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michaelknote

Startskydiving Middletown Ohio., Taking pics

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So I am going to make this as short and "sweet" as possible. Went yesterday to take a few pics of some friends. I was standing underneath the waiting area were everyone sits before they jump and was told that was too close and needed to be back behind the yellow line. I then looked at the hangers and asked if I could take some photos from over in that area. I was told that was not a possiblity. Then some guy walks up to me and tells me about parachutes how they are dangerous, and how I could get killed. I kept my mouth shut the entire time the guy was feeding me lines of bs reasons why it was not possible to stand "off the field" on the sidelines.


Now the fun parts of the story are this, I fly airplanes on occasion. I also hang around with jumpmasters all the time. So I know some FAA regulations and I can respect what you say but don't feed me lines just because its your businesses bottom line. The reason you mainly have these rules the Rv's in the way of the landing areas, all three of them and the main set up is your businesses charging for photos for the jumps. I don't have any issues for you charging I don't even want to be in your way. The way you handled or handle someone that is taking pics though is a bit absurd. Especially when I personally have paid for some of my friends and family in the past to use your services.



You offer a good service, but the way you handled the situation with someone wanting to take photos, not such a good thing. I wasn't selling the photos, I wasnt doing anything to make profit from them. Also the people that went bought your packages anyway. So as it happens I know some people and ended up sitting off on the side of the airstrip, completely away from everything but still with the ability to actually take some pictures. I don't appreciate it if your telling people they can't be in an area but if I have a hanger rental from the airport that rule does not apply. Further more the amount of ground traffic through that location as far as safety goes made what you said to be a literal joke. I mean seriously, I think much less of your company now for even not providing a place for a photographer. There are shots that your people can get that a regular photographer wouldnt have access to anyway. I think one of your concerns would be a mass of people in an area to take photos. There is a concern with that but if someone is genuine and asking to take some photos, don't feed them safety lines that are not apart of the FAA regulations and not even practical as far as a parachute being able to hurt me standing directly aside a building. If they would have hit me they would have had to go through a building understanding winds and things.



Secondly on a side note something I noticed that is a Major concern is your spotters need a hot lesson because I know something that is against FAA regulations that happened on more than one occasion yesterday is that your jumpers went through clouds on their way down. Thats highly illegal because your not equipped with the right equipment for that. Your ceiling levels were terrible yesterday anyway but still when your skydiver hits the ground and yells out who the hell is the spotter I went through a cloud, maybe thats something you need to review a bit too. The people were nice, I grant them that and as far as business practice goes, definately will go back. As far as the minor details, I would say might want to check back with that. Thanks for a fun ride.

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I don't know anything regarding the specifics of your complaint, but I will say most drop-zones have no problem with spectators taking pics...it's actually a free marketing tool for them.

What they DO sometimes have problems with is allowing someone to be in a 'possible' area of operation interference.

For example you may have been quite safe and out of the way where you wanted to stand and photograph, however there is no way to guarantee you will STAY there and not put yourself or someone else in a hazardous situation.

They don't know you or your level of common sense regarding safety, nor do they have the time or personnel to look over you... so it's just more efficient to keep everyone not actually jumping back to a certain area.

I have seen spectators with a camera step right into the path of a landing jumper, I've seen an observer come out of the aircraft and walk right into a spinning prop...people do unexpected things all the time and shit does happen.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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yea I totally respect that, but the lens I was using there was no way I could have even been close, But the way they had it set up was impossible to even see the landing zone. They had all their rv's lined up directly in front of the drop area. Its because they are charging 90 dollars for skydivers. Yes I have seen some crazy things also as far as people hopping in front of the planes go. Normally though in most drop zones I have been to its never been an issue. First time for everything I guess.

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You could have just edited the original thread, but oh well. (if you were able to delete it, you should have still been able to edit it)

The problem is that a lot of people falsely claim to be pilots, skdivers, whatever and then go where they shouldn't and do stuff that they shouldn't.

