Inappropriate student canopies for lightweight people.

[Belgian_Skygirl 0]

Student canopies should be more forgiving in general and therefor they are student canopies. Whether they are huge manta's or small student canopies. They should be manufactored forgiving. I know I once sprankled my ankles as well, but while suddenly a wind came op and blow me backwards on the moment my feet were about to touch the ground :(. I still was not standing on my feet, so I put down my feet, and stepped backwards as I was flying backwards. But falling with smaller canopies happens with a higher speed I guess, and of course, they are more reactive. So it is true they are less forgiving. I never said they weren't and I completely agree with you. However... don't you think that a fat guy that flies a manta lands faster, is less a subject to wind that a tini person below 50 kilo's flying the same student canopie? This is what the discussion is about. The fact me downsizing is just a way to say that I am less subject to wind with a smaller canopy. It was the same when I was still a student. You know, my fellow jumpers watched me while landing, went in to take a cup of coffe, and still found me in the air after they fetched their coffee? I am not exaggerating. Of course... I do not fly student canopies any more because there aren't smaller ones at our dz, so I had to do something and under guidance I did.

I know you are no instructor and I didn't want to offend you. I just wanted to say that i take only downsize under guidance of an instructor.

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No dive, like skydive... wanna bet on it?

[nicknitro71 0]

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I know of at least 3 cases fairly recently (different DZ's) in the courts (students claiming negligence) due to the student being seriously injured due to being put out in too high a wind with too big a canopy by people who should have known better.

So it's OK to give students smaller canopies and let them jump in high winds

If the winds are too high for a .45 WL it does not make it right to let students jump at .75, just my 0.02.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Finn 0]

I'm brand new at this, weigh 175 without a rig, and am jumping with a Manta 288. I'm having the same issues as mentioned here with regards to penetration. On one hand- it is keeping me very vigilant with regards to picking my exit spot and tracking, and the canopy IS very forgiving with my landings. On the other hand- I've found myself unable to make it to areas I'm aiming for and sometimes even pushed backwards. My fragile ego has taken a pounding and I'm sure the farmer is getting sick of me in his corn.
I'm self supervised and will be looking for my own rig soon. I would like to start off conservatively but would like more penetration. Are my issues more likely skill or equipment related?

[labrys 0]

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Are my issues more likely skill or equipment related?

Only someone with lots of experience with students and who's watched you setup your pattern could answer that with any authority. Please ask your instructors.

Owned by Remi #?

[kelpdiver 2]

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If the winds are too high for a .45 WL it does not make it right to let students jump at .75, just my 0.02.

What's the difference in foward speed between the two? I never went lower than .8, and in winds right at the BSR threshhold (probably went just over), I landed vertically. So if .8 can just handle 16mph, what can .45 do?

[dragon2 0]

I have an exit weight of 150 lbs, maybe slightly more when I was a student , but I've got 50 jumps on mata's 288 and skymasters 280 and 230. WL on a 280 is about 0.45 for me. I never had any trouble landing on the right field, even with more wind. The one time I landed out was when I exited before the field and had to get back against the wind which I couldn't, but after that I learned to spot

175 w/o gear isn't that lightweight, most students here don't have any trouble landing their mantas in the right spot, so....

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Finn 0]

Thanks. I'm not a lightweight? (sucking in my gut) My missed landings have both been in higher winds, so I'm hoping it's a lack of experience under canopy and can easily be corrected.

[Witelli 0]

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No it's not irresponsible, and people say it because many many times there are considerations to take into an account that a person on an internet forum won't know about. This is especially true, when the person asking for advice is a student, because there's a lot they don't know and they can easily leave out information that a person needs to know about in order to give safe advice.

Mark, I don't think you read my whole post. I'm simply saying that there comes a point where we have to do our own research so we can talk "with" our instructors as Trae said. Of course people will leave out things, that's why you should talk to 10 people, start a thread, get some of other people's thoughts. Then when you get to the DZ, you can have a somewhat educated discussion with your instructor and ask him the right questions. I think that way you could turn a short answer into a conversation that you will get more out of.

[marks 0]

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Often these newer DZ's are run by people without a long term knowledge or experience of skydiving... eg like with non GPS spotting.

actually, the problem is more "caused by" and "due to" gps spotting. nobody knows how to spot anymore because they RELY on the gps. spotting isn't hard if you know how to do it. relying on a gps for spotting will get you hurt.

but thats another topic.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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actually, the problem is more "caused by" and "due to" gps spotting. nobody knows how to spot anymore because they RELY on the gps. spotting isn't hard if you know how to do it. relying on a gps for spotting will get you hurt.

I was wondering when someone was going to point out that this is a spotting issue, not (usually) an issue of a too large student canopy.

If an instructor does not understand that the spot for students is sensitive to wingloading, lightly loaded canopies are likely to often overshoot.

I agree that a reliance on GPS is a contributing factor. Over the past few years or so, many students are not even taught to spot. Some of these students have gone on to become instructors with poor spotting skills.

