, some like swooping, others couldn't care less. Let them do their thing.

I hope this made sense. I found the advice printed on a sticker that they sold at Square1 useful: "Jump more bitch less".

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[billvon 2,400]

>"No that's ok, we'll just keep it at a 2way."

Might have been a very good idea if the experienced jumper/coach had a specific dive in mind.

>WTF? This was about 20 minutes before their load, so it wasn't as I was
>asking to jump at last minute and was messing up their dive plan.

?? Do you know what their plan was? If not, then how do you know you weren't "messing it up?"

>I simply asked if I could join their 2way, and his response was so full
>of arrogance, it really rubbed me the wrong way.

Based on what he said, there was nothing at all arrogant about it. You don't have the right to get on any jump you want.

[likestojump 3]

Let me throw in the sometimes very necessary "HARDEN THE FUCK UP, CUPCAKE".

These folks paid their $$$ for the jump. They should be free to do whatever they want within the allowed parameters of DZ/UPSA/FAA, blah blah. They don't owe you any other fun jumper a right to jump with them. Whatever their reasons may be, I cannot imagine how "No that's ok, we'll just keep it at a 2way" is a rude response. He just told him that he wants to keep it a two way. No one owes an explanation of WHY - whatever the reasoning may be.

jumping with others is cool.
jumping with new people is cool

but no one is entitled to either.

maybe these dudes have been talking about that two-way throughout the whole workweek, and got their dive plan down.
maybe those dudes are just assholes.

either one doesn't entitle you to a right to jump with them.

[npgraphicdesign 2]

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Let me throw in the sometimes very necessary "HARDEN THE FUCK UP, CUPCAKE".

These folks paid their $$$ for the jump. They should be free to do whatever they want within the allowed parameters of DZ/UPSA/FAA, blah blah. They don't owe you any other fun jumper a right to jump with them. Whatever their reasons may be, I cannot imagine how "No that's ok, we'll just keep it at a 2way" is a rude response. He just told him that he wants to keep it a two way. No one owes an explanation of WHY - whatever the reasoning may be.

jumping with others is cool.
jumping with new people is cool

but no one is entitled to either.

maybe these dudes have been talking about that two-way throughout the whole workweek, and got their dive plan down.
maybe those dudes are just assholes.

either one doesn't entitle you to a right to jump with them.

Well, you and a few others aren't understanding something..I NEVER said i felt i was ENTITLED to a jump with them. All I'm saying is there are different ways to respond and communicate, and that wasn't the best way.

[likestojump 3]

no, I definitely read that part, and that's where the recommendation to HTFU came from :)

it's skydiving - sensitive people don't belong in this sport. You have to be able to tolerate cock-n-balls and tits afterhours, as well as what one may perceive as the wrong tone of voice during the business hours.

Otherwise I recommend to buy two pairs of slacks and take up golfing on the weekends.

In a more PC sense what I mean is that what you took as condescending may not have been meant to be.

[Airviking 0]

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it's skydiving - sensitive people don't belong in this sport. You have to be able to tolerate cock-n-balls and tits afterhours, as well as what one may perceive as the wrong tone of voice during the business hours.

Otherwise I recommend to buy two pairs of slacks and take up golfing on the weekends.

You're the guy I'm talking about! I'm betting you were the playground bully. And, I may be going out on a limb when I say you can't think of a single reason to let someone merge into your lane.

You can't claim this entire sport as your own, just because you aren't mature enough to behave decently. But you certainly have the option of surrounding yourself with like-minded individuals at the DZ.

I believe you have my stapler.