I'm not saying that you are making these false claims, but the people who's job it is to keep the idiots out of the way aren't going to take you at your word.

Professional photographers are often the worst offenders at this. They are so focused on "getting the shot" that they put themselves and others in serious danger. Look at some of the off-road races or rally car races. The photogs often are inches off the course, and sometimes on the road.

There is a pretty famous incident where a photographer wanted a really cool shot of a helicopter taking off. After being denied permission to be where he wanted to be, he snuck into a cornfield, and jumped out just as the heli was taking off, directly towards him.
The nose of the heli dropped and the main rotor struck and killed the photog.

If you hadn't made prior arrangements to take your pics, I'm not really surprised they pushed you back.

I've done it more than once at my DZ.

Edit to add: You seem to have been told it wasn't possible to go over by other hangars, owned/rented by pilots not associated with the DZ.

That doesn't surprise me in the least. The skydivers have a hard enough time keeping in the good graces of the rest of the airport "residents". Allowing jumpers or spectators to wander around the other areas is usually prohibited.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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"hen some guy walks up to me and tells me about parachutes how they are dangerous, and how I could get killed. I kept my mouth shut the entire time the guy was feeding me lines of bs reasons why it was not possible to stand "off the field" on the sidelines
Further more the amount of ground traffic through that location as far as safety goes made what you said to be a literal joke. I mean seriously, I think much less of your company now for even not providing a place for a photographer."

So you think that you were being fed a line of bs about you being killed, Tell me what would happen to you if a swooper accidently lost control and plowed into you going 70+ km/h.

You should not come on here bashing great companies that you know nothing about and a sport that you know nothing about. Thats ok if you think "much less of that company" because we think much less of you and your "BS"

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...but the lens I was using there was no way I could have even been close, But the way they had it set up was impossible to even see the landing zone. They had all their rv's lined up directly in front of the drop area. Its because they are charging 90 dollars for skydivers.


Quote



And they don't know you, know less about your camera...and even less about your intentions regarding where else you may want to wander...;)

Again, I wasn't there...but I think you're gonna have a tough sell tryin' to make anyone believe there is some kind of financial conspiracy going on against letting you take photos.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Sorry you had a bad experience. Someone leaving the DZ with bad feelings isn't a good thing for any of us and I hope that you do return and have more positive experiences in the future.

I will begin by saying I have never jumped at MWO, though I jumped at Start when they were at I68. I agree with you that they are nice people.

A little history-

A photographer was hit and killed in the landing area of a prominent dropzone within the last couple of years. He stepped in front of a landing jumper while looking through the camera. It was an emotional nightmare for the jumper he stepped in front of and a warning to us all to keep people as far from landing jumpers as possible.

Spectators have walked into running props, forced skydivers to seriously injure themselves in avoidance maneuvers, and angered the other residents of the airport by wandering around unescorted at many dropzones.

Most any jumper, staff or not, who sees someone without a rig on headed to the landing area will stop them. I saw a jumper ask the airport manager at I68 not to drive his golf cart across the landing area while jumpers were landing, which earned the jumper a cursing from the airport manager, and earned the airport manager my lasting disdain for his immaturity.

As far as FAA guidance goes, in 2007 the FAA made a real push to have all airports work towards eliminating vehicle/pedestrian incidents. The FAA requests that GA airports follow the requirements of Part 139 airports and:

(a) Limit access to movement areas and safety areas only to those pedestrians and ground vehicles necessary for airport operations;
(b) Establish and implement procedures for the safe and orderly access to, and operation in, movement areas and safety areas by pedestrians and ground vehicles, including provisions identifying the consequences of noncompliance with the procedures by an employee, tenant, or contractor; (Sec. 139.329)

It sounds like the people who approached you may not have dealt with you as tactfully as possible. But remember we are concerned for the lives of ourselves, our friends, and you. It is much easier, and preferred buy the FAA, to keep people out of the movement areas than to allow them in and expect them to stay out of the way. .