There is definitely a problem when we place the blame for this situation on canopies that are too large. Some students are going to screw up one or more of their student (and beyond) landings. There is very good logic behind the idea that mistakes are less costly when they occur at a lower speed.

[MarkM 0]

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Mark, I don't think you read my whole post. I'm simply saying that there comes a point where we have to do our own research so we can talk "with" our instructors as Trae said. Of course people will leave out things, that's why you should talk to 10 people, start a thread, get some of other people's thoughts. Then when you get to the DZ, you can have a somewhat educated discussion with your instructor and ask him the right questions. I think that way you could turn a short answer into a conversation that you will get more out of.

The problem is, you don't know what you don't know, I don't know what you don't know, but your instructor having met, talked, taught and jumped with you, knows what you don't know. That makes him the right person to be giving you advice.

Once you're off student status and get in some more jumps, you'll learn more about what you don't know and that makes it safer for others to give you advice.

And while you might not take advice from here and go out and practice it without the consent of your instructor, other people will and have done so.

[Witelli 0]

Point taken. Thank you.

[Belgian_Skygirl 0]

Nobody stated that it is ok to put out a student in high winds.

This discussion is not about making students to jump in high winds: to clear things out: this shouldn't be allowedIt is about student material that should be adapted to a person (in ideal circumstances)..

However... during my AFF course I had an exit weight of 105 lb... Please find below link to a table I found for student canopies (ZP Manta):

http://www.flightconcepts.com/zpmanta.html

When you run through this table, you see the maximum wingloading for each size of the ZP Manta. Smalles Manta's seem to exist and are made for the needs of a student. It is a characteristic of the ZP. I had to learn to jump with the ZP Manta 290 just like the other students, which is made for for a maximum suspended weight of 290 LBS, with an exit weight of 105 LB, I could weight almost 3 times as much and still be jumping this huge canopy. So with a litte bit of wind, I was grounded already. Of course... it was the right decision for an instructor to take! I completely agree, an instructor must not only take into consideration the weather circumstances, but the gear as well. Someone with an exit weight of 200 lb had to use the same canopy. I went through this stage without any serious problems, I once sprankled my ankle due to a too big canopy and than it was decided by my instructors that I should downsize to at least a 170. According to my lightweight experience (though I don't have that much jumps like most of you) I experienced typical problems due to being that light, which for some of you only appears in strong winds.

I think it would have been better to have learnt to land a smaller ZP manta canopy (for students): it would have been much better for my self esteam (which is ok now) Being blown away in normal wheather conditions is not fun when one is stressed and students are more likely to be stressed. So a real lightweight jumper could only jump when it is windstill or with very very very little wind. Other students can improve as they can bear a bit more wind . A girl at our dz has got an exit weight below 100 lb and she is terrified to jump as she is more subject to turbulence while landing. There is not enough weight in the scale. At the end, the continued her course with a fury. Things went better, but still she hardly descended.

I made a calculation. A person with an exit weight of 110 lb should jump a ZP Manta with a canopy for max. 159 lb suspended weight (which of course does not exist for a student canopy as a small canopy is far more reactive) when compared with a 200 lb person under a ZP Manta 290 (max susped weight of 290). i made a calculation. I don't have the experience to know if that is ok or not. That is something for an instructor. As the lines are shorter, a small canopy becomes more reactive, and we should not forget that.

Don't understand me wrong, I am not saying a student must jump a very small canopy, but for the really lightweight people, there is a choice between the ZP Manta 185, the 200 and the 230 and there are dz's that have a wide range of student canopies, other dz's haven't. A 280 is far too huge.

This is what the discussion is about according to me.

I understand that a dropzone must take into consideration the costs and for one very tiny person a year, I perfectly understand that buying such material is nos cost efficient.

I am certainly not pleading to give a student a very small canopy that is far too reactive for his or hers experiency level, I am pleading for giving them the same learning curve. Being grounded in normal wheather circumstances when other students are allowed to jump is not good for practice, as in the beginning it is very important to jump regularly for your own safety. being grounded most of the time is not good for one's self esteem and practice. With a smaller canopy those people should be able to jump in normal weather. Of course, as I stated before: when there is no material available, I completely agree with instructors to not make the student jump when he or she risks to be blown backwards/away.

This is my 2 cents.

And yes, before all the canopies were big, and all of us had to go through this stage and I am not saying it isn't the case. I just wanted to bring under the attention that I agree due to my experience with the point of view of the starter of this topic. I don't want to complaint, because I am through this stage and it went well, I just wanted to tell the way I feel, even though I am not that experienced like most of you.

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No dive, like skydive... wanna bet on it?

[phoenixlpr 0]

So? You have written this dozen of times already. WL means speed too. That big canopy will descend with you slower and you can have slower touch down speed too. It true that you might have less control , harder toggle pressure, but you can not hurt yourself so easily either.

[riggerrob 561]

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So? You have written this dozen of times already. WL means speed too. That big canopy will descend with you slower and you can have slower touch down speed too. It true that you might have less control , harder toggle pressure, but you can not hurt yourself so easily either.

