Fast learners

[wmw999 2,122]

I find it interesting that someone who wants to learn how to drive learns on a home car as a rule; even when you go to racing school, you learn on something besides an F1 car.

By the time someone starts driving fast cars, they generally have hundreds of hours of driving the family station wagon (or whatever).

How many hours of flying canopies should you have before downsizing to something that doesn't give you any forgiveness?

Even fast learners generally went through most of the grades in school, too.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[cocheese 0]

There should be a test to determine what size canopy one is allowed to jump. These numbers should go on a card which is signed by a dzo.

Like proof of insurance, it should be required to buy/jump a smaller canopy.

The new jumpers can thank those with mad skills for these changes.

[david3 0]

Actually I see parallels with fast canopies and fast cycles. People new to motorcycling can (and do) walk into the showroom and buy cycles they have no business being on. I believe you see it with cars too, someone with a newly minted license driving way too fast for their experience level. You read about them in the paper all the time. And when they are told to slow down and take it easy, they say pretty much the same thing that new canopy pilots with mad skills say, “I’m different”.
I think you would see it with more with fast cars but it can be cost prohibitive.

[davelepka 4]

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People new to motorcycling can (and do) walk into the showroom and buy cycles they have no business being on.

In the US, yes. In many other countries, they have tiered licensing systems where you start off with a restricted license that limits the size of the bike you're allowed to ride, and how/when you can ride it. The only way to advance is to hold the basic license for a fixed time period (like a year) and take a continuing education class. There are typically 3 or 4 tiers, with only the top tier being unlimited.

Interestingly enough, the same can be said for canopies, where most other countries have tighter controls over what size and type of canopy you can jump based on your experience level.

Having a 'test out' system wouldn't work for canopies, as testing someone is limited to the conditions at the time of the test, and the opinion of the test administrator. A much better control would be similar to the tiered licensing system, where you have to remain on a tier until a certain amount of time has past, and you have taken an advanced canopy control class. It wouldn't be hard to imagine a series of 4 tiers, all with a year in between and a canopy control class to move up. At a minimum, this would ensure that jumpers have at least 4 years in the sport and have taken 3 canopy control classes, each tailored toward the performance level they're trying to advance to.

Sure, some jumpers will have more jumps when they advance, and some will have less. In the end, it's a minimum requirement, with no maximum of any kind. Jumpers are free not to downsize if they don't desire, but if they do, at least they are not 'free' to do so, it will be done with some level of sense and oversight.

[trig78 0]

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In the US, yes. In many other countries, they have tiered licensing systems....

Same goes for cars, you can't just drive anything you like.

But in some, not so well standing countries, it's common to see a guy with 100+ jumps flying something like Katana at 1.5+ WL ...and wearing a wingsuit There are no rules in those countries because there's not many skydivers which is why not many are killing themselves, which is why nobody cares.

facebook.com/trig78

[Ron 7]

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It wouldn't be hard to imagine a series of 4 tiers, all with a year in between and a canopy control class to move up. At a minimum, this would ensure that jumpers have at least 4 years in the sport and have taken 3 canopy control classes, each tailored toward the performance level they're trying to advance to.

I'd prefer jump numbers on type.... That way an aggressive pilot that is jumping a bunch can advance at a fast rate, but not the guy making 50 jumps a year for 4 years.

And I am still a big fan of a practical test administered by the S&TA.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[davelepka 4]

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I'd prefer jump numbers on type.... That way an aggressive pilot that is jumping a bunch can advance at a fast rate, but not the guy making 50 jumps a year for 4 years.

And I am still a big fan of a practical test administered by the S&TA.

The truth is, a combination of jumps and time are what should be used. Something like '100 jumps and 1 year minimum on each tier'. The only thing it takes to make a shit-ton of jumps in a short time is money, and that's no indicator of skill. With two rigs and a packer, you could make an easy 20 jumps a week, and even at that rate I would argue that you might want to hang onto a canopy for more than 5 weeks. Keep in mind that a jumper doing that would have a limited number of days they would have jumped in, and a limited amount of exposure to the DZ, and the sport in general.

If you do 5 jumps per day over 20 days, that's 20 unique days at the DZ, compared to half of that for a guy who does 10 jumps per over 10 days.