Finally, please believe me that it isn't about the money. Even the DZs that are really just in the business to get every dime aren't concerned about ground based photographers, because as you say, they are never going to capture the shots from the ground that can be had from the air.

Again, I am very sorry you have a bad experience. The aviation community is small and we all have shared interests to preserve. Alienating our fellow pilots is certainly not in our best interests and I am sure was not anyone's intention.

[Edited for spelling]

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Take your whuffo bullshit sense of entitlement somewhere else. You're at a privately owned and operated business, and the rules that they have set forth to keep spectators safe apply even to you. Just because you occasionally fly airplanes doesn't make you a VIP on the dropzone, nor does it indicate that you have any working knowledge of safely navigating a parachute landing area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-44fMWOoxg&feature=related

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=223

http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/462.shtml

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3658412;search_string=spectator%20injury;#3658412

There are tons more examples around the web. People get hurt and killed messing around in and around the landing area. You don't deserve any special treatment.

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Well as far as you saying I know nothing I do I have lost friends that were skydiving, So I am not sure what you are even implying, it wasnt an issue of you saying its a great company, I believe I didnt bad mouth anyone from the company. I believe I say...and I quote.
" You offer a good service"
" The people were nice, I grant them that and as far as business practice goes, definately will go back."

So for someone that is completely "bashing" the company surprisingly comes with some good comments about them didnt I., tragic.

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Well as it goes, I didnt want to be in the landing zone, so your point is quite null., It was actually not even "near" the landing point. I would never want to be near the landing zone, but thanks for the comment. I never said I had a sense of any sort of entitlement either did I unless you can quote me somewhere. It is a privately owned business but it is a business within an airport and the area that I was asking to stand was not even owned by the company that was trying to regulate where I was standing. It was ultimately a call by the airport which gave me permission anyway. Thanks :)

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yes they normally do, i agree totally with that.,



Just be safe out there and respect their rules for everyones saftey.

You're a said pilot, if someone wondered out while taking off or landing that posed a distraction, that jeopardizes saftey. A needless possible tragedy.

I used to pilot aircraft myself. My first solo, yelled my "clear prop", looked around for people, got in and started it up. Not even 10 seconds later a little kid passed the "pilots only" fence almost in front of me. Another aircraft was taxing in to fuel up close by. I killed my prop, jumped out and grabbed that kid. The other pilot killed his at the same time. Lucky he wasn't in a blind spot. Had some mature choice words with the parents.

I would have to live with that if it turned out wrong even though it wasn't my fault. Rules are for a reason.

Go make some jumps (its a great feeling) and become familiar with what goes on out there. Maybe once they know you're safe they'll let you take pictures. Maybe not, its their DZ.

Be safe, have fun flyingB|

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Start has a policy that all people crossing the red line need to be under full escort of a staff member at all times. The yellow line is our warning line and we ask that no one cross that line and we really enforce the red line. Anyone crossing that red line is expected to be under control of a staff member and have completed the waiver, did you have a completed waiver on file for this year?

The instructors were busy watching out for their students all day and the video team is busy at their job. We do have one full time ground photographer that does capture ground shots and she is the only person that is always in the landing area. She even is using a very long telephoto lens (Canon L glass too B|) to stay a safe distance from the action.

Yesterday we were running two turbine airplanes and had over 135 tandems and multiple AFF scheduled that we were working with in addition to multiple advanced courses running so we did not have any staff just standing around to escort someone around the DZ.

We have had some instances this year where with multiple turbine planes running at the same time someone tried to run out to the landing area to greet their buddy that just landed and they ran in front of a running plane. As staff we have been tasked with eliminating this issue. We have been very strict on crossing of the lines to keep everyone as safe as possible.