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Agreed.
Since it is impossible for most DZs to afford every possible size of student gear, they are going to be "off" when sizing gear for the smallest or largest students.
DZOs tend to err on the side of caution. If they give small students canopies that are too big, those tiny students will land/arrive at the scene of the accident slower.
Slower equals fewer injuries.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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f they give small students canopies that are too big, those tiny students will land/arrive at the scene of the accident slower.

I know of one drop zone that consistently puts students out on Goliaths (395 sq ft) for their first AFF jumps, without problems.

[kelpdiver 2]

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However... during my AFF course I had an exit weight of 105 lb...

Do you really weigh 105lb while fully geared with a Manta 290 on your back? That would make your naked weight in the range of 75lbs (34kg).

If true, well, yeah, rental gear is going to be a challenge for you. I'm not sure how spotting is going to help you deal with any level of wind. Any of the DZs I go to might have wind windows that would allow you to do a jump a day, and not necessary at the same time each day.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I'm not sure how spotting is going to help you deal with any level of wind.

How could a proper spot not be beneficial? lighter loadings require longer spots. If the student is given a proper spot, they will not overshoot the landing area. If they overshoot, the spot was too short.

I've seen too many student jumps at very low wingloadings, and land in their designated landing area with minimal radio assistance to believe that a large canopy causes students to overshoot the landing area.

[Reginald 0]

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I once sprankled my ankle due to a too big canopy

Okay, I bite. Tell me how too big a canopy was the problem not your canopy skills.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[kelpdiver 2]

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How could a proper spot not be beneficial? lighter loadings require longer spots. If the student is given a proper spot, they will not overshoot the landing area. If they overshoot, the spot was too short.

If they're flying slower than the wind, no spot is going to fix that problem. There have been several posts saying that more nylon is always safer, and it just isn't so. Students shouldn't be going up in wind/canopy combinations that require landing backwards.

If she's really loading it at .36, it doesn't take much wind. Couple that with the typical 5500ft opening for AFF and I don't see spotting as much of a solution if she has to exit last and hold into the wind just to back towards the LZ. I remember some very interesting winds in the upper part of canopy flight, ones that I could barely make progress against until I dropped below 2500.

It's an extreme circumstance, relevent to few people. But to her, it certainly is. Do some of you live in parts where wind is not common? I wonder if there is a disconnect because of different geography. Training 3 miles from the coast, wind holds were holding pretty even with not on an hourly basis.

[MarkM 0]

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If they're flying slower than the wind, no spot is going to fix that problem.

Heh, tell that to the guys that use to jump rounds.

[labrys 0]

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If they're flying slower than the wind, no spot is going to fix that problem.

Sir Isaac Newton just rolled in his grave.

Owned by Remi #?

[tso-d_chris 0]

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If they're flying slower than the wind, no spot is going to fix that problem.

With respect to not overshooting the landing area, a better spot is exactly what is needed to fix that problem.

With respect to landing with a forward ground speed? No, that is not a spotting issue, nor is it a canopy issue, it is a wind issue. High winds should be avoided with students, and PLFs should be well learned and practiced. Strong winds are no reason to put a student out on a canopy they may not be ready for yet.

A minor mistake on a huge canopy is unlikely to pose a serious threat of injury. Mistakes on smaller canopies happen at higher speeds. Higher speeds increase the likelihood of those mistakes requiring medical attention.

[Witelli 0]

Since students shouldn't be flying in winds higher than 14mph their wingloading/canopy combination should enable them to AT LEAST penetrate a 14mph head wind. If they are loaded less than that I would think that would be somewhat dangerous (ex. trying to land while going backwards). I don't know how to calculate penetration vs. wingloading but I'm sure the canopy manufacturers do. If DZ's and students adhere to the 14mph rule and your canopy wingloading should allow you to penetrate that wind, and the spot is sufficiently upwind, there shouldn't be a problem. Is it that simple? (for minimum wing loading anyway)

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Since students shouldn't be flying in winds higher than 14mph their wingloading/canopy combination should enable them to AT LEAST penetrate a 14mph head wind. If they are loaded less than that I would think that would be somewhat dangerous (ex. trying to land while going backwards). I don't know how to calculate penetration vs. wingloading but I'm sure the canopy manufacturers do. If DZ's and students adhere to the 14mph rule and your canopy wingloading should allow you to penetrate that wind, and the spot is sufficiently upwind, there shouldn't be a problem. Is it that simple? (for minimum wing loading anyway)

Ideally, yes, you are right. Unfortunately, winds are not always constant, and the anticipated landing winds are much lower than the actual winds on landing. A backwards landing is not the end of the world. It's not something you try to have, but it happens from time to time. It is highly unlikely to be the hardest landing you experience in your skydiving career.

My point in this thread has been that some people were claiming too big canopies were keeping people from landing in the designated landing area, and that was negligence on the part of the instructors, when in fact that is a symptom of a poor spot.

I am not trying to say everyone should start out on a 395 sq ft. Goliath. Such a canopy is not necessarily a bad idea, either, for early students.