In terms of the test, as long as it's in conjunction with the min time/jump requirements, that's fine by me. My problem is with the 'test out' idea that some people (generally low timers) seem to support. I distinctly remember having some mind-blowing good days when I was learning to swoop where I would crank out 10 out of 10 'perfect' swoops, and if I had been tested on those days, I would have passed hands down. I also remeber days where I narrowly avoided terra-firma several times, and just had bad judgement all day long, so my test results would have been different on those days.

[nigel99 144]

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I'd prefer jump numbers on type.... That way an aggressive pilot that is jumping a bunch can advance at a fast rate, but not the guy making 50 jumps a year for 4 years.

And I am still a big fan of a practical test administered by the S&TA.

Jump numbers on type and with a currency requirement sounds like a good idea. The only hesitation I have, is it might make you feel like a beginner/loser if you stay on a conservative wing. I know that I am driven to get licenses and ratings. Would being on a low canopy license increase my desire to downsize?

Ultimately it comes down to culture. Currently being on a 210/190 is uncool and you are told you will want to downsize. Maybe the new low bulk fabrics will allow small harnesses with more reasonable sized main and reserves?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[riggerrob 558]

"

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... I distinctly remember having some mind-blowing good days ... I also remember days where I narrowly avoided terra-firma several times, and just had bad judgement all day long, so my test results would have been different on those days.

"

.......................................................................

Congratulations, you have advanced to the second stage of learning, because you are now CONSCIOUS THAT YOU ARE INCOMPETENT.

If you read the other thread (keyword "Patty Wagstaff") you will learn about 4 stages of learning:
1. unconscious that they are incompetent
2. conscious that they are incompetent
3. conscious that they are competent
4. unconscious that they are competent (aka. zen).

Sadly, far too many young North Americans get stuck at level 1.

[FastRon 0]

In reply to the fast car analogy- so true. Ask your car insurance agent re: certain cars- There are cars that get stacked within 100 miles or purchase on a regular basis.

[-Wildchild- 0]

In france, depending on your weight and number of jumps, you are limited for the size of your canopy.

Here is the link to our system:

http://www.ffp.asso.fr/IMG/pdf/U_surface_minimale_des_voiles.pdf

the last page of the document shows you the regulation: weight in kilos of course

It works pretty well !! you are sure not to be under a too small canopy for your skills !


Blue sky !

[pchapman 261]

If the race car analogy is to be used, my opinion is that one should expand it:

There is a difference between just trying out the race car a few times, and driving it all the time, or actually driving it in a race.

There's much less risk to jumping something small (especially in the risk to others) if it is away from other canopies, and one is flying in not too aggressive a manner.

I like sticking up for the concept of being able to try out different parachutes without all sorts of arbitrary limits -- whether or not it is the proper parachute to be using for one's day to day jumps or for progressing to swooping competition.

[david3 0]

I’m not a big fan of legislating safety, organizations or governments protecting me from myself. If I am endangering someone else, by all means enforce laws to stop me. If not, teach me, nag me, berate me or ignore me but don’t restrict me. Let me make the choice. Educate, don’t legislate.

[davelepka 4]

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I’m not a big fan of legislating safety, organizations or governments protecting me from myself. If I am endangering someone else, by all means enforce laws to stop me. If not, teach me, nag me, berate me or ignore me but don’t restrict me. Let me make the choice. Educate, don’t legislate

While that sounds very patriotic, the 'American way' hasn't exactly been working too well. The simple fact is that the majority of other countries have some sort of 'official' oversight in the areas of canopy control and selection, and they also have a lower rate of open-canopy incidents than the US.

The problem with your suggestion is that new jumpers don't even know what they don't know. No amount of education can replace the lessons learned over time and experience.

Do you really think that anyone jumping the US today doesn't know that open canopy incidents are on top of the fatality list? Is there anyone here not familiar with the idea of starting at 1 to 1 WL, and working your way up from there? Even the canopies themselves having warnings and guidelines printed on the label, the same label that's face up, looking right at you everytime you pack.

People are educated, the information is out there and readily available, but everyone thinks they know better, or they think they are better, or who knows what they think, but people continue to make bad choices in the area of equipment selection.

As far as what you're a 'fan of' or not is of little consequence here. With 13 years in the sport, nobody is looking to control you, and truthfully, with 13 years in, you have proven that you don't need to be controlled anyway. You made it much further than the average jumper who quits the sport within 5 or 7 years.