I was out yesterday morning and I am pretty sure I saw you sitting next to the hangers on the golf cart with the camera. Without knowing any of your experience or background I would have also asked you to step behind the red line and to stay there since it really is in your highest safety interest.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Its okay I was sitting on the golf cart only after I had been given permission, I was invited to sit there actually. I didn't move from that location either once I was given permission to sit there. If a couple of the Rv's would have given a clear line of sight I would have been able to just in the hanger and wouldn't of had to gone outside at all :D As a side note I felt a bit safe behind the Jeep, Pickup, Motorcyle and everything else that was passing by. In all honesty I completely see your standpoint and I deeply respect that. Safety, insurance and regulation, business, and all the fun things. I wasn't trying to bother anyone with it either, I was there to stay out of the way. Wasn't running out into the field by any means. With the new regulations I figure the Dz will be getting cams in soon enough as far as it goes. More great regulation, but anyway. I hold nothing against where you all stand, its fine really. I just felt that being addressed could have been a little different. I went up to the desk asked and was fine with the answer. I didn't push it. I then had a member of your staff come to explain to me a bit later. I really didn't need a follow up and I say that kindly also since you can't hear the tone that I am typing. I had already been given an answer and accepted it and moved on. The only reason that I ended up sitting by the hangers was that I was invited. Seriously though I had a lens good enough to never be within 1k feet but the fun rvs. Parking and space just another fun thing right. Anyway thanks for your time. :)

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Yes, as Phreezone said, we have to treat everyone the same. That means, everyone stands behind the line, regardless. Many times we have tandem students bringing out family members, and when you do 100+ tandems a day like we do, that can easily add up to 500+ spectators throughout the day. To make sure everyone stays safe, all staff knows to enforce everyone to stay behind the lines at all times.

Also, yes our campers may restrict some view of the landing area, but the fenced in spectator viewing area actually sticks out PAST the campers (on the far side of the loading area) and provides the best view IMO. Yes, you might not get to see your friend/relative land, but there's also no promise that they're going to land up front near the hangers. We have a huuuge landing area, and it's our instructors job to land the students in a clear and open area, even if that means not in the main tandem landing area. This happens every weekend.

I'm sorry you left with a less than 100% experience, next time you come back, make a jump with us. There's nothing obstruction the view of the landing area from above :)
Dream my life, live my dream

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Well 17 of my friends jumped and actually my "blind" mother jumped there a couple weeks ago ill keep it in mind thanks lol



Hey Mike, do a google search of the photographer fatality at the World Freefall Convention. He didn't want to listen either.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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17 of my friends jumped and actually my "blind" mother jumped there a couple weeks ago



How about you ask them what they thought of their experience at Start, because that's really all that matters. Believe it or not, the DZ is there it service it's customers, dealing with spectators is an afterthought.

Get over yourself. It's a busy DZ with 100+ customers on any given day, and if all of them bring spectators, crowd control becomes a real issue. By far the easiest way to do that (and how it works in most of the world) is to restrict people to the areas where they are either qualified or needed to be.

Nobody cares if you're a pilot, or have friends who are jumpmasters, or can read the FARs. It's a place of business where people are trying to work, and fun jumpers are trying to enjoy themselves and don't need to worry about non-jumpers wandering around them and their gear.

Want access? Pony up the cash, and get an A license. Then you can go anywhere you want.

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Want access? Pony up the cash, and get an A license. Then you can go anywhere you want.



Well he would have to stay out of the D license LZ & PRO rated areas with only an A license... Don't be going around tell these type of people the wrong info Dave or we'll never hear the end of it!


:P
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Want access? Pony up the cash, and get an A license. Then you can go anywhere you want.



Well he would have to stay out of the D license LZ & PRO rated areas with only an A license... Don't be going around tell these type of people the wrong info Dave or we'll never hear the end of it!

Well, he might be able to STAND there, but they won't let him LAND there. :P
:P

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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