My ideas aren't intended for you, it's for the new jumpers of today. Some of them might be like you and not need any oversight, but the majority are not. Just lay down the law, tough out a year or two of complaining from the new guys who think we're trying to 'hold them back', and the idea will take hold. Soon enough, new jumpers won't even remember or know that you used to be able to jump 'whatever', and they'll just accept the idea of some basic limitation and educational requirements as the 'status quo' and that will be that.

[BrokenR1 0]

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My ideas aren't intended for you, it's for the new jumpers of today. Some of them might be like you and not need any oversight, but the majority are not. Just lay down the law, tough out a year or two of complaining from the new guys who think we're trying to 'hold them back', and the idea will take hold. Soon enough, new jumpers won't even remember or know that you used to be able to jump 'whatever', and they'll just accept the idea of some basic limitation and educational requirements as the 'status quo' and that will be that.

Doesn't matter who your ideas are for they are still intrusive. I don't want to be legislated just because you'll feel bad if I kill myself. Your would be 'status quo' is the problem. Let people be responsible for themselves and any would be problems will sort themselves out.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[davelepka 4]

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I don't want to be legislated just because you'll feel bad if I kill myself. Your would be 'status quo' is the problem. Let people be responsible for themselves and any would be problems will sort themselves out.

Genius. Given any thought to the backlash from you killing yourself on the same DZ I'm trying to work/play? Bad press, cops all over the place, lawyers oozing out from under rocks, other jumpers having to witness your stupidity.

Yeah, you sound like a considerate, well thought-out individual, and I can see why people would rather do things your way then to side with me and my 'crazy' ideas for logical downsizing progressions and continuing education. What ever was I thinking?!?!

[BrokenR1 0]

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I don't want to be legislated just because you'll feel bad if I kill myself. Your would be 'status quo' is the problem. Let people be responsible for themselves and any would be problems will sort themselves out.

Genius. Given any thought to the backlash from you killing yourself on the same DZ I'm trying to work/play? Bad press, cops all over the place, lawyers oozing out from under rocks, other jumpers having to witness your stupidity.

Yeah, you sound like a considerate, well thought-out individual, and I can see why people would rather do things your way then to side with me and my 'crazy' ideas for logical downsizing progressions and continuing education. What ever was I thinking?!?!

You were thinking you should legislate everything and everybody to conform with your way of thinking. Very selfish. Your mindset is what's wrong with our society now.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[davelepka 4]

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You were thinking you should legislate everything and everybody to conform with your way of thinking. Very selfish. Your mindset is what's wrong with our society now.

I'm not sure where you got 'everything and everybody' from, all I'm talking about is the issue of canopy control education and canopy selection for new jumpers in the US. I might not know 'everything about everyone', but I do feel qualified to speak on the issues surrounding canopy control and selection for newer jumpers.

I'm also not sure how you jump to the conclusion, based on my views of this one issue, that I'm what's wrong with society. It's a documented problem (open canopy incidents) with severe consequnces (death/permanent injury), and you think that trying to acknowledge and eliminate that problem is what's wrong with society?

You don't think that your solution of letting 'problems sort themselves out' is a bit less humane then my solution of trying to prevent open canopy incidents?

Thanks for further 'explaining' yourself, and further proving my point.

[BrokenR1 0]

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I'm not sure where you got 'everything and everybody' from, all I'm talking about is the issue of canopy control education and canopy selection for new jumpers in the US. I might not know 'everything about everyone', but I do feel qualified to speak on the issues surrounding canopy control and selection for newer jumpers.

I'm also not sure how you jump to the conclusion, based on my views of this one issue, that I'm what's wrong with society. It's a documented problem (open canopy incidents) with severe consequnces (death/permanent injury), and you think that trying to acknowledge and eliminate that problem is what's wrong with society?

You don't think that your solution of letting 'problems sort themselves out' is a bit less humane then my solution of trying to prevent open canopy incidents?

Thanks for further 'explaining' yourself, and further proving my point.

Everything and everybody comes from you feeling bad and making a law because of that. Now if people were dropping out of the sky and landing on others, their cars, their houses, etc I could understand a law about jumping locations or similar but not when they're only a risk to themselves.

I'm all for promoting safety and if a dz wants to enforce rules then fine. But that is much different then "hey I feel bad so lets make a law". That is where I see your mentality so no jumping to conclusions there.

You want an example? I ride motorcycles, always in helmet and at least a jacket and gloves. Used to only be in full leathers even. When I see guys riding around without a helmet I think they're stupid. I advise new riders of the benefits of gear and push friends to wear it as well. But I will never try to force my opinions on others especially in the form of laws. If I feel that strongly about what another is doing I merely won't ride with them.

I don't care how experienced you are nor how well a problem is documented as it has nothing to do with my belief that legislation is not the answer. If you're scared of backlash from being sued then fix the actual problem which is the legal system.

I do not think my solution is at all inhumane. Quite the opposite. I think empowering people to be responsible for themselves is more humane. Sorry but I'm not willing to give up my freedoms so easily.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[MariusM 0]

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I do not think my solution is at all inhumane. Quite the opposite. I think empowering people to be responsible for themselves is more humane. Sorry but I'm not willing to give up my freedoms so easily.

Which freedoms? To jump Katana at 200 jumps? One can find a number of such examples in dz.com. People talk to such jumpers, sometimes call them stupid, yell at them they will die, but nothing changes.

Somehow noone complains when law prohibits 10-year old from driving a car. How is canopy piloting different? Sure, many people use conservative judgement and wait until they get more experienced. You don't need any laws for them. However, there are still many of those who don't.

[BrokenR1 0]

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Which freedoms? To jump Katana at 200 jumps?

Yes that would be a type of freedom.

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People talk to such jumpers, sometimes call them stupid, yell at them they will die, but nothing changes.

And?

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Somehow noone complains when law prohibits 10-year old from driving a car. How is canopy piloting different?

Because children are different. Children are still developing the ability to make decisions. When they are adults it changes. Even though many adults never learn how to make good decisions on a regular basis they were at least given enough time to have a chance. They can still drive a car on private property.

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Sure, many people use conservative judgement and wait until they get more experienced. You don't need any laws for them. However, there are still many of those who don't.

True but I still don't feel the need for more laws for those with poor judgement when they can only hurt themselves.

People die skydiving. How would you feel if they tried to make it illegal? It would save lives right? Of course I'm not for anything like that either. There's a line, there's always a line. Sometimes it's just hard to find.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[nigel99 144]

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Because children students are different. Children students are still developing the ability to make decisions. When they are adults experienced it changes. Even though many adults never learn how to make good decisions on a regular basis they were at least given enough time to have a chance.

The flaw in your logic is that by extension, we should be able to do what we like. As adults someone should be allowed to arrive at the dz and jump with no training, because that is their "right".

The problem is that we have defined a student as someone with less than an A license. The reality is that while you are continuing to learn, you are a student. Some disciplines require hundreds of jumps in order to qualify to become a student.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[BrokenR1 0]

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The flaw in your logic is that by extension, we should be able to do what we like. As adults someone should be allowed to arrive at the dz and jump with no training, because that is their "right".

There is now flaw there. We should be able to do as we like. However your overextending yourself since I never said nor implied that jumping with no training is their right. You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. When you jump you affect the pilot, other air traffic, and targets on the ground. This is no longer only affecting you.

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The problem is that we have defined a student as someone with less than an A license. The reality is that while you are continuing to learn, you are a student. Some disciplines require hundreds of jumps in order to qualify to become a student.

That's not trying to protect someone from themselves.

If you were to argue that someone jumping too small of a canopy puts them at risk of landing on you or running into you in the air then I might give some weight to your argument. You're not going to convince me with arguments of hurting ones self though validating legislation.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[FastRon 0]

From the bleachers- Amen Nigel. and FWIW- when we stop being 'students', with nothing left to learn, shouldn't we move on to the next 'best' thing? Not being trite or dogmatic, just saying...

[Ron 7]

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I’m not a big fan of legislating safety, organizations or governments protecting me from myself. If I am endangering someone else, by all means enforce laws to stop me. If not, teach me, nag me, berate me or ignore me but don’t restrict me. Let me make the choice. Educate, don’t legislate.

If you are jumping out of your own aircraft onto your own property by yourself.... You are free to do pretty much whatever you want.

But when you are jumping with others.... It becomes a group problem.

When you are jumping out of someone else's aircraft onto someone else's property... It becomes their problem. They are free to allow it if they want.

In 2011, in the US alone, four deaths were due to a collision. In 2010 in the US: Six.

So it is a group problem unless you are by yourself on your own property out of your own aircraft.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334